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Old 14th July 2012, 07:36   #31
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Default Re: HM adds new tech to Mitsubishi Cedia

My editing time expired so I am making a new post. I just went through Autocar India and tabulated the 0-100, 20-80 in 3rd gear and 40-100 in 4th gear figures as obtained in Autocar India testing of petrol manual transmission cars in the Cedia's class, and threw in the Civic as a reference.

This table is ordered by best overall performance, which I set as the total time taken for all 3 tasks. Fastest car overall has lowest cumulative time.

The Cedia is not only the fastest car in its price class, it is also quicker than the Civic!

That a car with such excellent performance and well known handling and fun-to-drive qualities should be attracting all the self described enthusiasts, instead of inviting snide comments and criticism is a bit of a disgrace on the so called enthusiast community which in fact is not enthusiastic at all because its thinking and outlook is pretty much the same as that of the general public.

As an aside, I am surprised that the Fiesta is so weak in engine performance. It would need to have an absolutely brilliant chassis to overcome this weakness. Also interesting is that the Rapid is considerably quicker than the Vento, when they are supposed to be identical. I begin to wonder if Automobile testing in India has the sort of professional consistency that the western magazines have or if indeed the Rapid is tuned differently from the Vento.

Edit: the logo on the image obscured the bottom three rows so i had to remake the table with blank space for the logo so you guys can see the table clearly.
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Last edited by manson : 14th July 2012 at 18:27.
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Old 14th July 2012, 08:51   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbir
Whether the Cedia is more or less fun to drive than the civic or the Laura is not the most relevant question. What is relevant is that it absolutely BLOWS AWAY all the competition in its price range.

The fact that so many supposedly driving enthusiasts on this forum are buying its competition while this car is trashed on the forum indicates a disconnect from the reality of this car.
I don't think anyone is disputing the capabilities of the Cedia. But Mitsubishi in India looks like a manufacturer living in the past. The current generation Lancer is now in its fifth year of existence (worldwide), and here in India they are still recycling the previous generation car with minor updates here and there. Even enthusiasts may not want to live with something which has passed its prime, and adding a tab as a feature is not going to make any difference.
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Old 14th July 2012, 08:55   #33
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Default Re: HM adds new tech to Mitsubishi Cedia

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
I don't think anyone is disputing the capabilities of the Cedia. But Mitsubishi in India looks like a manufacturer living in the past. The current generation Lancer is now in its fifth year of existence (worldwide), and here in India they are still recycling the previous generation car with minor updates here and there. Even enthusiasts may not want to live with something which has passed its prime, and adding a tab as a feature is not going to make any difference.
If you make this case for the Pajero SFX as compared to the Fortuner, Endeavour or the Santa Fe, I would understand. I just bought an SFX and I fully understand why no one else would or should.

But I utterly reject this argument as regards the Cedia. What is it about the City, the Vento, the Fiesta, the Verna, that makes the Cedia too dated to consider? It is faster than any of them, it is more fun to drive than any of them, it is more refined than any of them. So whats dated about it?

Sure you could claim that look is a bit dated compared to the very most modern looking cars in its class (the "fluidic" verna), but are we really enthusiasts if we care so much about the look that we overlook superior performance, handling, and fun to drive characteristics because the Verna looks slightly more modern? If so, then it is my contention that those who make such a choice are in fact not driving enthusiasts at all. They're just ordinary people who wandered onto a car forum.

If people steer away from the Cedia because of the lack of dealers and service network, that I respect. If its because they think the car is dated and old fashioned, it is my contention that they are utterly ignorant about the facts.

Last edited by Harbir : 14th July 2012 at 09:16.
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Old 14th July 2012, 09:31   #34
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Default Re: HM adds new tech to Mitsubishi Cedia

Harbir, the simple fact is that:

The average Indian car 'enthusiast' isnt rich enough to throw caution to the wind and buy any car he wants. A car is still a pretty expensive toy for a middle class guy, and even if he is an 'enthusiast', he has a lot in his plate aside from cars to consider.

Another point is that the Indian car community is not that mature (understandably so) and hence many of us are happy with what we got- even if its an alto. It will take time to change.

I also have to stress that parts and spares availability are always a problem apart from Maruti/Hyundai. There are no 'specialists' here as there are in western countries, stocking parts of obscure cars. I just bought a Ford Ikon, and the parts availability is pathetic!. So its a vicious circle, the consumers thought process will change and we will all be buying variety of cars instead of the run of the mill stuff, and the parts and spares scene will also improve for all manufacturers' cars.

