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Old 26th July 2012, 10:34   #16
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Default re: Gujarat: All cars to be on CNG by July 2013! (Psst..didn't happen)

Read this news in the morning and i was wondering how would a car owner refuel when he travels outside the state where the availability of CNG everywhere is questionable.

Maybe good thinking and possibly good plan for the future, but tough the implement unless its a country wide effort. As a near term goal they should surely convert every vehicle that plays only on city streets to CNG.
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Old 26th July 2012, 10:38   #17
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Default re: Gujarat: All cars to be on CNG by July 2013! (Psst..didn't happen)

This is not a good move if implemented. First of all, there is not enough infrastructure for CNG. There must be atleast 20 times more CNG stations than current numbers. CNG filling is not as fast and as convenient as diesel or petrol. More number of stations are required to reduce the queue.

Right now we have 2 CNG cars and trust me, filling them up is very tough. The recent petrol price instability means that the queues have tripled. Most of the times we go to fill up, there are 25 car in queue. Moreover, only at one dispenser there is MGV/NGV CNG valve for factory fitted CNG cars from maruti.

I also read in TOI report around a month back that Gujarat is now thinking of NOT having CNG buses for state transport corporation as they are not giving actual cost benefits. On one hand even state transport is not happy with CNG, and on the other hand, why is general public made to switch to CNG. Its not logical.

1) Wait in long queues.
2) What happens in case of small cars ? The available boot space is gone. The car can no longer be used as a family touring car.
3) Maintenance in long term can be higher if the engines are not factory tested and modified
4) Cost of CNG. Adani sells for Rs. 53 per kg. GSPC/GAIL sells at 45.5 per kg. Why ?
Today there is also an article in TOI regarding the HC ordering to sell CNG at Rs. 38 per kg to Autos. Why this disparity ?
Argument from HC is that delhi has cheaper CNG at Rs. 38 than Adani's Rs. 53.

A totally wrong move. Improve govt. vehicles first, next, let the public dedicde, reduce IDT on fuel for those who are honest and regular tax payers.
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Old 26th July 2012, 10:47   #18
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Default re: Gujarat: All cars to be on CNG by July 2013! (Psst..didn't happen)

Another absurd rule that they are trying to implement! Now how practical it is to convert all the four wheelers in a state to convert to CNG?

And as per the report, judges suggested that gas prices be cheaper for public vehicles and higher for private owned vehicles. So, the common man has to first take the hit in converting his car in to CNG and be ready to pay higher prices too? Shouldn't the ones who runs public vehicles for profit be paying higher?

Excerpts from the order which as passed: "The state is directed to pass necessary orders compelling the owners of all vehicles having registration in Gujarat to use natural gas and if necessary, even at higher prices within the shortest possible period, not exceeding one year from today for the protection of lives of citizens"

Ok, if they were so cautious about the environment, start banning vehicles which are not road-worthy or those who doesn't meet the regular emission norms!

I'm wondering the oil companies are going to react to such an rule!!
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Old 26th July 2012, 11:08   #19
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Default re: Gujarat: All cars to be on CNG by July 2013! (Psst..didn't happen)

this is a completely incorrect approach to the resolution of the pollution problem. first they should implement this CNG conversion rule only for public transport (bus, taxi, autos) and in addition to that also fix the roads and remove the bottlenecks for a smoother traffic flow; i am sure when the travel time reduces, the pollution would come down automatically (we typically spend almost 50% of our travel time in an inefficient way - b2b traffic, waiting at signal, etc.). fixing the road and infrastructure is a cost that should be taken up by the govt. but this order by HC passes on the buck to the mango man (aam aadmi).

Last edited by infotech58 : 26th July 2012 at 11:09.
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Old 26th July 2012, 11:17   #20
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Default re: Gujarat: All cars to be on CNG by July 2013! (Psst..didn't happen)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
This is not a good move if implemented. First of all, there is not enough infrastructure for CNG. There must be atleast 20 times more CNG stations than current numbers. CNG filling is not as fast and as convenient as diesel or petrol. More number of stations are required to reduce the queue.
Add to that the limited range of CNG equipped cars, even the cars with tanks big enough to occupy all of the boot space the range is limited to around 200kms or less.

