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Old 1st July 2012, 11:29   #91
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Interesting post. However, I think (based on personal experience) that the D1 segment cars are losing out to the D2 segment / Fortuner / lower end luxury segment rather than to the C2 segment. The percentage price differential between C2/D1/D2 has not changed materially in the last 8-9 years (go back to 2003-04 when the NHC was Rs. 8 lakhs OTR, the Octavia was Rs 13 lakh and the Accord Rs. 17 lakhs, which is not very different from today's price differentials). However, for people in upper middle management levels, buying a D1 sedan or luxury car was unthinkable, those were reserved for "promoters" or CEOs only. Today, the Superb / 3 Series etc have become perfectly acceptable middle management cars, and the same reticence applies only to buying a 7 series / S class / A8. C2 sales have risen, but I think that is more the natural upgrade from B2 rather than people down trading from D1.
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Old 4th July 2012, 10:51   #92
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Well I have driven a City, SX4 and Altis (both Manual and Auto)

I am almost shocked to see performance of a car being compared on horsepower alone - that ways an A4 would not be worth much more than an altis

The automatics have nearly same power specs (1798 cc) and not much of a diff in 0-100/60. But the car costs 2x
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Old 5th July 2012, 11:47   #93
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

GTO, this is one of the best written posts on a very relevant topic, as we found out from the discussions it has sparked!

Here's why one should buy one particular D1 segment car, the Laura TSI - Forget the 10 Lakh C1ers, not even the 20 Lakh D2ers come anywhere close to the performance that this provides for an asking price of just 15 Lakhs (give or take,based on location, variant). Faster than all 4-cylinder D2ers, and also faster than the starting variants of the big 3 germans!

Hows that for a reason
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Old 7th July 2012, 02:24   #94
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Great thread and I agree to most of the points that are described here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anb View Post
Why one should pick up Cruze over Verna? Answer is very simple. Highway driving . Verna is the worst highway car in it's category. On the other hand Cruze is an ideal Highway car. Cruze worth more than the extra price if some one is buying the car for highway drives.
Hmm...just bought a 2012 Laura TDI AT and clocked over 1,500 km on Kerala highways during the last 2 weeks. My average speed was 36 km/h as shown by the trip meter (around 80% or more highway driving). This is probably the case with Kerala only and other states most definitely will have better highways. The one time I sped, and that was on an NH bye-pass, cops stopped me and gave me a Rs. 400 fine for doing a 95 km/h.

After spending 18 lakhs on Laura I observed that you really can't go any faster than an auto or a bus. I also couldn't find easy parking anywhere in the towns/cities and had to park 1-2 km away and walk everywhere. Good exercise, but not that fun during monsoons. Made me realize the importance of owning a small hatchback in India. I was thinking that I should've only bought a sub 10 lakh car as you don't get hit by massive duty/taxes.

In Kerala Government charges more as road tax for cars over 15 lakhs and excise duty is also much higher for bigger cars. So you pay a lot more to the Government for buying a bigger or more powerful car. The "actual manufactured price" of my car is 10.3 lakhs and the rest is in excise duty (27%), sales tax (12%) and road tax (another 15%). Total of 8 lakhs tax on a 10 lakh car. Thatís over 80% in total taxes!!!!

Trying to justify my decision - one of the main reasons why I considered D1 segment was that its the 'smallest' car you can buy in most developed markets. The cars are of international standard and not built for a cost. There is more torsional rigidity due to higher tensile strength materials used than the C segment cars. So safety was one of the aspects I considered. Plus I wanted a diesel engine with an automatic transmission. Lastly, I should fit in the car.
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Old 7th July 2012, 17:01   #95
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Quote:
Originally Posted by inwester View Post
Trying to justify my decision - one of the main reasons why I considered D1 segment was that its the 'smallest' car you can buy in most developed markets. The cars are of international standard and not built for a cost. There is more torsional rigidity due to higher tensile strength materials used than the C segment cars. So safety was one of the aspects I considered. Plus I wanted a diesel engine with an automatic transmission. Lastly, I should fit in the car.
Congratulations on your Laura. What you mentioned above summed up the reason for existence of the said segment. I mean, if you have the budget, its most ideal to go for this segment. In India, for most of the brands the real luxury starts from this segment, and there is not much of cost cutting (on safety and equipment to fulfill the VFM requirements). For e.g.; below the D1 segment, there is just only car which offers ESP as a standard (Fiesta AT), whereas you take the base Jetta or Fluence Ė itís pretty loaded on safety.
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Old 8th July 2012, 02:27   #96
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Great exchange on this front. I guess I am contrarian to the majority on this thread & have also put my money on the same.