Regarding the Cedia, the car was a failure mainly because of HM. It's indeed the lack of service centres and shoddy service that turned customers away..And perhaps poor marketing. It just doesnt hold much brand value in the Indian market (for the uninitiated car buyer, it counts a lot).
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Old 14th July 2012, 10:39   #35
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Default Re: HM adds new tech to Mitsubishi Cedia

As I already said, not buying a Cedia because of shortage of dealers is understandable. But not buying it because its outdated or because HM has not updated other cars like the pajero and Lancer does not make sense.

Lets be honest. Most of us are prisoners of the INdian herd mentality, that finds safety in doing what everybody else is doing and not being individualistic and taking a chance on things for their reward and suffering their costs.

That is the truth. All this talk of how the Cedia is outdated or, how its not worth buying because HM has left OTHER products outdated is just the excuses we make so we have a dignified reason to offer for not buying the Cedia than that "i don't want to take a risk on a good car"

Last edited by Harbir : 14th July 2012 at 10:57.
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Old 14th July 2012, 12:09   #36
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Default Re: HM adds new tech to Mitsubishi Cedia

On similar lines of wantarangerover,
enthusiasts still wont buy a Cedia because:

Even a enthusiast still wants resale value. Cedia depreciates more than 50% in 2 years which no ones wants to bear/pay for pure driving pleasure.

Even if you buy a new Cedia, it will never look new to anyone - colleagues, cousins, neighbours. We all live in a social world. No pretensions but a feel good NEW WOW factor lacks with Cedia.

Along with engine and chassis, one also wants good looking fresh lively feel interiors which make it look new when one upgrades. Cedia's interiors though not bad in quality, the instrument cluster looks like its from 90's.

The Skoda RS failed/bombed in sales, but is a hit in the used market because that is where it is worth but not worth brand new.

In mass sense, Enthusiast definition is not only someone who wants to corner at at junction or brake hard post every acceleration stint or be the racer-boy. An enthusiast is someone who just enjoys driving (solo/family) - be it drive to work, dinners, social-dos, vacations, off-road. The vehicle should suit the driver's driving style. In a city oriented drive, one does not want a stiff suspension as it will impact/spoil his driving pleasure. So a driver who wants a soft setup is not necessarily a non-enthusiast. We love the Cedia's sure slotting hard gearbox. I have seen many who came from Hyundai / Honda world complaining that Cedia gearbox is very hard to slot.

The only way the Cedia can maybe now sell is by pricing at sub Honda City price levels with full equipment. It should follow what Baleno did (9 OTR to 7 OTR to 6.xx OTR) and then slowly fade away or plong a factory CNG kit (if costs permit) and sell at sub 10 OTR.
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Old 14th July 2012, 12:21   #37
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Default Re: HM adds new tech to Mitsubishi Cedia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
Whether the Cedia is more or less fun to drive than the civic or the Laura is not the most relevant question. What is relevant is that it absolutely BLOWS AWAY all the competition in its price range.
Well obviously it will blow away all its competition, its from a segment above. And the car is so old now that Mitsubishi can sell it at such a price. No one is doubting the capabilities of the Cedia itself, its great, but the fact is Mitsubishi needs to do something if they actually want to sell cars here rather than add a tablet and say new tech in Cedia.

Last year when the Cedia sports with the black interiors, touch screen, bodykit was on sale it was good. Now I think its back to only beige interiors, and some more features deleted. The fact is the new Lancer should be sold here, but we are still getting an old car. The Pajero is old too, but that still has appeal to many people, but not the Cedia.

Also looking at your table, you say you are talking from an enthusiasts point of view, but do we actually do 20-80 or 40-100 in 3rd and 4th? If we wanna go quick well downshift and give it the beans. I'm not saying it doesn't matter, but to say its the quickest because of in gear acceleration IMO isn't right. Flat out the Civic is quicker. And yes the Rapid is tuned differently, so is the suspension.

Last edited by Akshay1234 : 14th July 2012 at 12:24.
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Old 14th July 2012, 17:21   #38
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Default Re: HM adds new tech to Mitsubishi Cedia

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Originally Posted by akshay1234 View Post
Well obviously it will blow away all its competition, its from a segment above. And the car is so old now that Mitsubishi can sell it at such a price.
Please tell me what about it is old compared to the other cars in its price class, and please tell me how that affects driving enthusiasts more than the actual driving qualities and refinement of the car.

