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Old 25th September 2012, 11:32   #121
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Quote:
Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
...
2. The grip on the road due to a longer wheelbase which adds to the handling of the car. The Sunny has a disproportionate back and hence doesn't inspire much confidence in speeds in excess of 100 kmph. The altis can cruise all day at 140-150 without complaining.
...
I Was talking about the Diesel corolla. I guess this point was for the Petrol
For the rest ot the points, I would rather go for the XUV. If interior fit and finish is so important to me I would look at the Innova.

The point I was trying to make is that based on whatever my requirements are a D1 segment sedan is never the best option (there are certain exceptions like the Base Varient Skoda laura TSI is an exception here for a petrolhead who wants a gem of an engine)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sameerg001 View Post
.....
No matter, How much VFM a C segment car will be, I won't bother looking at it. The comfort, Luxury, Driving pleasure and Build quality of a D segment sedan will always be better then that of a C segment car.

...

If I have a budget of say 19 lakhs and Look at a Jetta. Wouldnt I test drive a Pessant for 22 Lakhs. even if they both are very similar wouldnt I see if i could stretch and go for the Pessant?

The Laura Top end is 1 lakh cheaper than the superb. Wouldnt it be a better VFM to go for the Suberb rather than the Laura?

The corolla Diesel Costs me 15 lakhs. Would I not Rather go for the XUV or the Innova for the same price if i am looking for space inside? Would I actually spend 5 Lakhs for a bit of colour and a slightly wider seat when i get a similar performance and back seat comfort with the Sunny?

The average guy who can afford to buy a D1 Sedan would be Internet Savvy and knows what the market has to offer. If he is looking for snob value, better interiors, better build quality etc. he would upgrade to a segment higher. if he is looking for pure function he may see better value in a C2 segement. I feel every customer looks to get the best for the money he spends.
Someone made a point saying that anyone looking to buy a vehicle in this segment wouldnt bother about VFM. Dosent VFM mean getting the best for the Money you pay?
I am taking an example of the XUV. From a price perspective it falls in this segment. Ask any owner why he brought the XUV. one of the reasons he will give you is VFM. My point here is the average XUV owner is a person who can afford a D1 segment vehicle and he did look at the VFM option when he took the decision of buying an XUV
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Old 25th September 2012, 12:18   #122
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Smile Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

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Originally Posted by gandalf View Post
I Was talking about the Diesel corolla. I guess this point was for the Petrol
This was for diesel, Altis has 6 speed transmission in diesel and in 6th gear at 3000 or 3500 rpm Altis will be at 140-150 and at this speed, Engine doesn't feel strained, I am telling you because i have been in one.

The refinement levels of Altis are such, that even if you redline it, There is hardly any Vibration or clatter inside the cabin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf View Post
For the rest ot the points, I would rather go for the XUV. If interior fit and finish is so important to me I would look at the Innova.
Xuv and Innova is Suv/Muv, No matter how much VFM they are, A sedan like Altis/Civic etc will be more fun to drive and will offer me more comfort and better ride quality then a Innova or a XUV, Plus you won't be happy in a Innova at 120, there's alot of diesel clatter inside the cabin at those speeds, Whereas on the other hand in a Sedan like Civic/Corolla, You won't feel the speed even.

If i don't need that extra 2 seats in Innova/Xuv, I won't look into them, A sedan will be better over a same segment Suv/Muv anyday.

They drive better, They are more comfortable, Better ride quality, Better efficiency, Better High speed manners, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf View Post
The point I was trying to make is that based on whatever my requirements are a D1 segment sedan is never the best option (there are certain exceptions like the Base Varient Skoda laura TSI is an exception here for a petrolhead who wants a gem of an engine)
I don't agree here, Say, I am in the market with the budget of 19L and Looking for a sedan to be driven in, I will buy a Altis diesel.

So, If i am in the market for a 19L sedan, I won't be interested in Sunny at all, No matter i save 9L or what. It's just that, Altis will be comfortable over a Sunny, Will offer me better luxury and good ride quality.

If i am looking for self driven option in 19L segment, I will buy a Cruze just for the monster engine under the hood.

Will i look at Xuv or a Vento in this case, Answer will be same NO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf View Post
If I have a budget of say 19 lakhs and Look at a Jetta. Wouldnt I test drive a Pessant for 22 Lakhs. even if they both are very similar wouldnt I see if i could stretch and go for the Pessant?