CNG stations cannot be set up anywhere they want just like Petrol pumps, there has to be a underground pipeline for supply. Because of the limited range the density of fuel stations has to be much much higher that present petrol bunks.
  • How can Common Rail Diesel engine equipped cars be converted to CNG?
  • What if Gujarat residents want to travel outside of the state? Who is going to provide them CNG after every 100 or 200 kms (depending on engine size)?
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Old 26th July 2012, 11:28   #21
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Default re: Gujarat: All cars to be on CNG by July 2013! (Psst..didn't happen)

anshuman I agree 100%. Also, what happens to tourism in Gujarat. Nobody can drive into Gujarat since he will not get liquid fuel.

I wonder with Gujarat a dry state somebody cannot be fuelled by Ethanol.
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Old 26th July 2012, 11:32   #22
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Default re: Gujarat: All cars to be on CNG by July 2013! (Psst..didn't happen)

I think it could have been a little different.

With people suffering from respiratory illness, it could have directed the government to take corrective actions. I hope something like this is forced on the governments to respond.

Especially in Bengaluru where allergens are more, its compounded by diesel particle emissions and auto (with the new wave of dirty goods autos making it even more of a disaster).

Since the courts are supposed to oversee laws and rules, with most vehicles not meeting the pollution norms, they can do something about it. Delhi HC took care of Delhi, what about others in the country?

By the way looking at judicial activism, are we in Pakistan or India?

Last edited by srishiva : 26th July 2012 at 11:34.
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Old 26th July 2012, 11:35   #23
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Default re: Gujarat: All cars to be on CNG by July 2013! (Psst..didn't happen)

This will open up a new area where the government will run up deficits by providing subsidies. The court has no business to dictate pricing levels, CNG is not popular in cars because its inconvenient and most people who get a car don't want to be in a queue with autos to fill up. CNG is the only fuel that makes non CRDI diesel car owners feel good about the performance of their cars.

However, safety aspect is also important, in hatches with pint-sized engines, when the brakes fail you can switch on the AC and the car will stop almost instantly. This information was given by a friend who had the misfortune of driving a WagonR(gas powered) to south Kerala, he came back by bus to avoid accompanying his relative on the drive back to Banglaore.
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Old 26th July 2012, 11:38   #24
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Default re: Gujarat: All cars to be on CNG by July 2013! (Psst..didn't happen)

Reminds me of the CSE arguing in Delhi HC for banning Diesel cars. Fortunately, Mr Nariman saved the day (apparently behind the curtains it was Maruti v Tata). Making Public Service vehicles CNG powered was the happy and healthy outcome. What the court said was you define the norms and not the technology.
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Old 26th July 2012, 11:40   #25
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Default re: Gujarat: All cars to be on CNG by July 2013! (Psst..didn't happen)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
anshuman I agree 100%. Also, what happens to tourism in Gujarat. Nobody can drive into Gujarat since he will not get liquid fuel.

I wonder with Gujarat a dry state somebody cannot be fuelled by Ethanol.
Seriously I think governance in country has gone to the dogs and I am not sure, with all due respect, what were the honorable judges smoking before passing such ill-informed judgments. Add to that our totally lackadaisical media who do not bother to report in fully any news in their craze for sensationalizing whatever they can lay their hands on. How can the Nano which is manufactured in the same state run on CNG? Where is exactly the abundance of CNG supply and infrastructure? I mean this is utter craziness unless the honorable judges have some business interests in CNG. Yup corruption of judges is a reality now as has been proven by the arrests in Andhra Pradesh so their integrity is not exactly sacrosanct. An immediate stay must be obtained first on these kind of verdicts otherwise the courts and judges in other states will start getting absurd ideas .
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Old 26th July 2012, 11:54   #26
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Default re: Gujarat: All cars to be on CNG by July 2013! (Psst..didn't happen)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Reminds me of the CSE arguing in Delhi HC for banning Diesel cars. Fortunately, Mr Nariman saved the day (apparently behind the curtains it was Maruti v Tata). Making Public Service vehicles CNG powered was the happy and healthy outcome. What the court said was you define the norms and not the technology.
+1 sir.