I keep feeling like I am being offered irrelevant excuses. For one thing the Cedia does not look dated compared to most of the cars in the class. For another thing, its drive is much superior to everything else in the class, meaning being modern doesn't seem to endow the other cars with any palpable advantages to those cars over the cedia.

I see very practical reasons to not buy a Cedia, they being thin dealer network and low resale. I see no reasons that are inherent to the Cedia itself as a vehicle, and the reasons I keep getting given hold no water as far as I can see.

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Originally Posted by akshay1234 View Post
do we actually do 20-80 or 40-100 in 3rd and 4th? If we wanna go quick well downshift and give it the beans. I'm not saying it doesn't matter, but to say its the quickest because of in gear acceleration IMO isn't right. Flat out the Civic is quicker.
The table combines both in gear and through the gears figures. I am not sure I buy the argument you are making here because 0-100 while being flat out through the gears also includes a tyre smoking, clutch smoking high RPM launch, something we don't to our own cars on a routine basis. Perhaps the civic just launches better than the cedia in that kind of a test. perhaps it doesn't but is genuinely faster through the gears. What I've shown is a small spectrum, that shows that the Cedia is a pretty quick car. that it is comparable to the Civic and clearly quicker than all of its price rivals is a notable thing.


I don't know about you guys, but looking, for instance at the interior, I see nothing in, for example the Vento or the City that makes the Cedia look dated.
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HM adds new tech to Mitsubishi Cedia-i14.jpg  

HM adds new tech to Mitsubishi Cedia-2012hondacityinterior.jpg  


Last edited by Harbir : 14th July 2012 at 17:32.
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Old 14th July 2012, 18:13   #39
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Default Re: HM adds new tech to Mitsubishi Cedia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
Please tell me what about it is old compared to the other cars in its price class, and please tell me how that affects driving enthusiasts more than the actual driving qualities and refinement of the car.

I keep feeling like I am being offered irrelevant excuses. For one thing the Cedia does not look dated compared to most of the cars in the class. For another thing, its drive is much superior to everything else in the class, meaning being modern doesn't seem to endow the other cars with any palpable advantages to those cars over the cedia.

I see very practical reasons to not buy a Cedia, they being thin dealer network and low resale. I see no reasons that are inherent to the Cedia itself as a vehicle, and the reasons I keep getting given hold no water as far as I can see.
Look I am not doubting the capabilities of the car. Firstly this car started production internationally in 00/01 and was phased out in 06/07. The car was launched here in 06 with a 10l+ ex showroom price tag which was equivalent to the 2nd to top Corolla at that time. By this time the older Lancer had already been dragged on for about 8 years, and while it sold excellently the first few years sales dwindled by the time the Cedia came because it was launched a few years after it should have been. Mitsubishi was already low on dealer network and didn't have the greatest after sales even at that time, peoples trust in the brand had gone down. With a high price people didn't want to buy the Cedia. Yet enthusiasts did.

In 07 the new Lancer was launched internationally (which many people knew about, and also magazines have been going on from 08 that the new Lancer would come here soon), which IMO looks much better than the Cedia. Again looks are subjective, so for you to say the Cedia doesn't look dated compared to cars in its class is your view. Then again do remember the cars in Cedias class are the Corolla and Civic. The only reason it is priced a segment below is because its been dragged on for so long without replacement.

The enthusiast in India needs more than just driving pleasure, since many people here have only one car it needs to be kind of an all rounder while providing driving pleasure. It needs to have a certain image, and a feel good factor. Yes there are enough of people who don't care about that, but then again there are many who do.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
The table combines both in gear and through the gears figures. I am not sure I buy the argument you are making here because 0-100 while being flat out through the gears also includes a tyre smoking, clutch smoking high RPM launch, something we don't to our own cars on a routine basis. Perhaps the civic just launches better than the cedia in that kind of a test. perhaps it doesn't but is genuinely faster through the gears. What I've shown is a small spectrum, that shows that the Cedia is a pretty quick car. that it is comparable to the Civic and clearly quicker than all of its price rivals is a notable thing.

I don't know about you guys, but looking, for instance at the interior, I see nothing in, for example the Vento or the City that makes the Cedia look dated.
I don't think you need to launch from 4000rpm everytime you do 0-100, sure it you want the best time then yes but otherwise you could just start off normally and then give it full throttle saving some clutch burning. I mean I do that from a signal whenever I see an open stretch and want to speed a bit. I think a 40-80 in 2nd and a 60-100 in 3rd are more appropriate tests and something we would use more often in actual overtaking. I also believe the Civic would be ahead in these tests. Again let me say I'm not trying to take anything away from the Cedia here, it is plenty quick, just talking about the relevance of the in gear tests.