The Laura Top end is 1 lakh cheaper than the superb. Wouldnt it be a better VFM to go for the Suberb rather than the Laura?
You said it, If i am looking at a Verna top end diesel model at 13L, I will see If i COULD stretch and buy a Cruze at 16L, If i COULD.

I will go ahead and will buy the Cruze over a Vento.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf View Post
The corolla Diesel Costs me 15 lakhs. Would I not Rather go for the XUV or the Innova for the same price if i am looking for space inside? Would I actually spend 5 Lakhs for a bit of colour and a slightly wider seat when i get a similar performance and back seat comfort with the Sunny?
Altis will be more comfortable over sunny any given day, The rear seat of sunny lacks Under thigh support, Whereas Altis rear side, Offer superb comfort, that too in luxury.

If i am looking at Altis/Cruze, I won't look in a Innova/XUV, Unless and Until, I am looking for a 7 seater car, Or i need a car, In which i will spend most of my time, In a place, Where road doesn't exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf View Post
The average guy who can afford to buy a D1 Sedan would be Internet Savvy and knows what the market has to offer. If he is looking for snob value, better interiors, better build quality..........SNIP...........My point here is the average XUV owner is a person who can afford a D1 segment vehicle and he did look at the VFM option when he took the decision of buying an XUV
If an average guy is WILLING to spend 17-18L for a car, I don't think he will go ahead and Will buy a Vento instead of a Laura ( just giving example )

My point- Still remains the same, If i COULD afford to buy a D segment car, I won't look at C segment.

D segment will be better over a C segment anyday, Whether it is Interiors/Build Quality/Snob Value etc.

If sunny offers me better space at back, What it lacks, is Interior quality and Luxury quotient, In which Altis excels and scores over Sunny.

Cheers
Sameer
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Old 25th September 2012, 21:01   #123
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

That precisely is the whole point of the thread, isn't it.
With C segment cars improving by every passing day, it is the D segment potential target market which will start looking at C segment cars too. This is the trend, increasingly.

I am not really sure you can C segment cars as wannabes, though. Even when comparing with a segment above, even today. C segment cars are pretty competent in their own right already. I guess GTOs first post in this thread elaborates the point pretty well anyway.

The D segment cars are in dire need of a real differentiator from C seg cars.

Talking of aspirational cars - someday soon, with Audis and BMWs and Mercs getting cheaper each day, it is also possible that only these brands will be preferred by potential D segment buyers. Maruti, hyundai, et al don't sell anyway, even Hondas, Toyotas will then suffer
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Old 25th September 2012, 22:01   #124
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

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Originally Posted by gandalf View Post
I Was talking about the Diesel corolla. I guess this point was for the Petrol
I am indeed talking about the Altis diesel. Just drove my diesel Altis from Delhi to Vadodara last week. Stayed constantly at speeds of 120-130 throughout and 150 flat on the expressway.
Note: No way advocating overspeeding.

The same would have been impossible with an Innova. Innova struggles to cross 100 and over long journeys a sedan is always more comfortable to be in rather than a MUV. The MUV only offers you more space and a higher GC. The same has been even discussed on another thread at length. And you are forgetting the basic premise here.

As far as buying a Passat goes, this trend is present everywhere. That is the reason why cars from any segment span all across the segment. So where the Alto top end finishes, the WagonR base model comes. Where WagonR finishes the Ritz would probably start and then the Swift and the Dzire and so on. So it all boils down to how much a customer is willing to stretch his budget since at the end of the day car buying is just a way of indulgence and nothing else.
When I bought the Altis, I seriously Flirted with the idea of buying the Passat. Even took a TD. What stopped me then? Firstly the budget would have been at a real stretch, secondly the after sales cost etc would be higher. So since I would not be able to afford it at present I bought the Altis.
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Old 25th September 2012, 22:05   #125
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gandalf View Post
I Was talking about the Diesel corolla. I guess this point was for the Petrol
For the rest ot the points, I would rather go for the XUV. If interior fit and finish is so important to me I would look at the Innova.

