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Old 20th November 2012, 11:07   #226
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Default Re: Kizashi at a whopping discount of Rs.5 lakhs!! UPDATE: Now at 11.49 L, Details Pg

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
Cos its not turbo charged? The laura generating just 160ps from a 1.8 liter turbo is rather lame imho when most 1.8 to 2 liter germans do over 200. I'd anyday take a high revving petrol over a turbo. Why you ask - cos its much easier to keep an NA engine in its peak power band and on the boil than a turbo. Also you don't have the lousy lag that exists in every single turbocharged engine.

Over a long run, NA engines will be more reliable as well. Everyone knows the number of gremlins any skoda/vw turbo petrol product has long term.Just ask any of the vRS owners.
If the Laura TSI generating 160 ps from a 1.8 litre engine is lame in your opinion then doesn't that make the Kizashi which generates 180 ps from a 2.4 litre engine 'lamer'

The beauty of the TSI engines is that with the help of all the tech and gadgetry it is as fuel efficient (if not more) than the other 1.8 L engined petrol competitors in its class.

And which 1.8L German petrol engined car are you referring to being quicker than the Laura TSi?

Lastly can you point out an unhappy TSI owner on this forum please?

Last edited by Santoshbhat : 20th November 2012 at 11:13.
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Old 20th November 2012, 11:15   #227
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Default Re: Kizashi at a whopping discount of Rs.5 lakhs!! UPDATE: Now at 11.49 L, Details Pg

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Originally Posted by Santoshbhat View Post
If the Laura TSI generating 160 ps from a 1.8 litre engine is lame in your opinion then doesn't that make the Kizashi which generates 180 ps from a 2.4 litre engine 'lamer'

The beauty of the TSI engines is that with the help of all the tech and gadgetry it is as fuel efficient (if not more) than the other 1.8 L engined petrol competitors in its class.

And which 1.8L German petrol engined car are you referring to being quicker than the Laura TSi?

Lastly can you point out to an unhappy TSI owner on this forum please?
180ps from a 2.4 without a turbo is definitely not lame. However 160ps from a 1.8 turbo is lame IMHO. You can easily do a lot more. Also on what basis do you say that it is more fuel efficient - a civic with 130ps from an NA 1.8 has an ARAI FE of 15.xx while the laura has an FE of 13.xx. Also FYI, the ARAI mileage for the kizashi is also in the same ballpark for the MT. So the 1.8 TSI is not very fuel efficient either.

Also the base merc produces 188ps from a 1.8L block and is also quicker than the laura tsi. As for unhappy owners, the 1.8 TSi is still not old enough to show gremlins yet. I had a friend who had spent almost 3L in 5 years of ownership of a 1.8 Octy vRS on simple maintenance. I believe our moderator Ajmat's experience was also similar. Things just kept failing all the time.
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Old 20th November 2012, 11:19   #228
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Default Re: Kizashi at a whopping discount of Rs.5 lakhs!! UPDATE: Now at 11.49 L, Details Pg

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
its much easier to keep an NA engine in its peak power band and on the boil than a turbo. Also you don't have the lousy lag that exists in every single turbocharged engine.

Over a long run, NA engines will be more reliable as well. Everyone knows the number of gremlins any skoda/vw turbo petrol product has long term.Just ask any of the vRS owners.
No. It's much difficult to keep an NA engine in it's peak power band on our highways unless you remain in the lower than ideal gear most of the time. Try driving the NA engine and a turbo petrol back to back on NH17 from Mumbai to Goa. And the low end torque of an NA petrol engine is generally poor so a millisecond turbo lag in the TSi is much better than the lethargic low end performance of an NA engine (and to partially overcome this very issue, the NA engine has to be oversized e.g. 2.4L in this case, which means poor efficiency). Also, GDI helps bump up low end performance even without turbo (and reduce emissions considerably). TSi is not just a turbo petrol, it's GDI. Why is kizashi engine not a GDi?