As for the interiors, they have changed. Did the car you TDed have those interiors? I believe they are back to beige seats with wood trim, the touchscreen in gone, and the instrument cluster has changed a bit. The ACC knobs do look old.

I think the basic point is that people here want the new Lancer, and that is something Mitsubishi should have got here a while ago. Most manufacturers get us products a few months, maybe a year after the international launch. And awareness in consumers has also gone up a lot, no one wants a generation old car, unless of course someone wants to do an EVO conversion or something.
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Old 14th July 2012, 18:15   #40
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Default Re: HM adds new tech to Mitsubishi Cedia

Only wish HM was as enthu as us enthusiasts here. They can start doing that by giving a City like bangalore a full fledged sales & service outlet for starters.

Point taken. The Cedia is truly a sales dud. But it is only because HM doesn't want to sell it, and not because it's NOT a contemporary product.
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Old 14th July 2012, 18:22   #41
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Default Re: HM adds new tech to Mitsubishi Cedia

This is exactly what doctor ordered. Better late than never, with this killing move HM has delivered the master stroke required to make Cedia the market leader. Many folks who were sitting on the edge will now take the plunge. Be prepared for huge waiting periods. I hope HM assembly is equiped to handle the onslought of customers that would be hoarding their showrooms and booking the car. I sincerely urge HM not to screw things up this time and hope their assembly can cope up with the increased demand and manufacture 10 cars per month to meet the anticipated increased customer demand.
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Old 14th July 2012, 18:55   #42
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Default Re: HM adds new tech to Mitsubishi Cedia

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Originally Posted by akshay1234 View Post
The enthusiast in India needs more than just driving pleasure, since many people here have only one car it needs to be kind of an all rounder while providing driving pleasure. It needs to have a certain image, and a feel good factor. Yes there are enough of people who don't care about that, but then again there are many who do.
I don't see how the Cedia is not an all rounder. Is it short on space? Does it have poor ride quality? Inadequate trunk? Worse in urban use? Worse for highway use? Unreliable? Is it too noisy?

As to the comments about the interior, the other cars in the class aren't flawless either. The city's interior uses cheap plastics and its center console looks like $49 boombox from wal-mart. The Vento and Rapid interior looks like a dreadfully plain low rent hard wearing interior of a german taxi. The Linea's interior plastics quality is just terrible.

I am repeatedly left with only dealer network sparseness, illusions about datedness, image issues and the low resale as reasons to not buy the Cedia. All very practical and all completely non-enthusiast like.

Indeed the indian car enthusiast is not very mature. he has not come out of the typical indian herd mentality to take a risk for things that are pleasurable to him personally, regardless of whether they are pleasurable to society as a whole.
Quote:
I don't think you need to launch from 4000rpm everytime you do 0-100,
The best times from a standing start are always achieved with a high rpm launch. The objective is to keep the engine in the powerband all the way through. The launch that works best is the one that allows the tires to hook up the most quickly while leaving the engine in the middle of the powerband when they do. If you don't dump the clutch at high RPM, the car will have to climb in first gear through the bottom end of the RPM range and will lose many seconds in the 0-100 dash compared to what it would have had it done a proper drag style launch.

0-100 and 0-60mph tests are infact not the most reliable indicators of a car's performance on the road because the car's behavior during a high rpm launch, and the driver's skill and experience, matter a lot in the test but not in street driving. This is why Car and Driver developed the 5mph-60mph rolling start test. This test removes the high rpm clutch drop and shows how fast a car will truly be when you just pushing down the throttle and going through the gears. It penalizes cars with peaky engines which can put down good 0-100 numbers due to high RPM launches, but do not show that speed in street driving unless they're banged off the redline all the time.

If a car is quicker in the 0-100 with a racing launch, but slower in testing that makes it race through almost the entire rev range in one gear, that indicates its in fact a slower car on the road because it won't produce the high speed unless the engine is kept at the high revs. based on the numbers in the table I have posted above, I am satisfied that the Cedia will be quicker on the road than the civic unless the civic is driven with its engine absolutely SCREAMING.


Thats if the Autocar India 0-100 testing involves standard drag style launches. Now if you know for a fact that this is not how Autocar India does its testing, thats something to consider then.