The point I was trying to make is that based on whatever my requirements are a D1 segment sedan is never the best option (there are certain exceptions like the Base Varient Skoda laura TSI is an exception here for a petrolhead who wants a gem of an engine)




If I have a budget of say 19 lakhs and Look at a Jetta. Wouldnt I test drive a Pessant for 22 Lakhs. even if they both are very similar wouldnt I see if i could stretch and go for the Pessant?

The Laura Top end is 1 lakh cheaper than the superb. Wouldnt it be a better VFM to go for the Suberb rather than the Laura?

The corolla Diesel Costs me 15 lakhs. Would I not Rather go for the XUV or the Innova for the same price if i am looking for space inside? Would I actually spend 5 Lakhs for a bit of colour and a slightly wider seat when i get a similar performance and back seat comfort with the Sunny?

The average guy who can afford to buy a D1 Sedan would be Internet Savvy and knows what the market has to offer. If he is looking for snob value, better interiors, better build quality etc. he would upgrade to a segment higher. if he is looking for pure function he may see better value in a C2 segement. I feel every customer looks to get the best for the money he spends.
Someone made a point saying that anyone looking to buy a vehicle in this segment wouldnt bother about VFM. Dosent VFM mean getting the best for the Money you pay?
I am taking an example of the XUV. From a price perspective it falls in this segment. Ask any owner why he brought the XUV. one of the reasons he will give you is VFM. My point here is the average XUV owner is a person who can afford a D1 segment vehicle and he did look at the VFM option when he took the decision of buying an XUV
Buddy, there is something known as 'Quality'. An XUV type vehicle does not provide it, while a Jetta type vehicle does. That is the difference. Not everyone thinks like you do. For some, the feeling of 'quality and engineering' is more important than the 'feature list and VFM'. The D segment cars is for those set of folks. Also, everybody has a different perspective of looking at things. Some may look at a Jetta as nothing but an overgrown Vento at 60% more money, while others may look at it as a 90% A4, at half the cost. Interesting to note that I've deliberately taken Jetta as my reference example and not Corolla /Cruze, even though the former master in reliability while the latter in 0-100. That's coz these cars do not really have finesse of a D segment cars (even though I can understand Corolla being a top choice for somebody who likes comfortable, luxurious point A to B commute)

Though, I agree that for an average joe, a C segment car should suffice.

Last edited by Abhi_Automobile : 25th September 2012 at 22:09.
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Old 25th September 2012, 22:43   #126
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

The C segment to me is a make shift segment as it has to full fill multiple requirements. It has to be a sedan , somewhat spacious , decently loaded and still come in under 10 lakhs. The Honda city fits the bill in totality to some extent but everything else from the vento to the rapid to the sunny looks like a half cooked product focussing one one particular aspect like space , mileage , features etc.
Now coming to the D segment , I have yet to come across 1 person who can afford to buy a corolla but is opting for a sunny or can afford the jetta but picks up a vento. The C segment just cannot match the D in terms of anything. Saying things like c offers 80% of the space of D at 60 % cost is purely relative. A D will give you a far superior vehicle owning experience compared to the C , period.
Somebody mentioned XUV , my cuz just bought one and i am appalled at the interior quality of the product. Now if someone wants a 4 page long feature list over quality its personal preference.
Hence what makes sense to someone may be totally gibberish to someone else.
Bottom line , the value of the D may be diminishing but their ability to provide you a far superior owning experience is still very hard for any C segment car to match.

Last edited by bigron : 25th September 2012 at 22:46.
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Old 29th October 2012, 13:50   #127
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

A colleague shared this thread with me.
Exactly the same discussion I have with my wife every day. I wonder why would anyone buy a sedan in 15+ lakh budget when XUV has so much space and features and road presence. She still likes the sedan looks and thinks XUV is too large rather than sleek sedans. Sedans carry an image associated with super rich.

I spent about 2 months looking for a new car as my octavia was getting old and petrol prices were killing in a 50km per day commute. Looked at almost all cars in C2 and D1. Jetta was almost final, but then vento was not looking too bad in the comparison. After 2-3 test drives, I was convinced that XUV is the beast I am looking for. Today I am driving an XUV and it is a great car for city commutes as well. With rear seats folded, it becomes a small play area for two kids. Kids don't want to come to middle/ front seats anymore. In fact I keep the rear-most seats folded most of the time. I can carry a lot of stuff in there. For example a 70kg monster subwoofer was delivered to my office address instead of home. It was a HUGE box as it was double packed in a wooden 'peti'. It came in easily with just the rear seats folded.

