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Old 27th July 2012, 12:13   #241
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

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This thread has been deeply depressing. I presume that most Team BHPians are educated, intelligent members of the Indian upper middle class, representing the best of India. If amongst such an elite group, there are so many who justify murder and instinctively support the mediocre, then this country certainly faces a challenging future. The only explanation I can think of is that people have been brainwashed by the ridiculous socialist bilge dished out in our text books, movies and parts of the media.
At least we agree on something. It is indeed depressing. But I find it very disconcerting that this group of educated, intelligent members of the Indian upper middle class on TBHP belligerently refuses to even admit any divergent viewpoint other members might hold. There is something called a due process of law where the cops investigate and file an FIR based on which a criminal case is conducted in the courts of law. Evidence and counter-evidence is presented before a final verdict can be passed. It is really lamentable that members like the media are baying for blood of all the workers immediately reminiscent of the kind of jungle justice the likes of Aurangzeb or Muhammad Tughlaq administered. It is like my way or the highway. Just a point to note that none of the members holding a divergent viewpoint have ever said that the guilty should not be punished or were justified in doing what they did. As for reference, every developed nation has socialism in some form for the benefit of the citizens who need them and all of these economies have done pretty well over the years. Its another thing that socialism in India is totally misguided and administered for petty gains. We have to stop at some point trying to judge everything using a black and white filter.

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Every argument of those who support the violent Maruti workers union is easily rebuttable.
Actually this statement itself is the most rebuttable statement here. None of the members here have every supported the violent Maruti workers. So let's start from here.

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1. .... The unionised, permanent Maruti workers earn Rs. 25,000 per month - viz about 5x what the median Indian worker earns. These guys are not poor by any stretch of imagination, they are probably in the top 20% of the Indian population. .......Investment Banking analysts routinely work 100+ hours a week.
Very conveniently stated. Only that only one-third of the Maruti workers are permanent workers who earn the quoted figure. Two-thirds are contract workers who one about one-third of what the permanent workers one that was the basic cause of unrest to start with. Please don't go indignant that the very mention of this means all of us support murder because this disparity was pointed out. That's an utterly juvenile way of reasoning things. Investment bankers . Quite a few of them have been working really hard in sophisticated versions of money laundering schemes for the uber rich as has been proven in the past few years UBS, HSBC, who's who of Wall Street. Need we cite more. And for those 100+ hour work weeks they have received astronomical bonuses in return and a simple rap on the wrist for financial misdemeanors.

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2. ..... the use of contact labor is not wrong - it is a standard practice in every market where a privileged permanent labor elite cannot be fired without a high cost. It is the only way that manufacturing units that face variable production levels can stay competitive without resorting to massive automation. And even the contract labourers who earn between Rs. 5,000 and Rs. 10,000 per month earn between the median and average Indian worker's wage, so they are not extremely poor. ......Further, from what several reports say, the violence was perpetrated by well paid permanent workers, not the temps who stand to starve if the plant shuts down.
Incorrect again. The labor laws clearly state that for core manufacturing processes cannot use contract labor for the same kind of work. Circle back a few posts and the reference can be found. Its another thing that our lackadaisical government pays short shrift to its own laws. Good or bad these are laws laid down already and there is a due process for changing them. It cannot lie on the whims of any organization on how to conform with them. Unfortunately in our country law enforcement is a joke and truth never ever comes out because the most moneyed and vested interests will buy a judgement in their favor. So unless there is an impartial inquiry let's not prejudge as to what actually happened. BTW Rs 5K per month used to be really a struggle 15 years back in NCR. Sure they are not dying of starvation there but I feel with that princely amount does not make them jump up with joy exactly.

