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Old 26th July 2012, 10:17   #226
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

This pic taken from ET of today.
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Link here : Maruti violence: How workers went from celebration to carnage in Manesar - The Economic Times

Isn't the demand outrageous at the onset to even start with on the negotiating table.
I think most of us would love to chuck our jobs and join Maruti on it's shop floor. Looking at the list, we can easily comprehend that there was complete lack of logic in the Worker's demand.
How would you even expect the management to come around and negotiate with such irrational demands of the workers. Beats me!!
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Old 26th July 2012, 10:24   #227
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

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Originally Posted by drive_factor View Post
That compares very favourably with TML where a shop floor workman with 5~7 years under his belt maxes out Rs 16~18K.
Sir you are comparing cost of living in Jamshedpur with that of NCR (I am assuming you are quoting TML, Jamshedpur salaries). Also please note that 2/3rd of the 3000 employees are contract workers who are maxing out at the princely sum of 7K per month in NCR. It would be a big disservice if facts are not quoted in entirety in this discussion.


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Originally Posted by Fordmanchau View Post
This pic taken from ET of today.
Attachment 961873
Link here : Maruti violence: How workers went from celebration to carnage in Manesar - The Economic Times

Isn't the demand outrageous at the onset to even start with on the negotiating table.
I think most of us would love to chuck our jobs and join Maruti on it's shop floor. Looking at the list, we can easily comprehend that there was complete lack of logic in the Worker's demand.
How would you even expect the management to come around and negotiate with such irrational demands of the workers. Beats me!!
This is what is ET is reporting and very well camouflaged I must say using that "We Demand" in bold screaming out. Can we have somebody post the actual charter of demands instead of media's sensationalism. The media very well knows that most us Indians hardly every fact check and they get away by either misreporting or under-reporting.

Last edited by samarjitdhar : 26th July 2012 at 10:29.
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Old 26th July 2012, 10:43   #228
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

^^Let them post the initial offer made by the management as well. Normally in wage negotiations the offer made by management will be laughably low; so the demand from the Union will be ridiculously high. The ultimate increase after signing may be around 25%.
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Old 26th July 2012, 10:57   #229
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

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I'm repeating again. 'What' is the other side? I know its the workers' story. 'What' is 'that story' that you are supporting to justify murder, even if by a mob?
That will come out only when gagged workers or their jailed union leaders come out in front of media . apparently media is too busy supporting MSIL right now anticipating the AD revenue they might get for supporting them . example being the article published in HT today quoted below .

As for ET goes, it has been proved more or less on this forum itself that their reporting is biased , irrational and one sided. anyways i don ;t trust these media houses . they are more or less busy promoting the propaganda of the rich party .

Again I have repeatedly said, putting in once more that i am not supporting violence or justifying the GM ;s death in anyways. repeatedly i have said that those responsible must be held and dealt with as per law. my point is simple, why should all 3000 + workers be held responsible for the Sins of some 90 people .
(again law is joke, Those involved in graziano case are out on bail already)

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
^^Let them post the initial offer made by the management as well..
I suspect if the said media houses will publish that in all it;s fairness. we all know how fair indian media is !!!!!!!!

Last edited by .sushilkumar : 26th July 2012 at 11:12.
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Old 26th July 2012, 11:17   #230
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

Saw this article on ET which gives the account from a Labor contractor who provided contract workers to Maruti. I dont know how much of this is true, but having spoken personally to my friend who was injured in the riot, this was a planned event. So, I cannot agree that this was a spur of the moment reaction; rather it was well planned brutal assault by some unscrupulous and insane workers.

First person account of the violence at Maruti's Manesar plant - The Economic Times

Last edited by nurni76 : 26th July 2012 at 11:21.
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Old 26th July 2012, 11:44   #231
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordmanchau View Post
This pic taken from ET of today.
Attachment 961873
Link here : Maruti violence: How workers went from celebration to carnage in Manesar - The Economic Times

Isn't the demand outrageous at the onset to even start with on the negotiating table.
I think most of us would love to chuck our jobs and join Maruti on it's shop floor. Looking at the list, we can easily comprehend that there was complete lack of logic in the Worker's demand.
How would you even expect the management to come around and negotiate with such irrational demands of the workers. Beats me!!
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Originally Posted by nurni76 View Post
Saw this article on ET which gives the account from a Labor contractor who provided contract workers to Maruti. I dont know how much of this is true, but having spoken personally to my friend who was injured in the riot, this was a planned event. So, I cannot agree that this was a spur of the moment reaction; rather it was well planned brutal assault by some unscrupulous and insane workers.