Yes, Skoda are a not so ethical group of people, but that's not a problem with technology. My friend's 2006 December Octy TPi has been running fine for last 6 years. But yes, not deploying a turbo would mean one less thing to fail. BUT that does not make a safer NA approach impressive. Suzuki is Japanese, so their Turbo should never fail.

In any case, WHY NO GDI???

Last edited by anandpadhye : 20th November 2012 at 11:20.
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Old 20th November 2012, 11:27   #229
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Default Re: Kizashi at a whopping discount of Rs.5 lakhs!! UPDATE: Now at 11.49 L, Details Pg

Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
No. It's much difficult to keep an NA engine in it's peak power band on our highways unless you remain in the lower than ideal gear most of the time. Try driving the NA engine and a turbo petrol back to back on NH17 from Mumbai to Goa. And the low end torque of an NA petrol engine is generally poor so a millisecond turbo lag in the TSi is much better than the lethargic low end performance of an NA engine (and to partially overcome this very issue, the NA engine has to be oversized e.g. 2.4L in this case, which means poor efficiency). Also, GDI helps bump up low end performance even without turbo (and reduce emissions considerably). TSi is not just a turbo petrol, it's GDI. Why is kizashi engine not a GDi?

Yes, Skoda are a not so ethical group of people, but that's not a problem with technology. My friend's 2006 December Octy TPi has been running fine for last 6 years. But yes, not deploying a turbo would mean one less thing to fail. BUT that does not make a safer NA approach impressive. Suzuki is Japanese, so their Turbo should never fail.

In any case, WHY NO GDI???
Does it really matter? Finally what you want from an engine is a uniform torque spread and good revving capabilities with reasonable fuel efficiency. It delivers on all those three fronts. Whether it has GDI or not is of no consequence. Yes it doesn't have GDI cos the engine was probably developed on a lower budget that what VW has at its disposal.

Also on the highway a turbo petrol is fine but what about the city where you spend most of the time in bumper to bumper traffic? Any turbo acts like a dog in traffic. I'd rather shift down once on the highway than struggle to survive in the city everyday. The only engines that don't have the lag issue are the ones that use a twin turbo setup like the ones in the Volvo S60 or the BMW z4. These are almost immune to turbo lag.

Also this is a kizashi discount thread not a laura vs kizashi fight thread. Not sure why the laura landed up in this thread anyway.

Last edited by reignofchaos : 20th November 2012 at 11:29.
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Old 20th November 2012, 11:28   #230
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Default Re: Kizashi at a whopping discount of Rs.5 lakhs!! UPDATE: Now at 11.49 L, Details Pg

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Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
However 160ps from a 1.8 turbo is lame IMHO. You can easily do a lot more. Also on what basis do you say that it is more fuel efficient
Yes, that 1.8 L engine can generate mor epower and torque. So you agree it's a better tech?

From my experience - the 2.4L Accord we have in our circle sucks big time on FE. I did not even bother to bring in Civic here as I thought we were discussing powerful petrol cars which are being targetted at enthusiasts in the market here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
Also the base merc produces 188ps from a 1.8L block and is also quicker than the laura tsi.
Yes, and it's a turbo with GDI. I am not advocating Skoda, I am advocating the technology and in that sence you and I seem to agree?


Quote:
Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
As for unhappy owners, the 1.8 TSi is still not old enough to show gremlins yet. I had a friend who had spent almost 3L in 5 years of ownership of a 1.8 Octy vRS on simple maintenance. I believe our moderator Ajmat's experience was also similar. Things just kept failing all the time.
Well, I just posted our experience with an ever so reliable Octy TPI we have since 2006. And the only thing I seem to be supporting and you are not - is turbo, am I correct? Did Ajmat's turbo ever fail? Forget "Skoda" issues, we all agree they are bad guys :-)


EDIT: Yes this is a Kizashi disconut thread that started discussing why Kizashi should sell, why it should not, how Indians only care about brands, etc so I posted my opinion on why Kizashi may not sell inspite of being a good car in absolute terms - compitition has moved on...too little too late by Suzuki.