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........3. Jealousy about disparities justifies the violence: disparities in wages are a natural outcome of differences in skill levels in a globalising world. Increased inequality in India and in the US leads to reduced inequality at a global level. ......
Why are we even comparing India and US in the first place. How much manufacturing exactly does the US engage in today? How can a comparison be even drawn with the US in the current scenario? But for sure both in US and India income inequalities have rapidly increased in the past 10 years. Nobody grudges the wealth acquired by the rich through legitimate means. But being super wealthy doesn't exclude them from the reaches of the law or requirements that they have equal rights as an average worker who maybe earns 1/600th of them. In the US it is even more funny that most of the wealth is acquired by paying a way way low amount of income taxes (capital gains tax stands at 15%) since that money is earned because a substantial amount of money/shares stayed in some dude's account for exactly 15 minutes.

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4. Labor Unions and strict labor laws win a better life for the poor - protected permanent employees are NOT poor, they are far richer than the median Indian. Poverty can be eliminated only by moving people out of farms and into factories, but factories will not come up in India and provide mass employment if their owners and managers have to risk their lives to run their businesses. Unions and labor laws create a labor aristocracy, a class of insiders who get above average wages by stiffing outsiders. Even a Rs. 5,000 per month, hire and fire factory job is better than working as a farm labourer. Legalising contract labor would boost employment, lead to higher growth and lift millions out of their wretched existence.
So basically is the point being made is we should have less farmers and more factory workers? Even with the impending global food crisis? What should we be chewing on? The rear seats of our car? Okay we can make a point that we employ more and more people in factories as hire and fire contract workers and replace farming with more automation maybe (though hardly possible with the horrible fragmented ownership of rural lands in India). But let's say even if we did that, what happens to the hire and fire workers when they are fired. We do realize that India simply doesn't have a social safety net to support them. The salaries they get on contract will be way to low for them to save anything for periods of unemployment. What should they do then? Go back to those farms where they came from but ouch those farms are already automated . So umm what do they do then?

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5. The share of Suzuki's profits coming from India justifies forcing them to pay Indian workers more- not true. Employment decisions are made based on productivity and opportunity cost. If Suzuki were forced to pay Indian workers more, they would employ more robots - or outsource more sub assemblies to non union suppliers. The wage of insiders cannot be dramatically higher than those of outsiders with similar skills on a sustained basis.
Actually if Suzuki could they would have employed more robots, but they made a conscious decision for not doing it because it didn't support their cost case. Industrial robots cost an astronomical investment compared to the pitiful returns they get manufactured out of each car. Suzuki is doing and has already done what they could do to get the maximum bang for the buck they have invested in India. We would be living in a fools paradise if we thought that Suzuki is doing a social service in India.

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Profits are a function of people liking and paying for Maruti cars, and the efficiency with which they are made - which is largely a reflection of the productivity of designers, marketers and managers - not assembly line workers.
This though is the clincher. I guess that is why Suzuki has already declared a reduced forecast of profits for the next quarter. Hey only the assembly line workers are not at work. The designers, marketers and managers can show up to work everyday and profits will be back to expected levels isn't it. Priceless.

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If we fail to recognise these truths, we will doom ourselves to returning to the lost decades that India faced between 1947 and 1991, and will once again drive all those who are talented, dynamic and free from family constraints to seek greener pastures outside our nation.
Agreed. But in our zeal for reforms lets also keep in mind that we cannot prescribe only medicines which benefit a limited group of people only while the others are left behind. I know this line of thinking is from a specific school of economics but sadly even after I had tried very hard to rationally analyze this particular school of economics all I have found is it is based on negation of other theories of economics rather than proposing any solutions of their own. Peace out. And yes before I sign off, equally sorry for the long rebuttal as a lot of us feel strongly about these issues too.

Last edited by samarjitdhar : 27th July 2012 at 12:19.
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Old 27th July 2012, 13:29   #242
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
This thread has been deeply depressing. I presume that most Team BHPians are educated, intelligent members of the Indian upper middle class, representing the best of India. If amongst such an elite group, there are so many who justify murder and instinctively support the mediocre, then this country certainly faces a challenging future. The only explanation I can think of is that people have been brainwashed by the ridiculous socialist bilge dished out in our text books, movies and parts of the media.
What;s depressing??

nobody in this thread has justified murder or is it so that talking about workers grievances amount to justifying the Murder !!!!!!!! I cannot find a single post justifying the same . your logic of presumption that all upper middle class is intelligent is highly flawed .it;s not necessary that Rich and upper middle class is a intelligent man. Presumption can be dangerous. As For socialist thinking goes, that ;s the only way out for a diverse society like we have in India. capitalism succeed in US because they didn;t have the challenge of hundreds of different communities.

