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Old 11th November 2012, 00:01   #151
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Default Re: Honda Brio Sedan to be launched in 2013. EDIT : To be called "AMAZE"

Someone who doubts engines from Honda or for that matter BMW might know very little about engines generally speaking.
Even the clean diesels that Honda developed was a task assigned to the VTEC designer. If you hate diesels, you work on that, sort of thing. There is no gimmick in this.

I am waiting for a premium car offering from Honda with diesel to trade in my German diesel sedan.
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Old 11th November 2012, 11:29   #152
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Default Re: Honda Brio Sedan to be launched in 2013. EDIT : To be called "AMAZE"

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Originally Posted by hrman View Post
@Greatmana2000. Yours are the only opinions on this thread which are totally skeptical and negative on Honda's Diesel strategy. If you have been observing the Indian automobile market and the skew towards diesel due to the pricing, you would have noticed that anything in diesel gets lapped up.
The Honda diesel mill is definitely the most awaited and discussed engine in India. This is evident from most Automotive threads on the web, and more so on TBHP.


Just like you think it will not fly off the shelves, or it is pure marketing c**p, or that one of the largest and reputed Automotive giants in the world is incapable of making a frugal and well running diesel engine, the other 99% are pleased that Honda is finally coming with a diesel sedan and sure of its success, provided it is priced right. And that it is expected to be a success is evident because it is surely the most awaited car or range of cars of 2012-2013.

This is an open forum and you are entitled to have your own views on why Honda will produce a dud, or the engine will fail miserably, but it is not right on your part to cut off everyone who says something positive about the Honda diesel on this thread!!
My opinions are always different because i probably think "out of the box " . I do not get swayed with the general opinion of the masses and I have been proved right in my numerous threads and so many years of existence on team-bhp . You may check out some of my posts where I have changed the way in which a topic has been discussed .. the skoda bashing threads .. the maruti workers strike .. to name a few .

coming to your post .. anything in diesel will not sell .. examples are fiat , chevrolet beat .. ( i meant they just have a presence .. not really selling like they should have been )

This Honda diesel engine which is being awaited is much like a cricket match .. It is getting hyped because people get hyper with the name Honda . Nothing else to it . If you go take a look at the toyota etios threads before its launch .. you will find that they were much more vocal about buying a toyota etios .. just because it was a toyota . Most of them echo the same words in those threads as well as this ..
Another thing .. no one in the world until now has used or knows of this engine which is going to be there in Brio .. dont you think Team-BHP as a forum has an influence on the average joe while buying a car ? What would happen to someone who blindly goes by the forum and buys a Honda diesel and it turns out to be dud ? All I was trying to do was to restrain comments on something which is not yet seen or has gone round its routine testing ..

Not everyone can make an engine .. period . There are so many patents .. licensing etc .. when it comes to diesel tech ..unfortunately most of the cutting edge tech seems to be with the Europeans and not with the Japanese .

Since it is an open forum .. I do respect the rules of the forum ..and as mentioned previously .. this site has the power to sway peoples opinion , but again it is not right on anyone else part to simply post without having seen , known or at least intuitively guessed but just come up with " It is a honda diesel and it is the best " without a rhyme or reason ...

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Old 11th November 2012, 11:34   #153
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Default Re: Honda Brio Sedan to be launched in 2013. EDIT : To be called "AMAZE"

Just came across this video teaser in the Honda Thailand Official website.. apart from the image teasers...
http://www.honda.co.th/brioamaze/

Interesting to see how they've integrated the boot along... The waist line along the doors which generally is unique and single is been split in this car... one from the original car(Brio hatchback) presented along the front door and fades away into the rear, and another(new one) prominently from the rear tail lamp and fading away alongside the first.. And, there's also a split chrome barred front grill unlike the regular single thick chrome grilled Brio hatchback... Somehow feel it's going to be well-proportioned unlike many others having a similar affair.. Curious to check how it actually looks on road and when the whole car is revealed..
The interiors seem to be similar though...


Many sources throughout the net also reveal The release date(Thailand) to be 23 November.
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Old 11th November 2012, 13:07   #154
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Default Re: Honda Brio Sedan to be launched in 2013. EDIT : To be called "AMAZE"

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Originally Posted by greatmana2000 View Post

Not everyone can make an engine .. period . There are so many patents .. licensing etc .. when it comes to diesel tech ..unfortunately most of the cutting edge tech seems to be with the Europeans and not with the Japanese .
So can we say that the Korean's do not know how to make diesel engines? Can we also say that GM's diesel engines are crap since they were developed recently in 2010 for their new range of cars?