Last edited by anandpadhye : 20th November 2012 at 11:34.
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Old 20th November 2012, 11:34   #231
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Default Re: Kizashi at a whopping discount of Rs.5 lakhs!! UPDATE: Now at 11.49 L, Details Pg

Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
Yes, that 1.8 L engine can generate mor epower and torque. So you agree it's a better tech?

From my experience - the 2.4L Accord we have in our circle sucks big time on FE. I did not even bother to bring in Civic here as I thought we were discussing powerful petrol cars which are being targetted at enthusiasts in the market here.
Any better tech is welcome but not at the cost of reliabity. As for the accord - isn't it in a different size class with a far higher kerb weight? Its not really fair to compare it to a kizashi which is just a wee bit bigger than a civic but with a much larger engine.


Quote:
Yes, and it's a turbo with GDI. I am not advocating Skoda, I am advocating the technology and in that sence you and I seem to agree?


Well, I just posted our experience with an ever so reliable Octy TPI we have sice 2006. And the only thing I seem to be supporting and you are not - is turbo, am I correct? Did Ajmat's turbo ever fail? Forget "Skoda" issues, we all agree they are bad guys :-)
The turbo never fails, but everything around it does - this is a generic trait of every volkswagen group car. See the number of DSG failures and clutch failures on this forum itself. not everyone is willing to pay 60k for a clutch overhaul every 50k km. I'm sure that the kizashi's clutch overhaul will cost a tenth of what you pay for the laura.

Quote:

EDIT: Yes this is a Kizashi disconut thread that started discussing why Kizashi should sell, why it should not, how Indians only care about brands, etc so I posted my opinion on why Kizashi may not sell inspite of being a good car in absolute terms - compitition has moved on...too little too late by Suzuki.
If you look at the number of Laura TSis on the road, it'll not be very different compared to a Kizashi. Till date I've only spotted two or three. So if that were the only engine the laura would have launched with, it would have been in the same boat as the kizashi or even far worse. It sells simply because it has a diesel which the kizashi lacks.

Last edited by reignofchaos : 20th November 2012 at 11:37.
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Old 20th November 2012, 12:14   #232
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Default Re: Kizashi at a whopping discount of Rs.5 lakhs!! UPDATE: Now at 11.49 L, Details Pg

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Sorry, none of these are high end (D segment) cars.
Umm... Actually two of those 'are' in the D1 (October 2012 : Indian Car Sales Figures) segment. Regardless, your point was that Indians with money stay away from cheap brands. And, at least for me, cars costing 12+ Lakhs is a lot of money.

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Wasn't the Sonata VFM?
Yes, what it lacks is a diesel heart.
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Old 20th November 2012, 12:20   #233
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Default Re: Kizashi at a whopping discount of Rs.5 lakhs!! UPDATE: Now at 11.49 L, Details Pg

Coming back to the Kizashi discount, yesterday I emailed all the Chennai dealers listed on the MSIL website for details of the price in Chennai. While half of the emails bounced back, no reply yet from the rest. The Goa guys were quick - reply with full details in an hour or so of emailing them.
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Old 20th November 2012, 12:40   #234
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Default Re: Kizashi at a whopping discount of Rs.5 lakhs!! UPDATE: Now at 11.49 L, Details Pg

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Originally Posted by yosbert View Post
Umm... Actually two of those 'are' in the D1 (October 2012 : Indian Car Sales Figures) segment. Regardless, your point was that Indians with money stay away from cheap brands. And, at least for me, cars costing 12+ Lakhs is a lot of money.