To Put in words of a famed veteran journalist :- "In India you can be either center or right.there is no left"


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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
1. The belief that Maruti workers are "poor" and exploited
Nice juggernaut of numbers there. I can Only laugh at the way they are presented. Beauty of numbers is that they present everything to the outside which generate curiosity but hides every fact which is relevant. if per capita income is reaching every indian than why there was a need to set that paltry 39 rs as per day for living by famed GOI. So much for numbers. your numbers are again imagination , far away from reality. India does n ;t live in cities, it;s villages where India live. Hopefully you have seen village live to come at the above conclusion.

The wealth distribution hasn ;t been equal in India post 1991 .even Our capital is struggling to meet basic demands of water , electricity and food for it;s inhabitants despite every house being worth crores. So these per capita income and other jargon 's does n ;t hold any water in real world.

just FYI : - A Simple Unfurnished 2 BHK house in decent locality in noida casts some 11k to rent. A simple school admission in a private school takes anywhere north of 25 K as donation itself & another 6-10 K per month as school fees.So yes workers earning some 9-10 K per month are rich man.

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
2. The use of contract labor is wrong, and was a trigger for the violence: the use of contact labor is not wrong - it is a standard practice in every market where a privileged permanent labor elite cannot be fired without a high cost.
That;s a practice in developed market like Europe where labor laws are strong and cannot be bended. Indian labor laws clearly states that contractual labor is for short term needs & i guess you know that we are a developing economy & labor laws are as ancient as India itself. where as a Air India pilot is classified as a worker , same time a IT worker is not even covered via labor laws.


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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
3. Jealousy about disparities justifies the violence: disparities in wages are a natural outcome of differences in skill levels in a globalizing world.
All workers are majorly Till ITI educated and doing same work . SO where is disparity in skill levels which justifies their different salaries??


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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
4. Labor Unions and strict labor laws win a better life for the poor - protected permanent employees are NOT poor, they are far richer than the median Indian. Poverty can be eliminated only by moving people out of farms and into factories, but factories will not come up in India and provide mass employment if their owners and managers have to risk their lives to run their businesses. Unions and labor laws create a labor aristocracy, a class of insiders who get above average wages by stiffing outsiders. Even a Rs. 5,000 per month, hire and fire factory job is better than working as a farm labourer. Legalising contract labor would boost employment, lead to higher growth and lift millions out of their wretched existence.
OK so you mean those doing farming are living a wretched existence. strict labor laws & Unions are a must in india to protect workers interest. History is filled with labor unrest because the owners never bothered to give their dues to workers .do win a better life for labor. at least he gets what;s due to him.

As for moving farmers to factories goes, i hope you know that agriculture is the backbone of indian economy. What we eat comes from those very farmer who you think should be moved to factories !!!!!

recommending hire & fire is Again a classic of being living away from realities of workers life !!!
Hire and fire works where govt;s social security net is strong like europe / US economies. Untill that happens i don ;t think hire & fire is appropriate. it will only increase such cases of arson and violence.

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
5. The share of Suzuki's profits coming from India justifies forcing them to pay Indian workers more- not true. Employment decisions are made based on productivity and opportunity cost. If Suzuki were forced to pay Indian workers more, they would employ more robots - or outsource more sub assemblies to non union suppliers. The wage of insiders cannot be dramatically higher than those of outsiders with similar skills on a sustained basis. Profits are a function of people liking and paying for Maruti cars, and the efficiency with which they are made - which is largely a reflection of the productivity of designers, marketers and managers - not assembly line workers.

If we fail to recognise these truths, we will doom ourselves to returning to the lost decades that India faced between 1947 and 1991, and will once again drive all those who are talented, dynamic and free from family constraints to seek greener pastures outside our nation.