I am no more worried about the ground clearance or the broken roads. Octavia was not too great at that. Mathura road, a few weeks back, had potholes that would challenge even the best of the SUVs. Not a problem with XUV.

Middle row has space much more than any sedan. And I can also change the incline if I need to. My feet go under the driver/ passenger seats when sitting in the middle row, so I can stretch my legs a lot more than I can do in any sedan. It is important for a 1+ hour long commute.

If you have 13-15L budget, why would you go for anything but XUV??? If you have more, you can look at fortuner, pajero sports etc.
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Old 29th October 2012, 14:37   #128
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

please not club sedans and SUVs together, even if the price ranges match.

one cannot compare an XUV with Corolla Altis, as the only commonality (besides both being cars on 4 wheels) is the price.

For this thread, let us compare sedan vs sedan or Suv vs SUv (the options are limited i accept) across the ranges.
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Old 29th October 2012, 21:52   #129
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Thanks GTO for this nice post.

Really informative in all aspects. Now it's a matter of time all D1 segments vanishes from vicinity of common man if they are not priced competitively and feature rich.
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Old 29th October 2012, 23:10   #130
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

SUVs and sedans just can't be compared because of their common price range. Each one has it's own charm and characteristics. I have always felt that SUVs are not as comfortable as a sedan over longer drives mainly due to the roll that becomes very evident on the highways.
A D segment car is way better than a C segment car in so many ways. The overall build quality, refinement, comfort and feeling of luxury will be much more in a D segment car. As the price of the car goes up there are a lot of better things the car has. One might say why buy a mercedes when you can settle for a honda city. There is a vast difference. Its just that the difference is not as evident between the C and D segment cars, but there is a difference. For those who just want to get from point A to point B any car will serve the purpose, but for those who want to enjoy the ride it's a whole different story.
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Old 30th October 2012, 09:45   #131
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Comparing Altis vs Etios, Civic vs City and Jetta vs Vento.

There surely is a big leap in intangible benefits like quality of interiors, feel of the car, ride, handling etc.

The C segment cars have been developed for emerging markets, so they give the noticeable features, but skimp on details.
D segmenters are developed first for mature markets and then adapted down in features only for India, so the technical platform is very robust.

The differences will be surely appreciated over a long period of time, as one lives with a D segment car daily.

OT: Lets compare a 10 year old XUV with a 10 year old Altis or Civic. That is when engineering makes its presence felt, rather than features.
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Old 30th October 2012, 10:44   #132
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

From the preceding arguments, I get the sense that our market has the space for a 3-box sedan which is placed between C & D segment prices.

C segment finishes at 10 Lacs +-, while entry level D-Segment starts at 14 Lacs +- . So why cant we have a product @ 12Lac price point that offers:

1. Space and safety of D
2. Interiors and feature list of a C

Renault Duster could have been that car. But somewhere Renault lost the plot due to pricing and 'unusual' interior features.
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Old 30th October 2012, 17:03   #133
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

What I feel is that its the D segment wherein the true character of the manufacturer (and their countries of origin) starts reflecting in their products. On one hand, we have Toyota Corolla standing for a comfortable and no nonsense point A to B car and on the other hand we have the Cruze which I can say is the Indian example of an American muscle car.

Similarly, on one side we have the Laura and Jetta expressing European aristocratic finesse and on the other side there is Fluence showcasing its romantic french flair through its design.

Its almost that we can make out the type of person by knowing which D-seg car s/he drives.

We cannot say the same for C-segment offerings.
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Old 30th October 2012, 19:59   #134
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

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Originally Posted by amitayu View Post
please not club sedans and SUVs together, even if the price ranges match.

one cannot compare an XUV with Corolla Altis, as the only commonality (besides both being cars on 4 wheels) is the price.

For this thread, let us compare sedan vs sedan or Suv vs SUv (the options are limited i accept) across the ranges.
I tend to almost agree with you, but when some SUVs are sharing many parts even engines(Cruze and captiva for example..) with their sedan siblings, I think a slight over lap can be allowed!
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Old 5th November 2012, 13:39   #135
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Default Re: The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)

Which C2 sedan has 6 airbags? Any hatchbacks attempting to scale this peak?
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