Yes, what it lacks is a diesel heart.
12L is not something you call expensive cars at this age. Lets look at where Kizashi belonged: the ~20L range, where the GV, the Sonata and the Aria belonged. And Sonata did have a diesel heart, only the new one does not have it. the old one did not sell either.
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Old 20th November 2012, 12:46   #235
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Default Re: Kizashi at a whopping discount of Rs.5 lakhs!! UPDATE: Now at 11.49 L, Details Pg

Quote:
Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
180ps from a 2.4 without a turbo is definitely not lame. However 160ps from a 1.8 turbo is lame IMHO. You can easily do a lot more. Also on what basis do you say that it is more fuel efficient - a civic with 130ps from an NA 1.8 has an ARAI FE of 15.xx while the laura has an FE of 13.xx. Also FYI, the ARAI mileage for the kizashi is also in the same ballpark for the MT. So the 1.8 TSI is not very fuel efficient either.

Also the base merc produces 188ps from a 1.8L block and is also quicker than the laura tsi. As for unhappy owners, the 1.8 TSi is still not old enough to show gremlins yet. I had a friend who had spent almost 3L in 5 years of ownership of a 1.8 Octy vRS on simple maintenance. I believe our moderator Ajmat's experience was also similar. Things just kept failing all the time.

Quoting ACI from one of their recent issues " The Laura wins this test as it appeals both to the head and the heart. It is the cheapest of the lot and the most fuel-efficient too"

Source : http://www.skoda-auto.co.in/IND/mode...s/Review02.pdf

The 0-100 Figure for the Merc C200 : 8.40 Sec
Source : ACI http://www.autocarindia.com/Review/2...0-cgi-old.aspx

THe 0-100 figure for the Laura TSi : 8.56 sec
Source : See spec sheet of ACI comparison given above

Being just 1/10th of sec slower to the ton than a car that costs more than 2x on road does not make the Laura TSi "lame" IMO

THe Octy VRS is a very different car from the Laura TSI. The TSI engine is a very reliable one. Its been around since 2009 and if you search not just our forum but the internet in general and you will be hard pressed to find a dissatisfied owner. I myself have completed nearly 30,000 kms in my TSI and have not faced a single issue yet.

THe Kizashi is a good car no doubt but was priced wrong and our market did not see value for its asking price. The current corrections are basically to clear the existing stocks. Once stocks are cleared I am sure that one of the following two things will happen
1) THe discounts will be withdrawn and the car will be imported on order
2) MSIL will stop offering the car in India due to low demand, similar to what Honda is having to do with the Civic.

The Laura TSi is no great seller also . But it is the pick of the D1 petrol sedan segment however small it may be.
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Old 20th November 2012, 13:00   #236
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Default Re: Kizashi at a whopping discount of Rs.5 lakhs!! UPDATE: Now at 11.49 L, Details Pg

Quote:
Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
As for the accord - isn't it in a different size class with a far higher kerb weight? Its not really fair to compare it to a kizashi which is just a wee bit bigger than a civic but with a much larger engine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
12L is not something you call expensive cars at this age. Lets look at where Kizashi belonged: the ~20L range, where the GV, the Sonata and the Aria belonged.
So let's really discuss where kizashi belongs (I am reading the 2 opinions above, back to back). Does price decide where it belongs, or the space and comfort? Or is it all 3? And where exactly does "Sporty, fun to drive" aspect show up? Or has Suzuki just messed it? Is it a really powerful and sporty car that looks small and costs big?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Santoshbhat View Post
The Laura TSi is no great seller also . But it is the pick of the D1 petrol sedan segment however small it may be.
Yes, I agree.
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Old 20th November 2012, 14:08   #237
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Default Re: Kizashi at a whopping discount of Rs.5 lakhs!! UPDATE: Now at 11.49 L, Details Pg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santoshbhat View Post
Quoting ACI from one of their recent issues " The Laura wins this test as it appeals both to the head and the heart. It is the cheapest of the lot and the most fuel-efficient too"

Source : http://www.skoda-auto.co.in/IND/mode...s/Review02.pdf

The 0-100 Figure for the Merc C200 : 8.40 Sec
Source : ACI http://www.autocarindia.com/Review/2...0-cgi-old.aspx