Again off the mark IMO. So you mean that designers, marketers and managers are the one who sweat on the shop floor. Not worker !!!!!! Workers are already providing them high productivity so their demand for higher wages & better facilities is some what justifies

I am not against liberalization in anyway but the wealth creation is centered around few centers. Has anybody wondered why there is so much influx into cities of migrant laborers from states like UP / Bihar / MP . it;s because liberalization hasn ;t provided them opportunities same as those living in cities. between 1947 - 91 , although growth was less ( what was called as Hindu rate of growth Some 3 - 3.75 % every year) but social divide was less . so despite less wealth we all were happy . you think society is more happy now!!. I don;t think so. there has been a increase in everything . be it murders or looting or chain snatching or aristocracies on poor. our early life leader has the fore sightedness to see this and hence they choose the socialism.

Last edited by .sushilkumar : 27th July 2012 at 13:38.
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Old 27th July 2012, 14:21   #243
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

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Originally Posted by .sushilkumar View Post
just FYI : - A Simple Unfurnished 2 BHK house in decent locality in noida casts some 11k to rent. A simple school admission in a private school takes anywhere north of 25 K as donation itself & another 6-10 K per month as school fees.So yes workers earning some 9-10 K per month are rich man.

Sir ji that does not mean you pay your driver 30000Rs per month does it? Similarly every skill set commands a pay scale in the market today. Pray tell me how many companies pay more than 3 lakhs per annum to a worker. I did a random search on naukri and found most jobs listed for ITI people with 3-4 years experience were carrying a package of 90000 to 150000 per year.

Looking at them I dont think Maruti paying their workers is way off the mark. I would say the permanent workers are being payed pretty well if compared to the market standards. If you have any statistics to suggest that an average worker elsewhere earns much more than this, then please share, I ll take my words back. Else I dont think there is any point in singling out Maruti for following Market standards.

Contract workers is a different story but then that is not too bad either. Considering the fact that there are many graduates in NCR area who get paid less than that.

Regarding the 2 BHK, there are ample places in Delhi, forget Noida where one can get decent accomodation for around 6-7K. It wont be a posh locality but pretty decent. There are Government schools for such people who cant afford to send their Kids to Pricey Public schools.

Next what is in line? Since accomodation and schooling is expensive, start paying your watchmen 6 lakhs per annum?

You get paid as per your skill set not just in maruti but every where. Sad but true.

I am a marine engineer and was scouting for a land job. I landed with an offer as Assistant chief engineer at a very prominent 5 star hotel in bangalore offering me 5 lakhs per annum. A graduate Mechanical engineer with 7 years experience being offered 5 lakhs, I dont think an ITI worker being paid 3 lakhs per annum should be worried too much.
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Old 28th July 2012, 09:23   #244
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

Being a haryanvi myself, we know about the history of this area in and out. The area in and around gurgaon/manesar before maruti came in was as backward as it can get. The aboriginals were known dacoits who used to make a living doing stealings and stuff like that. Even today the mewat area around gurgaon is a well known harbour for these gangs who go about their business of doing illegal activities in NCR region. This NCR region has seen sudden rise due to the advent of maruti in 80's, locals sold their land for crores and industry/corporates came in with high incomes and huge spendings, glitzy malls, big cars,suvs and things. So, people who could not achieve a certain level of this affluency (that is by their level,not everbody can be equally affluent, there are levels to it) have got frustration set in. They want easy money with less and less work. Compounding to the situation is the fact that most of these contract workers belong to nearby Chief Minister districts of rohtak, hisar, bhiwani, jhajjar,etc and the people of these districts are dare devils who have hands of politicians over them (they never pay elec bills, steal water from rivers and what not and when the next government comes it pardons all pending elec bills, cases,etc) SO, they have a habit now of feeling invincible. So they seldom fear anybody, leave alone policemen, who are most of the time hand in hand because a fair share goes to their pockets. Another non haryanvi phenomenon which comes from our country being overpopulated is that-their is no respect for life here unlike in the west who value life so much after ther huge losses in the past. People here do not value life, somebody's personal space, respect to ladies,etc.
So, i donot think maruti is exploiting anybody. You are not bound to maruti, if a rival company is paying you more, move to that company. This is the best part in corporate world, the emoluments are mostly market driven. You cannot survive if you pay too less that your competetion, people will leave you and join other cos.
Maoist/naxalites angle is also quite convincing. Corporate rivalry is also highly likely. Recently a certain manufacturer cars got up in flames which which could have been be a huge competetion to a best selling car of a big name in indian automotive industry. So that burning of cars and this agitation could be interlinked. Quike likely!
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Old 28th July 2012, 12:40   #245
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