First person account of the violence at Maruti's Manesar plant - The Economic Times
IMO reports coming out of Times group should be taken with a pinch of salt! They are paid propaganda machines than a newspaper.
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Old 26th July 2012, 18:36   #232
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

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Originally Posted by .sushilkumar View Post
That will come out only when gagged workers or their jailed union leaders come out in front of media.
you don't know the worker's side, the media hasn't reported anything either and no one other than the 100 in jail (3000 - 100 = 2900) know the problem they had with the management. On what presumptive basis are you or anyone here against the management and with the workers?
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Old 26th July 2012, 18:47   #233
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

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Originally Posted by SLK View Post
you don't know the worker's side, the media hasn't reported anything either and no one other than the 100 in jail (3000 - 100 = 2900) know the problem they had with the management. On what presumptive basis are you or anyone here against the management and with the workers?
nobody knows except me what i know and what i don ;t . Only time will tell that & it;s not ripe with people bearing the emotions on their sleeves, it;s better to play safe .

PS : - I am not way affiliated with MS . I am just another IT worker sweating out for European sitting in India.
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Old 26th July 2012, 22:48   #234
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This thread has been deeply depressing. I presume that most Team BHPians are educated, intelligent members of the Indian upper middle class, representing the best of India. If amongst such an elite group, there are so many who justify murder and instinctively support the mediocre, then this country certainly faces a challenging future. The only explanation I can think of is that people have been brainwashed by the ridiculous socialist bilge dished out in our text books, movies and parts of the media.

Every argument of those who support the violent Maruti workers union is easily rebuttable.

1. The belief that Maruti workers are "poor" and exploited : the per capita income of India is ~USD 1,000 or Rs. 55,000 per annum. Assuming that we have a 60% labor participation rate, the average Indian worker gets an income of Rs. 90,000 per annum - and the median Indian worker earns much less (probably under Rs. 60,000 per annum). The unionised, permanent Maruti workers earn Rs. 25,000 per month - viz about 5x what the median Indian worker earns. These guys are not poor by any stretch of imagination, they are probably in the top 20% of the Indian population. If a company paying relatively unskilled workers 5x the national median wage demands that they work hard, that is not exploitation. Investment Banking analysts routinely work 100+ hours a week.

2. The use of contract labor is wrong, and was a trigger for the violence: the use of contact labor is not wrong - it is a standard practice in every market where a privileged permanent labor elite cannot be fired without a high cost. It is the only way that manufacturing units that face variable production levels can stay competitive without resorting to massive automation. And even the contract labourers who earn between Rs. 5,000 and Rs. 10,000 per month earn between the median and average Indian worker's wage, so they are not extremely poor. And Maruti had a better than average track record of offering such temporary workers an opportunity to become permanent. Further, from what several reports say, the violence was perpetrated by well paid permanent workers, not the temps who stand to starve if the plant shuts down.

3. Jealousy about disparities justifies the violence: disparities in wages are a natural outcome of differences in skill levels in a globalising world. Increased inequality in India and in the US leads to reduced inequality at a global level. I grew up in the 1970s and 1980s, and a highlight of my childhood was getting hand me down clothes and toys from my American cousins once every 2-3 years. It's only when I grew up that I realised that my father was actually better educated and in a more responsible job than my uncle who chose to migrate. But for most of his career as a middle and then senior manager in a top 25 Indian company, he earned less than a 10th of what his brother earned as a professor in a mid ranking US university. Even in the mid 1990s when I graduated from an IIM, the highest salaries on campus (Rs. 6 lakhs or USD 15,000) were under an eight of what graduates from leading US B schools earned, a fourth of what even my friends who did an MS in the US could make, and less than a half the wage of the ordinary US factory worker with a high school degree. This represented a morally unjustifiable inequality between people of similar skill levels based on an accident of birth.

Globalisation is reducing the inequality between people of similar skill levels - wages for techies or MBAs in India are much closer to (but still materially below) those of Americans with similar skills. The disparity between the ordinary Indian factory worker and the ordinary American factory worker still exists. But our permanent workers at Maruti now earn a fifth of what a US factory worker makes despite the much higher capital investment and automation in US industry. This difference will reduce further, and increase inequality in both India and the US. In fact the real disparity is between such semi skilled workers and the unskilled folks toiling as farm labor.

4. Labor Unions and strict labor laws win a better life for the poor - protected permanent employees are NOT poor, they are far richer than the median Indian. Poverty can be eliminated only by moving people out of farms and into factories, but factories will not come up in India and provide mass employment if their owners and managers have to risk their lives to run their businesses. Unions and labor laws create a labor aristocracy, a class of insiders who get above average wages by stiffing outsiders. Even a Rs. 5,000 per month, hire and fire factory job is better than working as a farm labourer. Legalising contract labor would boost employment, lead to higher growth and lift millions out of their wretched existence.