Hyundai never had their own diesel engines and used to get them from detroit diesel. Later on they came out with their own series of engines. Those engines found in the Verna, i20 must be really bad considering they were recently developed by a korean company and not german. Since koreans don't have the cutting edge tech of the europeans and no patents for diesel engines, the hyundai engines must be very substandard, right?

What about GM? Their engines used to come from VM Motori till they developed their own engine called the "Z" family.

Also, to add to what others have said, Honda's first diesel engine was in 2004, the 2.2 i-CTDi engine in the Accord which was also an aluminium block. More details in this thread:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/intern...ti-diesel.html (Honda Accord 2.2 i-cdti (diesel))

If someone is competent in engine design be it petrol or diesel, it's Honda.

Honda invented VTEC technology. Incase of diesel, they just need to use what is already working in other cars.

ps: That is my opinion. Yours maybe different and I'm fine with that but I'm just putting across my point like other members.

Last edited by Vid6639 : 11th November 2012 at 13:08.
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Old 11th November 2012, 13:23   #155
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Default Re: Honda Brio Sedan to be launched in 2013. EDIT : To be called "AMAZE"

The teaser video of Brio Amaze is out in Honda's Thai Website. Here s the video


IMO it looks quite decent . All upto Honda to price it well and they will have a winner on hands.
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Old 11th November 2012, 19:51   #156
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Default Re: Honda Brio Sedan to be launched in 2013. EDIT : To be called "AMAZE"

The rear somehow resembles slightly with the new Dzire.

Priced near the dzire category and Maruti has problem if Honda launches a diesel engine too. Petrol may not sell as much as they want it to.
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Old 12th November 2012, 01:55   #157
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Default Re: Honda Brio Sedan to be launched in 2013. EDIT : To be called "AMAZE"

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Also, to add to what others have said, Honda's first diesel engine was in 2004, the 2.2 i-CTDi engine in the Accord which was also an aluminium block. More details in this thread:
I wish the fuel quality of our country has improved by a great deal by the time the AMAZE diesel comes here

Yeah, I agree with you... Honda has great excellence in engine tech. They have proved that many times and I would be stupid to argue that!

But it was quite a mystery when they said they are not bringing their CTDi engines back in the days when petrol engines and i-Vtec ruled the market. The CTDi had a mixed reputation for their reliability, you can look around in google for that. The europeans did a much better job IMO with the diesel engines and technologies. Even the best selling engines are from the european manufacturers until now and its the national engine of our counrty(?)

Talking about the koreans, most of them were scaled and rebadged Mitsubishi engines. The reputation of koreans IMO were always sourced and please dont consider them for a benchmark

http://mitsipedia.info/index.php?title=6G7x_family

More here...

http://www.sorentosite.com/forum/pri...d.php?tid=5343

Last edited by anachronix : 12th November 2012 at 01:56.
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:12   #158
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Default Re: Honda Brio Sedan to be launched in 2013. EDIT : To be called "AMAZE"

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
I wish the fuel quality of our country has improved by a great deal by the time the AMAZE diesel comes here

Yeah, I agree with you... Honda has great excellence in engine tech. They have proved that many times and I would be stupid to argue that!

But it was quite a mystery when they said they are not bringing their CTDi engines back in the days when petrol engines and i-Vtec ruled the market. The CTDi had a mixed reputation for their reliability, you can look around in google for that. The europeans did a much better job IMO with the diesel engines and technologies. Even the best selling engines are from the european manufacturers until now and its the national engine of our counrty(?)
Yeah I did google about the engine and there were mixed reports about reliability but the same was true for VW group engines as well. Earlier PD (Pump duesse) engines also reported issues. Then VW launched the CR engine which initially was known to have injectors issues due to sensitvitity to diesel used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Talking about the koreans, most of them were scaled and rebadged Mitsubishi engines. The reputation of koreans IMO were always sourced and please dont consider them for a benchmark

http://mitsipedia.info/index.php?title=6G7x_family

More here...

http://www.sorentosite.com/forum/pri...d.php?tid=5343
Both the links you mention are for petrol engines, which are known to be developed with Mitsubishi. This is not the case for diesel engines.

Petrol engines were developed by GEMA (Global engine manufacturing alliance) that consisted of Chrysler, Hyundai and Mitsubishi.
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:13   #159
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Default Re: Honda Brio Sedan to be launched in 2013. EDIT : To be called "AMAZE"

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
So can we say that the Korean's do not know how to make diesel engines? Can we also say that GM's diesel engines are crap since they were developed recently in 2010 for their new range of cars?