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Originally Posted by chaudh2s View Post
Being a haryanvi myself, we know about the history of this area in and out. The area in and around gurgaon/manesar before maruti came in was as backward as it can get. The aboriginals were known dacoits who used to make a living doing stealings and stuff like that.
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So, i donot think maruti is exploiting anybody. You are not bound to maruti, if a rival company is paying you more, move to that company. This is the best part in corporate world, the emoluments are mostly market driven. You cannot survive if you pay too less that your competetion, people will leave you and join other cos.
Maoist/naxalites angle is also quite convincing. Corporate rivalry is also highly likely. Recently a certain manufacturer cars got up in flames which which could have been be a huge competetion to a best selling car of a big name in indian automotive industry. So that burning of cars and this agitation could be interlinked. Quike likely!
@chaudh2s your post is as confusing as the situation in MS-Manesar is.

You start with blaming the locals, who you compare with aboriginals/ thugs/ dacoits, etc. much like the Britisher Historians have viewed/ narrated Indians in their twisted version of history books.

I agree with you that the Mewat region is the badland of NCR, but, it is yet to be confirmed whether there was outside influence/ interference in the violence at the plant. Till date the police or any other security agencies have only put up theories of outside people, naxals, etc. to cover up their inaction.

Additionally, we have read & heard more about the management version only, the iPhone bearing union leaders haven't got enough footage.

This is a classic case of "tali do hathon se bajti hai". The management of the company never tried best to get a solution of the problem... once forever. Instead they have been trying to buy temporary truce, & following the divide & rule policy. Separate negotiations are held for separate locations - Manesar, Gurgaon, Powertrain Division, & so on. And, why is more than 75% of the staff contractual rather than regular.

Add to this we have heard about the wonderful working conditions & floor discipline that they have in plants for the workers. I bet Suzuki would not have dared to follow the same in Japan or elsewhere. Don't you think these factors invite mutiny, like one of the friends have pointed out earlier?

The workers' unions are also equally responsible for the mess (they are the ones responsible for the murder of the General Manager as well). The so called mazdoor netas (Sonu Gujjar & i-Phone bearing types) are the ones who along with management played dirty politics in this case, & have fooled the plant workers for their own good, swelling own coffers from workers' resentment... much like our politicians.

Please tell me why a worker should get Rs.2-2.5 lacs p.a. for the manual work requiring no expertise. This is the reason why they are sticking to the company rather than moving to competitor. An engineering (other an IT/ Electronics)/ MBA graduate gets this amount as start-up salary in most cases.

But, I agree this amount & even more as salary for an ITI graduate with 2-3 years experience appointed as supervisor.

However, when you blame these aboriginals' descendants for the violence do you ever consider that these people have been working peacefully for years despite not being regularized (effectively helping the Jap bosses to survive & earn fat bonuses/ dividends).

Regarding your comments like Tatas instigating the workers, why did you not consider Hyundai (perennial No#2), or VW/ Skoda (with their World No#1 aim & burning Ventos/ Rapids). Or probably you want to point out that Tatas are doing similar to what happened in Singur to them.

The increasing Naxal influence in/ around Delhi is a problem, but, again it is yet to be proved with arrest of the Naxal leaders, who are supported by intellectuals & populist leaders, like certain political swami often seen on TV, propagating the benefits of own-urine drinking.