But in my view, the autocar india 0-100 tests are all certainly done with high rpm clutch drop. If not, they are too unreliable to be meaningful because while a good driver can nail consistent 0-100 drag style launches by figuring out the optimal RPM at which to drop the clutch, if you are just driving off, there are far too many possibilities of the rate at which the driver releases the clutch and presses the throttle to yield meaningfully consistent results.

Last edited by Harbir : 14th July 2012 at 19:07.
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Old 14th July 2012, 19:21   #43
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Default Re: HM adds new tech to Mitsubishi Cedia

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I don't see how the Cedia is not an all rounder. Is it short on space? Does it have poor ride quality? Inadequate trunk? Worse in urban use? Worse for highway use? Unreliable? Is it too noisy?

As to the comments about the interior, the other cars in the class aren't flawless either. The city's interior uses cheap plastics and its center console looks like $49 boombox from wal-mart. The Vento and Rapid interior looks like a dreadfully plain low rent hard wearing interior of a german taxi. The Linea's interior plastics quality is just terrible.

I am repeatedly left with only dealer network sparseness, illusions about datedness, image issues and the low resale as reasons to not buy the Cedia. All very practical and all completely non-enthusiast like.

Indeed the indian car enthusiast is not very mature. he has not come out of the typical indian herd mentality to take a risk for things that are pleasurable to him personally, regardless of whether they are pleasurable to society as a whole.

The best times from a standing start are always achieved with a high rpm launch.

0-100 and 0-60mph tests are infact not the most reliable indicators of a car's performance on the road because the car's behavior during a high rpm launch, and the driver's skill and experience, matter a lot in the test but not in street driving. This is why Car and Driver developed the 5mph-60mph rolling start test. This test removes the high rpm clutch drop and shows how fast a car will truly be when you just pushing down the throttle and going through the gears. It penalizes cars with peaky engines which can put down good 0-100 numbers due to high RPM launches, but do not show that speed in street driving unless they're banged off the redline all the time.
As for the 0-100 launch, I didn't meant to say that it can be as quick by not launching from a high rpm. I know it won't be. I just said that accelerating similar to the 5-60mph rolling start you mentioned would save you on clutch wear and gather less attention to your car on a street Also that is a very sensible test by C&D, and I always enjoy reading their mag.

Again I've said numerous times earlier, I am not saying the Cedia is not a capable car. It is sorted in many ways and is neither of the points you mention above.

Also the cars in its class are the Civic and the Corolla, why not compare the interior to them? Hell Toyota could have continued selling the previous gen Corolla at 8l ex showroom, Honda could have continued selling the previous Accord at maybe 11l ex showroom, Skoda could be selling the Octavia at 9l ex showroom (Infact it was till last year, though a bit more than 9l). The fact is they have got their updated models into India, something which Mitsubishi has not done. Hell if those cars were sold at the price of a segment below, they would certainly be better than its competition in many ways. But that still wouldn't take away the fact that they would be old models.

There are no illusions about the Cedia being old, it is old. And everyone knows its old. Its production stopped in 06 internationally, unless you know otherwise.

Unfortunately for the most of the Indian public, that does play a major decision in their choices, otherwise the Cedia today at this price would render the City, Vento, Rapid, Verna petrol M/Ts useless.
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Old 14th July 2012, 20:04   #44
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Folks I owned a cedia till April 2011, I loved it. The service was good, both in Hyderabad as well as chennai. Till the time I sold it, there was no expenses incurred except for a tire change at 40 k. Even now the same car is with one of my friend who haa clocked some 15 k more bringing the total miles to 60k, it's only now the brake pads are fading and might have to replace.

I am just waiting for current lease on Cruze to get over, another 16 months. Then I will buy a cedia. You have to live with it to feel the addiction.
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Old 14th July 2012, 20:54   #45
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Default Re: HM adds new tech to Mitsubishi Cedia

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I am repeatedly left with only dealer network sparseness, illusions about datedness, image issues and the low resale as reasons to not buy the Cedia. All very practical and all completely non-enthusiast like.

.
Very well summarized Harbir. But even for a not-so-enthusiast Cedia offers tremendous VFM. The absolute control, the ruggedness and the superior comfort does offer a peace of mind while driving long distances. I am owning one since the last 4 years and it never let me down. Additionally it gives the occasional thrills as well . This version is probably old, but still offers the VFM is what I feel.
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