Also, to add to what others have said, Honda's first diesel engine was in 2004, the 2.2 i-CTDi engine in the Accord which was also an aluminium block.
If someone is competent in engine design be it petrol or diesel, it's Honda.
Honda invented VTEC technology. In case of diesel, they just need to use what is already working in other cars.
I agree. Which is why it still fails to amaze me that people can bet their life that Honda will churn out a flop diesel engine without even looking at what they have done so far. The 2.2 i-CTDi , the first diesel engine from Honda's stable was rated as the Engine of the year. These accreditations are not given blindly.
Sigh, I guess it takes all kinds to make up a world!!
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:41   #160
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Default Re: Honda Brio Sedan to be launched in 2013. EDIT : To be called "AMAZE"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Yeah I did google about the engine and there were mixed reports about reliability but the same was true for VW group engines as well. Earlier PD (Pump duesse) engines also reported issues. Then VW launched the CR engine which initially was known to have injectors issues due to sensitvitity to diesel used.
Agree, VWs had their share of trouble with powertrains and also with overall reliability for a car.

How about the CRD tech from Fiat? They have great reputation in the global market for reliability compared to what Honda acheived with their CTDi. The oilburners from Toyota have a great reputation too, while Honda has struggled with getting the oilburners to work cleanly with their first attempt when they had a strong foot in engine technology in the early 2000s.

While I read about the Honda F1 engineers working on developing this new version of oilburners for Honday, it often looks to me as a marketing talk. I will wait for them to bring their technology to the road!

Quote:
Both the links you mention are for petrol engines, which are known to be developed with Mitsubishi. This is not the case for diesel engines.

Petrol engines were developed by GEMA (Global engine manufacturing alliance) that consisted of Chrysler, Hyundai and Mitsubishi.
Quote from the article:

Quote:
The Mitsubishi 4D56 has been a very reliable engine here in the Philippines. Many old Mitsu vehicles with this engine type are still plying the roads and this engine has also been tweaked to produce higher power and is one of the engines installed in the latest generation Strada pick-up. It has lower output though compared to the Sorento's 2.5 WGT diesel engine:

KIA SORENTO:
Engine - 2.5 DOHC 16V I4
Maximum Output (bhp @ rpm) - 142 @ 3800
Maximum Torque (Nm @ rpm) - 324 @ 2000
Fuel Type - Diesel
Fuel System - Common Rail / Turbo

MITSUBISHI STRADA:
Engine - 2.5 DOHC 16V I4
Maximum Output (bhp @ rpm) - 134 @ 3500
Maximum Torque (Nm @ rpm) - 314 @ 2000
Fuel Type - Diesel
Fuel System - Common Rail / Turbo
If you look back at the GEMA made engines, the block and tech were from Mitsubishi while the head and other components were custom made for GEMA stakeholders to fit in their own product portfolios!

IMHO, Mitsubishi is the Fiat of Japan. They have the brilliance to make amazing powertrains and chassis, but just not too focused to sell their own cars while they make a fortune sharing their technologies with their competitors.
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Old 12th November 2012, 11:29   #161
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Default Re: Honda Brio Sedan to be launched in 2013. EDIT : To be called "AMAZE"

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Its a diesel isin't it? Others are already doing 22-23!
Agreed, its a diesel. Others are doing 22-23 but Fiat MJD is 1248 CC, Toyota's D4D is 1365 CC, renault DCI is 1450CC, GM's Beat is around 1000 CC 3 pot.

Exception being Indica/Indigo's 25.3 (TDI i guess) but even it is 1300 CC i think.

Honda's is a 1.5L engine so extracting 25KMpl from 1500 CC is not that easy. isnt it?
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Old 12th November 2012, 13:08   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gemi_kk

Agreed, its a diesel. Others are doing 22-23 but Fiat MJD is 1248 CC, Toyota's D4D is 1365 CC, renault DCI is 1450CC, GM's Beat is around 1000 CC 3 pot.

Exception being Indica/Indigo's 25.3 (TDI i guess) but even it is 1300 CC i think.

Honda's is a 1.5L engine so extracting 25 kmpl from 1500 CC is not that easy. isnt it?
Hyundai's 1.6 CRDi is rated at 23.5 kmpl while Ford's 1.5L TCDi is rated at 23.5 kmpl which is more efficient than the 1.3L engines. May not be difficult to get a 25 kmpl from a 1.5L light weight, well engineered car.
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Old 12th November 2012, 21:52   #163
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Default Re: Honda Brio Sedan to be launched in 2013. EDIT : To be called "AMAZE"

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
So can we say that the Korean's do not know how to make diesel engines? Can we also say that GM's diesel engines are crap since they were developed recently in 2010 for their new range of cars?

Hyundai never had their own diesel engines and used to get them from detroit diesel. Later on they came out with their own series of engines. Those engines found in the Verna, i20 must be really bad considering they were recently developed by a korean company and not german. Since koreans don't have the cutting edge tech of the europeans and no patents for diesel engines, the hyundai engines must be very substandard, right?