The local police are yet to come up with an explanation for their late arrival to the plant. There were reports in certain quarters that police action was hindered by local politicians of a national party .

I believe Gurgaon has little to owe to MS, & it is Suzuki who owe to India & Indians for their survival, & Gurgaon would have anyhow developed, because of boom in service sector & proximity to airport.

I await with bated breath for a positive outcome of this dispute, which would mean that all parties stakeholders, management, workers, customers & country benefit from a long lasting peace.

AMEN

Last edited by CARDEEP : 28th July 2012 at 12:42.
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Old 28th July 2012, 13:34   #246
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

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chaudh2s your post is as confusing as the situation in MS-Manesar is.

You start with blaming the locals, who you compare with aboriginals/ thugs/ dacoits, etc. much like the Britisher Historians have viewed/ narrated Indians in their twisted version of history books.

I agree with you that the Mewat region is the badland of NCR, but, it is yet to be confirmed whether there was outside influence/ interference in the violence at the plant. Till date the police or any other security agencies have only put up theories of outside people, naxals, etc. to cover up their inaction.
With Aboriginals i meant the original inhabitants of a particular area, no to be confused with someone outcast or any derogatory meaning. My post may be confusing because it is not pointing specifically to any single cause, and it would be immature to point specifically till the investigation are over. There could be three probable angles which i mentioned or a combination thereof which could the reason for maruti woes in my opinion. The locals in NCR because of it's proximity to UP and haryana are bearing the brunt of increasing lawlessness. This is a fact any NCR resident will approve of.
Quote:
However, when you blame these aboriginals' descendants for the violence do you ever consider that these people have been working peacefully for years despite not being regularized (effectively helping the Jap bosses to survive & earn fat bonuses/ dividends).
Regarding your comments like Tatas instigating the workers, why did you not consider Hyundai (perennial No#2), or VW/ Skoda (with their World No#1 aim & burning Ventos/ Rapids). Or probably you want to point out that Tatas are doing similar to what happened in Singur to them.
I didn't specifically named tata, you did CARDEEP & yes they could be any of hyundai, VW, etc.
Gurgaon plant is working fine dear, with no major incident. It is the manesar palnt which has been built just a few years ago where all this crap is taking place.
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Old 28th July 2012, 15:34   #247
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This only reminds me of what my parents taught me...
"jis thaali mein khaate hain usme chedh nahi karte"
I believe the workers learnt it the hard way, I seriously doubt Manesar plant will start functioning soon.

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Originally Posted by 1100D

There are people on either side of the fence.

Moreover collateral damage is a given across most conflicts that spiral out of control, not limited to Indian thinking (let alone a typical one)
Collateral damages are called so when it happens to both sides, when it is only at one side that is planned murder, if the management hires goons and starts killing those responsible for the death of their senior executive, then we can say collateral damage is happening, which side would u take in that case.

Last edited by GTO : 30th July 2012 at 20:42. Reason: Removing double paragraph
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Old 28th July 2012, 17:13   #248
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

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Originally Posted by samarjitdhar View Post
This though is the clincher. I guess that is why Suzuki has already declared a reduced forecast of profits for the next quarter. Hey only the assembly line workers are not at work. The designers, marketers and managers can show up to work everyday and profits will be back to expected levels isn't it. Priceless.
You're missing the point. It's just that the assembly line worker is more easily replaceable than the designers/engineers. Consequently he gets paid less and his wage demands are not so easily met. That's the hard fact. It's not exclusive to Maruti or automotive industry either.

In many IT companies, exits from senior technical positions are considered more serious than exits from the junior positions. Mind you, these are people with probably same educational qualifications, just different levels of experience.

I have close contact with textile retail industry as well. Retaining the store/floor managers there is considered more important than retaining the average salesperson.
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Old 28th July 2012, 17:34   #249
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

Yesterday had been to Autofin Maruti Dealer with a friend who was interested in buying a Swift ZDi.