5. The share of Suzuki's profits coming from India justifies forcing them to pay Indian workers more- not true. Employment decisions are made based on productivity and opportunity cost. If Suzuki were forced to pay Indian workers more, they would employ more robots - or outsource more sub assemblies to non union suppliers. The wage of insiders cannot be dramatically higher than those of outsiders with similar skills on a sustained basis. Profits are a function of people liking and paying for Maruti cars, and the efficiency with which they are made - which is largely a reflection of the productivity of designers, marketers and managers - not assembly line workers.

If we fail to recognise these truths, we will doom ourselves to returning to the lost decades that India faced between 1947 and 1991, and will once again drive all those who are talented, dynamic and free from family constraints to seek greener pastures outside our nation.

Sorry for the long post which drifted off topic but this is something I feel very strongly about.

Last edited by Hayek : 26th July 2012 at 22:52.
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Old 27th July 2012, 00:01   #235
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
1. The belief that Maruti workers are "poor" and exploited : the per capita income of India is ~USD 1,000 or Rs. 55,000 per annum. Assuming that we have a 60% labor participation rate, the average Indian worker gets an income of Rs. 90,000 per annum - and the median Indian worker earns much less (probably under Rs. 60,000 per annum). The unionised, permanent Maruti workers earn Rs. 25,000 per month - viz about 5x what the median Indian worker earns. These guys are not poor by any stretch of imagination, they are probably in the top 20% of the Indian population.

3. Jealousy about disparities justifies the violence: disparities in wages are a natural outcome of differences in skill levels in a globalising world.

Globalisation is reducing the inequality between people of similar skill levels - wages for techies or MBAs in India are much closer to (but still materially below) those of Americans with similar skills. The disparity between the ordinary Indian factory worker and the ordinary American factory worker still exists. But our permanent workers at Maruti now earn a fifth of what a US factory worker makes despite the much higher capital investment and automation in US industry. This difference will reduce further, and increase inequality in both India and the US. In fact the real disparity is between such semi skilled workers and the unskilled folks toiling as farm labor.

5. The share of Suzuki's profits coming from India justifies forcing them to pay Indian workers more- not true.

If we fail to recognise these truths, we will doom ourselves to returning to the lost decades that India faced between 1947 and 1991, and will once again drive all those who are talented, dynamic and free from family constraints to seek greener pastures outside our nation.

1) As per latest Wikipedia figures, India's GDP is 1.676 trillion i.e. equal to Rs. 92180000000000 ( with $1=55 INR conversion rate ).
Population of India : 1210000000
If I have not messed up with numbers,
92180000000000/1210000000 = 76181 INR per head/year
76181 = $1385 per head/year.

76181/12=6348 INR per month. i.e. $115 a month per head.

So, yes, the workers are not poor, but are they earning enough to run a family of even 4 ? Assume that a worker is making Rs. 25,000 a month and has a family of 4 with self, wife and two kids.
You think its enough ? Lets make is Rs. 50,000 with an equally qualified wife earning similar amount.
Rs. 50K per month ( CTC i.e. ) is enough in NCR region for a family of 4 ?

Point is, by no means are we rich, forget US. US has got a better police force, day to day facilities are easier to access, better public transport, cheaper fuel and electricity. Life is very different there.

Forget skill sets, etc. Indian politicians are not capable ( which is proven beyond doubt now ) but still they earn good, are not poor. Why workers then ? Police force, politicians, govt. office workers, etc. are useless ( well most of them ) still they live a better life than workers. Why ?


Inequality in pay, inflation, corruption, all things get in way of what a worker thinks. IMO, workers are paid less given the current inflation and current day expenses.

BTW, what is definition of poor ? Govt. definitions are as useless as a heater in summer in India.

3) Err, are you sure ? I doubt that. And given the cost of living in India, should we not be paid more ?

5) Agree with you. Suzuki does a lot of R&D which is not possible in India for one reason or other.

India :
Dr. Rajendra Prasad used to donate much of his salary amount. He kept very few things for himself.
Dr. Rajendra Prasad did not have enough funds when he was out of his position ( as president ). He wanted to buy a car, but not enough funds. He wrote to the then PM(or president, not sure on this ) for some funds, but they refused. Dr. Rajendra Prasad bought an old car which had to be hand started.

Are we living in similar India with Similar leaders ? There are multiple images floating on net where we can see our present President ( who is also commander in chief of discipline forces ) sleeping in parliament as FM.

Here, the case is not about only laws, but of day to day life of an Indian. Life is just getting more and more tougher. May social, economical and political factors might be involved.

Violence at Maruti plant reflects social unrest: Azim Premji - Times Of India

Last edited by aaggoswami : 27th July 2012 at 00:05.
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Old 27th July 2012, 02:10   #236
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

Hi!

I have heard about the trouble at Maruti in the news a few days ago here in Germany. The reason was a conflict about the caste? Is it true?
It´s bad that humans lose their life needless....
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Old 27th July 2012, 06:42   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami

1) As per latest Wikipedia figures, India's GDP is 1.676 trillion i.e. equal to Rs. 92180000000000 ( with $1=55 INR conversion rate ).