I cannot control my laughter looking at this utter --(oh! i am not supposed to use those words in the forum!). So, if they really care about the environment, why can't they ask the government to take initiatives to step up the forest conservation policies, implement the one tree/plantation per house rule, curb/direct the govt. vehicles to be converted to CNG first and finally, implement the rain water harvesting facilities.

On the other hand, emission norms in Germany are much stricter than such idiotic CNG only rules, why cannot such a method be implemented, i.e. in the pollution certificate, start classifying vehicles based on carbon emissions, and only the ones in green will be allowed to enter the city/residential areas, the ones with yellow shall be allowed in the city but will pay more emission tax and the ones in red are not allowed in the city at all.

Such a scientific approach would make more sense than this sheer dumb approach of simply directing something. First, let the Honourable Judge convert his car to CNG and lets see how quickly can he do it and run efficiently! Such directives forces me to think, are these judges really educated ones? Do they even have some aptitude and common sense? Do they even understand the administrative issues behind implementing such a massive project? Do they understand a thing or two about cars or IC engines? Finally, are they even really educated? Even a illiterate would behave with more common sense than these highly educated lawmakers/keepers.

Well, the report is on ToI, so we should take it only with a tonne of salt(a pinch of salt is not enough for ToI).
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Old 26th July 2012, 12:04   #27
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Default re: Gujarat: All cars to be on CNG by July 2013! (Psst..didn't happen)

I don't think any court can direct the union or any state government to pass a law as per its order. On that note alone this judgement cannot stand (or ToI has misreported completely - it is not easy to visualize an HC judge not understanding this point). What will the court do if the assembly does not pass such a law - prosecute the MLAs? That would be fun to watch. :-)

A second point is that this judgement imposes severe, unreasonable restrictions on the fundamental right to move around India freely. This is another way in which this judgement can be challenged in the supreme court.

I hope the SC pulls up the GJ HC for this judgement - it did for the UP one a while back, if I remember correctly.
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Old 26th July 2012, 12:09   #28
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Default Re: Only Cars on CNG within one year in Gujarat!

This came as a surprise today.
Few points:
> Implementing blanket bans is always a long-drawn affair and many a times infeasible
> Agree with someone who mentioned above that just shifting to CNG cannot be a panacea
> The pure size of populace impacted leads me to believe that there is going to be immense resistance to the change
> Think about it. Who benefits monetarily? Powerful business house who is long accused of being very pally with the Guj Govt? Can't rule out this angle either.
> Most likely, this ruling will be challenged and left in limbo or narrowed down to a smaller population of vehicles (Govt/New/Older than 5 years or any other)

On a personal note:
Got a sms from wifey while at work. She found the idea of my painstakingly put-together Jeep to now go in for Gas conversion hilarious and wanted to see the look on my face after reading this article. So yes this is personal.
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Old 26th July 2012, 12:21   #29
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Default re: Gujarat: All cars to be on CNG by July 2013! (Psst..didn't happen)

AAh... The Judge got carried away for sure.
Besides being unreasonable and high handed, the council was taken by surprise with this diktat too.
I wonder what they are going to do to the Mercs, BMWs and Audi's in Ahmedabad.
Practically not feasible to implement within the time frame specified. But who knows in an year or two we might have no fossil fuelled cars in Gujarat.

But can petrol cars be converted ? and what about bikes..
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Old 26th July 2012, 12:26   #30
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Default re: Gujarat: All cars to be on CNG by July 2013! (Psst..didn't happen)

On one side, this might look like some arm twisting by some gas giants in that part of the country, what I am wondering is why are the Fossil fuel giants, BPCL/HPCL/ONGC/Reliance silent? They are much more powerful and of course in this matter, will get the support of the general public(forgetting the recent price rise). It seems lot of political lobbying and arm twisting going on at very high levels in the country. Sad but truth!
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