When we were approached by the sales head he outrightly refused to take any booking for any car that sported the DDiS engine. He says the strike is creating a backlog and not producing any cars so customers would have to wait long. If NOT for the strike then any booking for a diesel vehicle was somehow cleared off within a week's time. Logical and frank from his point of view.

Would have to see how long this strike takes and what is the outcome. Hope the cars made and shipped are throughly checked for any kind of sabotaging done by those workers.
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Old 28th July 2012, 17:45   #250
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
You're missing the point. It's just that the assembly line worker is more easily replaceable than the designers/engineers. Consequently he gets paid less and his wage demands are not so easily met. That's the hard fact. It's not exclusive to Maruti or automotive industry either.

In many IT companies, exits from senior technical positions are considered more serious than exits from the junior positions. Mind you, these are people with probably same educational qualifications, just different levels of experience.

I have close contact with textile retail industry as well. Retaining the store/floor managers there is considered more important than retaining the average salesperson.
Believe me its quite the other way round and being from IT I can confirm that. It is way too painful to replace a relatively experienced developer (an assembly line worker) than a so called project manager in IT. Over the years most managers in IT (I might even fall into one) specially in the service industry have become fat overpaid nincompoops totally out of touch with the line of work they engage in and if they have to dirty their hands doing the work of a developer in an emergency situation (read work in a shop floor) they run with their tails between their legs . But this is completely OT. From what I had heard from first hand experience from those I know in the manufacturing industries this has become true for shop workers and their supervisors/managers.

The point I was trying to make is that just having a bunch of managers and designers is not going to do wonders in any industry. You need a happy set of worker bee to get stuff done. Whether this is achieved using a carrot or a stick or a combination of both is what is called the art of motivation which let me say very clearly from my experience, most Indian managers hopelessly lack. Most of the managers I have dealt with strongly believe in the theory of flogging to get any work done. Those were the golden days of colonial domination which maybe that particular school of economics wants to be brought back again .
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Old 28th July 2012, 19:53   #251
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

Quote:
Originally Posted by samarjitdhar View Post
Believe me its quite the other way round and being from IT I can confirm that. It is way too painful to replace a relatively experienced developer (an assembly line worker) than a so called project manager in IT.
But I'm not talking about IT project managers. Just the senior technical guys. Some companies (mainly in service business) run their projects by using relatively inexperienced (and easily replaceable) engineers/non-engineers working under "technical" direction/supervision from a team of much more experienced guys. And the companies do their best to hold the core technical team in place while the relatively inexperienced "assembly-line workers" change all the time.
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Old 28th July 2012, 20:56   #252
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
But I'm not talking about IT project managers. Just the senior technical guys. Some companies (mainly in service business) run their projects by using relatively inexperienced (and easily replaceable) engineers/non-engineers working under "technical" direction/supervision from a team of much more experienced guys. And the companies do their best to hold the core technical team in place while the relatively inexperienced "assembly-line workers" change all the time.
I know we both are seriously . Strictly speaking as a IT services industry insider take it from me, not only the project managers but even most of the senior technical guys are excellent in building strategies in the cloud without having any clue of any implementation details or implications. Ask those technical folks to put together a prototype and they will be totally at sea. No wonder over 90% of IT projects are utter failures. Its a lethal mix of lofty and misguided technical decisions made by the evangelists and helpless project management who have no technical clue about what is going on. Lets get back to topic now .

Last edited by samarjitdhar : 28th July 2012 at 20:57.
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Old 29th July 2012, 13:06   #253
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

Interesting articles

The Hindu : Business / Industry : Down and out on India

The Hindu : News / National : Roadblocks to rights in
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Old 29th July 2012, 14:51   #254
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

Another video article on this by NDTV

Truth vs Hype: Maruti's day of rage Video: NDTV.com
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Old 29th July 2012, 15:06   #255
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Default Re: Strike woes haunt Maruti's Manesar plant again. 1 DEAD & Production hit

another article
Can India Inc. face the truth about the Manesar violence? - Analysis - DNA
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