76181 = $1385 per head/year.

76181/12=6348 INR per month. i.e. $115 a month per head.

So, yes, the workers are not poor, but are they earning enough to run a family of even 4 ? Assume that a worker is making Rs. 25,000 a month and has a family of 4 with self, wife and two kids.
You think its enough ? Lets make is Rs. 50,000 with an equally qualified wife earning similar amount.
Rs. 50K per month ( CTC i.e. ) is enough in NCR region for a family of 4 ?

Point is, by no means are we rich, forget US. US has got a better police force, day to day facilities are easier to access, better public transport, cheaper fuel and electricity. Life is very different there.

Forget skill sets, etc. Indian politicians are not capable ( which is proven beyond doubt now ) but still they earn good, are not poor. Why workers then ? Police force, politicians, govt. office workers, etc. are useless ( well most of them ) still they live a better life than workers

3) Err, are you sure ? I doubt that. And given the cost of living in India, should we not be paid more ?

5) Agree with you. Suzuki does a lot of R&D which is not possible in India for one reason or other.

]
1. I don't think I said all Indians are rich. But Maruti workers are certainly not poor by Indian standards. Peope support families of 4 at well below Rs. 10,000 per month (think of drivers for example), and assembly line workers are not much more skilled than drivers. And the median worker at Manesar is just 24 - and certainly should not be supporting a family of 4. And face it, the Maruti worker making Rs. 3 lakhs a year makes more than most engineers did 10 years ago (even adjusting for inflation, it amounts to Rs. 1.5 lakhs at 2002 prices).

Agree fully on the quality of our government services - government servants in India are the most over paid in the world especially when you consider the massive NPV of their pensions, but that does not justify violence.

3. Certainly. When I started my career, the India - US spread in most jobs was 10x. Now it is just 2-3x (perhaps widened a but due to the INR falling from 45 to 55) for mid level technical jobs, and for managerial jobs anywhere above the entry level.

Last edited by Hayek : 27th July 2012 at 06:43.
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Old 27th July 2012, 09:07   #238
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

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I had visited the Manesar plan 3 years ago and the worker hardly looked exploited. On the contrary their body language and demeanour seemed intimidating. I was silently pitying the shopfloor managers. Needless to add most of them looked prosperous and took upon the job as a birthright.

Meanwhile, Maruti workers want lakh a month - Hindustan Times
And yes Suzuki San while you are at it, can you also find a few fair, domesticated wives for the eligible lads? Arigato Gozaimasu. That compares very favourably with TML where a shop floor workman with 5~7 years under his belt maxes out Rs 16~18K.

Wait! It gets better!!Impeccable logic these murderers bring to the negotiations table.

I recall in 90's Maruti wages/salaries ratio was about 13% of turnover whereas TML was under 7%.

My condolences to the family of the manager who was murdered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordmanchau View Post
This pic taken from ET of today.
Attachment 961873
Link here : Maruti violence: How workers went from celebration to carnage in Manesar - The Economic Times

Isn't the demand outrageous at the onset to even start with on the negotiating table.
I think most of us would love to chuck our jobs and join Maruti on it's shop floor. Looking at the list, we can easily comprehend that there was complete lack of logic in the Worker's demand.
How would you even expect the management to come around and negotiate with such irrational demands of the workers. Beats me!!
Clearly, the demands are outrageous! A 50-75% hike would be a good starting point for talks. Those workers are digging their own grave. They need to do a research of how many people in India and having what qualifications earn in excess of 1L per month.
Time for Maruti to start production in other places. I'd suggest having one operation in GJ and one in TN. They need to have options.
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Old 27th July 2012, 10:23   #239
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

I am not sure who is at fault, yet violence is not an answer to the situation. A major portion of work force at Maruti is casual / daily staff who might be happy at the time of participating in this act; practically they are at loss due to lockout at plant as they do not earn anything for these days when the plant is not operating.

The lebour ministry should provide necessary support to both parties to fix this problem ASAP else the competition might make use of this opportunity and take away customers waiting for Maruti products. Also I am not sure - could be just a rumour that competition might be providing some kind of support to the striking staff of MSIL, if that is the case, it's a shame. I heard something similar when Tata's were to leave WB, as to how the agitation was funded for so many days in Singur.
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Old 27th July 2012, 10:32   #240
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

^^Violence is the inevitable outcome of frustration. When whatever you say falls on deaf ears, redressal mechanisms are a farce, and law enforcing authorities/Govt are in cahoots with you know who. And unless that frustration is removed, it may happen again. Unfortunately HR personnel are the face of management the workers get to see; so the "I am also doing my job" line is not going to jell with them. They see them as hatchet men, no more and no less.
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