In November 2011, I did a lot of reasearch & tested all the C2 & D1 segment cars / SUVs and finally ended up buying a Fluence. The reasons were

1. A good diesel heart
2. Proven performance (in other countries as well as in Logans - where I have seen many taxis having done more than 2,00,000 kms still working soundlessly / effortlessly)
3. Safety (ABS, Airbags, TCS, ESP)
4. Space (needed to fit 5 people comfortably over long distances > 500 kms)
5. Looks (I still get admiring stares at the end of 6 months of use )
6. Got a great deal (4 years of warranty & full maintenance)
7. Wanted a car that would last me 5-6 years without trouble

Now after 6 months, I am still happy that I made that decision. The vehicle is smooth, rock stable at speeds above 150 kmph & returns a city mileage with AC on of about 14 kmpl.

In short, I am happy that I paid the extra money & I believe it was worth it.
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Old 19th July 2012, 20:41   #97
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Quote:
Originally Posted by inwester View Post
Great thread and I agree to most of the points that are described here.



Hmm...just bought a 2012 Laura TDI AT and clocked over 1,500 km on Kerala highways during the last 2 weeks. My average speed was 36 km/h as shown by the trip meter (around 80% or more highway driving). This is probably the case with Kerala only and other states most definitely will have better highways. The one time I sped, and that was on an NH bye-pass, cops stopped me and gave me a Rs. 400 fine for doing a 95 km/h.

After spending 18 lakhs on Laura I observed that you really can't go any faster than an auto or a bus. I also couldn't find easy parking anywhere in the towns/cities and had to park 1-2 km away and walk everywhere. Good exercise, but not that fun during monsoons. Made me realize the importance of owning a small hatchback in India. I was thinking that I should've only bought a sub 10 lakh car as you don't get hit by massive duty/taxes.

In Kerala Government charges more as road tax for cars over 15 lakhs and excise duty is also much higher for bigger cars. So you pay a lot more to the Government for buying a bigger or more powerful car. The "actual manufactured price" of my car is 10.3 lakhs and the rest is in excise duty (27%), sales tax (12%) and road tax (another 15%). Total of 8 lakhs tax on a 10 lakh car. Thatís over 80% in total taxes!!!!

Trying to justify my decision - one of the main reasons why I considered D1 segment was that its the 'smallest' car you can buy in most developed markets. The cars are of international standard and not built for a cost. There is more torsional rigidity due to higher tensile strength materials used than the C segment cars. So safety was one of the aspects I considered. Plus I wanted a diesel engine with an automatic transmission. Lastly, I should fit in the car.
Hi inwester,
I am presently in the same dilemma of D1 (which was my initial intention and I kept adequate budget to cover same) Vs top of C2. My plan too is to go for a Laura TDI but probably a manual as I'm apprehensive about the DSG gear box after hearing stories about it.
Also I wanted to say I have undergone same experience you did. Was driving from Ernakulam to Mangalore and NH 17 being terribly congested and a narrow road, I was behind my schedule. So on an apparently empty bypass road near Calicut I took my Swift Dzire to 110. I failed to observe the only speed restriction board saying max 70 which was partially covered by a tree at the beginning of the road and was stopped by the traffic cops with their speed guns and was fined Rs.300. Then I realized that buying a D1 segment sedan will help me only on safety features and comfort but there would be very few places in India where I can unleash my D1 sedan.
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Old 19th July 2012, 21:17   #98
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debcha View Post
Great exchange on this front. I guess I am contrarian to the majority on this thread & have also put my money on the same.
=======
In short, I am happy that I paid the extra money & I believe it was worth it.
Hi,
I am currently in the same state of deciding between top of C2 Vs D1 (initial intention was D1 but having second thoughts after going through this thread). I too was considering Laura Vs Jetta and Fluence didnt figure in the list initially. Now I' have decided to give it a good consideration as VW, Honda, Toyota, Skoda and Renault Dealers are at same distance from where I stay.
One question, how to you find the the service quality?
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Old 19th July 2012, 21:30   #99
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dezrskb View Post
My plan too is to go for a Laura TDI but probably a manual as I'm apprehensive about the DSG gear box after hearing stories about it.
So on an apparently empty bypass road near Calicut I took my Swift Dzire to 110. I failed to observe the only speed restriction board saying max 70 which was partially covered by a tree at the beginning of the road and was stopped by the traffic cops with their speed guns and was fined Rs.300.
Really, the best thing about Laura is the DSG gearbox and the 140 HP engine that comes with it. In manual you only get the other engine and might not be worth it.