What about GM? Their engines used to come from VM Motori till they developed their own engine called the "Z" family.

Also, to add to what others have said, Honda's first diesel engine was in 2004, the 2.2 i-CTDi engine in the Accord which was also an aluminium block. More details in this thread:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/intern...ti-diesel.html (Honda Accord 2.2 i-cdti (diesel))

If someone is competent in engine design be it petrol or diesel, it's Honda.

Honda invented VTEC technology. Incase of diesel, they just need to use what is already working in other cars.

ps: That is my opinion. Yours maybe different and I'm fine with that but I'm just putting across my point like other members.
Hyundai used to source their engines from VM motori . Even the Americans do not have the tech for small passenger diesel engines . Going by today's figures Hyundai is a more competent diesel engine manufacutrer than Honda . They have a range of engines derived from various partnerships from a 1.1L diesel to a 12 Litre diesel in inline as well as V configurations . Just compare this . The whole of ASIA and Europe prefers diesel engines compared to petrol and Honda just had 1 engine since 2002 , whereas Hyundai has a range of reliable diesel engines .

GM bought a stake in VM motori essentially because they did not have the technology to manufacture diesel engines for small passenger vehicles . Today VM motori is a part of GM and Fiat .

The "Z " series engines are essentially the same VM motori engines but with a higher rail pressure and a DMF clutch .
VTEC is prehistoric in today's world . Read about Fiat Multiair tech .You would be amused that you mentioned about VTEC .

Quote:
Originally Posted by hrman View Post
I agree. Which is why it still fails to amaze me that people can bet their life that Honda will churn out a flop diesel engine without even looking at what they have done so far. The 2.2 i-CTDi , the first diesel engine from Honda's stable was rated as the Engine of the year. These accreditations are not given blindly.
Sigh, I guess it takes all kinds to make up a world!!
Just pay any magazine or a journalist or a jury .. They will write/tell any crap you tell them to .

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Hyundai's 1.6 CRDi is rated at 23.5 kmpl while Ford's 1.5L TCDi is rated at 23.5 kmpl which is more efficient than the 1.3L engines. May not be difficult to get a 25 kmpl from a 1.5L light weight, well engineered car.
The Fiat engines are multijet . These engines have a medium rail pressure compared to the latest engines . The latest engines have a higher rail pressure . That is one of the main reasons for a higher fuel average . The Multijet ver.2 incorporates those changes in the rail pressure as well . Higher rail pressures are needed for the new emissions as well .
http://www.fptmultijet2.com/eng/

Last edited by greatmana2000 : 12th November 2012 at 21:56.
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Old 12th November 2012, 23:00   #164
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Default Re: Honda Brio Sedan to be launched in 2013. EDIT : To be called "AMAZE"

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Originally Posted by RSR View Post
Having said that, they need to price it well. If they attempt to do a Jazz and price the car in the league of the Sunny/Scala, they will end up with Jazz-like sales figures. If the sub-4m sedan is positioned on par with or even just below the Dzire, then everyone will be "amazed" at its success.
Honda has always charged a premium for their product. Without a doubt they will do it here. It wont meet the Jazz's fate because a 4-mt sedan is a 'wanted' product where as a sedan-sized hatch was little early for the Indian market. In India a boot means more prestige!
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Old 13th November 2012, 10:31   #165
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Default Re: Honda Brio Sedan to be launched in 2013. EDIT : To be called "AMAZE"

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Originally Posted by anujatwork View Post
Honda has always charged a premium for their product. Without a doubt they will do it here. It wont meet the Jazz's fate because a 4-mt sedan is a 'wanted' product where as a sedan-sized hatch was little early for the Indian market. In India a boot means more prestige!
I would like to disagree here. Sub 4m sedan appears to be a 'wanted' product in India just because all the currently available options in that category are pure VFM and the manufacturers ensured that most of the savings in duties by making it a CS are passed on to the customer. This substantial price difference to a full size sedan is the reason for the high volumes of 4m sedans. Bigger boot means more prestige and aam aadmi would prefer that if both are available at the same price

If Honda converts this savings into the 'premium for the Honda brand', rather than passing it on to customers, then thats the recipe for another dud.

Most Indians never go for a cheap car or an overpriced car; they prefer a VFM car. No matter what the cost is, if the car gives enough value for that cost, there would be takers. Very few manufacturers seem to have understood the actual meaning of VFM.

Jazz didn't sell the volume it deserved just because it didn't offer anything to justify the additional 2 lakhs (based on original pricing) that a customer would have to spend over and above the cost of a Swift. Honda build quality and reliability can be argued as a factor to justify that cost, but most Indians have experienced the reliability of Maruti vehicles and they know that the maximum Honda can do would be to match it. The customers went for the better choice- its as simple as that.
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