Like Debcha mentioned, Fluence looks like a great buy, its slightly bigger than the competition, interior space is much better, loaded with safety features and is cheaper than the rest. So overall, an excellent buy. The E2 variant, which doesn't really skimp on safety features (except the side airbags) and omits cruise control, climate control, rear ac and other not so relevant bits & pieces etc., is value for money at 13 lakhs ex-showroom. This will also help to lower the road tax, in case if its higher for cars > 15 lakhs in your state.

Now this is also where Duster neatly fits in. Smaller and cheaper than a D1 segment, but better than C2 segment. I think its fantastic product placement by Renault as the car caters to most of our needs and will do well on our kind of roads.
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Old 19th July 2012, 22:13   #100
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Great discussion!
I had same dilemma when I moved from hathbacks to jetta. Happy owner for 3 years. No regrets.
I bought jetta mainly for its rock solid stability at 120,150kmphr on highways. While in city it sustains most of the irregularities on road.
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Old 30th July 2012, 12:11   #101
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Having owned C and D1 segment cars, I can assure that the following are much better in D1 (good preowned ones available at price of top end new C segmenters):
- Pride of ownership (how can we forget this point, when in India size matters so much!)
- Better dealing of our bad roads due to notch better suspension, kerb weight of the car etc.. Larger wheels too contribute significantly.
- Highway manners - as mentioned earlier (solid planted ride at 130 kmph and beyond, and even better are the all wheel discs for confident stoppage.
- No cost cutting on safety equipment (ABS, EBD, all wheel discs, number of airbags etc.)
- Best of the lot is the 24/7/365 'sense of security' in the car in our unpredictable traffic. Don't we just love the door shutting 'thud' that demonstrates that a lot of solid metal wraps us around at all times.
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Old 3rd August 2012, 14:48   #102
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Exclamation Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Honda is discontinuing Civic in India after the current stock is cleared!

Source (Oncars.in): Full article can be read @ Honda Civic bids adieu to the Indian market
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Old 24th August 2012, 13:53   #103
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Post deleted by the Team-BHP Support : Please do NOT post one-liners that add little or no informational value to the thread. We need your co-operation to maintain the overall quality of this forum.

Please read our rules before proceeding any further.

Last edited by GTO : 1st September 2012 at 11:00.
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Old 30th August 2012, 19:44   #104
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

You know, I couldn't help but think today while reading the Elantra test drive report in the latest issue of Autocar that if back-seat space (legroom and seating for three abreast) is a deciding factor then the D-segment offers nothing over certain C-segment models particularly the Sunny (legroom) and the City (legroom and width).

And to truly seat three abreast one needs to look at the D2 segment and the likes of the Accord and Camry or then minivans like the Innova.

I was keen on the Elantra but the fact that it has lesser legroom than my City and about the same width are a bit of a downer.

I drive myself and use a driver equally. Hence for me the back seat is important and so is seating for five for when I use the driver and travel with family. So my choices are - the D2 segment, an Innova (not something I want to handle in the city when driving alone and I like sedans) and/or the best compromise - a car like the City. D1 has no solution for me.
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Old 21st September 2012, 12:39   #105
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Interesting Topic Indeed.
I for one believe that the reasons are plenty and some of them being the lack of good diesels at a decent price in the D1 segment. Civic doesnt have one, Corolla has a joke of an engine and the Lauras and Jettas are way too expensive to be called D1 cars. The lower specced D1 Jetta's and Lauras dont have enough equipment and therefore they have been hurt.

Im planning to move on from a Civic to a new car and over the last few days ive been driving my moms City to work as my cars in the workshop. I find the City so much easier to take to work and maneuver around town. My office is in a congested area and im quite tempted now to move back to a C segment sedan. To drive around in the evening, i have the choice of my dads car which will make up for the downgrade from D1 to C.

The Civic was bought back in 2007 because it was the coolest car ever ! The design of the exterior and interior blew me away. Now i feel the C segment cars offer better styling, more equipment and there is nothing in the D1 segment that i desire !
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