THe 0-100 figure for the Laura TSi : 8.56 sec
Source : See spec sheet of ACI comparison given above

Being just 1/10th of sec slower to the ton than a car that costs more than 2x on road does not make the Laura TSi "lame" IMO
That article self contradicts itself. Earlier it states the following:

Quote:
ruising long distances.
What’s surprising is that this exciting engine
doesn’t give away much on the fuel efficiency
front. At 9.8kpl in the city and 14kpl on the
highway, it’s just a little less efficient than
the others
I leave it to you to judge the quality of their journalism. What do they mean when at one place they say the fuel efficiency is lower than the other cars in the group and at another place they say its the most fuel efficient. It baffles me for sure.

Quote:
THe Octy VRS is a very different car from the Laura TSI. The TSI engine is a very reliable one. Its been around since 2009 and if you search not just our forum but the internet in general and you will be hard pressed to find a dissatisfied owner. I myself have completed nearly 30,000 kms in my TSI and have not faced a single issue yet.

THe Kizashi is a good car no doubt but was priced wrong and our market did not see value for its asking price. The current corrections are basically to clear the existing stocks. Once stocks are cleared I am sure that one of the following two things will happen
1) THe discounts will be withdrawn and the car will be imported on order
2) MSIL will stop offering the car in India due to low demand, similar to what Honda is having to do with the Civic.

The Laura TSi is no great seller also . But it is the pick of the D1 petrol sedan segment however small it may be.
Okay so the TSI engine is more reliable than the rest - but what about the super expensive spares and the ridiculously bad service you get from skoda? There are more horror stories here on tbhp about skoda and vw than all other manufacturers combined. I'd personally stay away from the brand for simply this reason. Compare that to maruti service and their usual low cost of spares, I see a huge disparity here in the final TCO of the vehicle.

Also I do not deny the fact that it was priced wrong initially. However with the current discounts, it is a better car than the laura Tsi whether it is power, handling, ride, features, space, comfort, total cost of ownership, after sales service - you name it. Only place where the laura wins is the interior quality and fit/finish. Whether they decide to discontinue the car after they sell out their existing stock is maruti's prerogative.

Last edited by reignofchaos : 20th November 2012 at 14:09.
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Old 20th November 2012, 14:31   #238
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Default Re: Kizashi at a whopping discount of Rs.5 lakhs!! UPDATE: Now at 11.49 L, Details Pg

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Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
So let's really discuss where kizashi belongs (I am reading the 2 opinions above, back to back). Does price decide where it belongs, or the space and comfort? Or is it all 3? And where exactly does "Sporty, fun to drive" aspect show up? Or has Suzuki just messed it? Is it a really powerful and sporty car that looks small and costs big?
How you compare depends on what your point if reference is. In my case, the crux of my argument is that people who have money (similar to Kizashi's asking price) to splurge, would rather buy something with a better brand name. So here the point of reference is with the price.

Now, if you want to use a different point of reference, say the segment to which it falls into, yes, the Kizashi is bigger than the Civic, but smaller than the Accord. It is much closer to the Superb, rather.

But, either way, the argument is simple... the higher you go in the price ladder, brand value matters more. There maybe a few exceptions, but evidence is heavily in the latter's favour.
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Old 20th November 2012, 14:38   #239
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Default Re: Kizashi at a whopping discount of Rs.5 lakhs!! UPDATE: Now at 11.49 L, Details Pg

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Originally Posted by Santoshbhat View Post
The beauty of the TSI engines is that with the help of all the tech and gadgetry it is as fuel efficient (if not more) than the other 1.8 L engined petrol competitors in its class.
I am going to wait for the day when a car runs on water and that is when I will call it something.

What is this revolutionary Tsi techmology you keep reminding us about? Turbo, Tsi, Vtec, EcoBoost, Gasoline Direct Injection or Gdi are the many terms manufacturers use to label their technology. Gdi will be common soon. No technology can be called inferior to the other unless there is some direct comparison. I bet that 1.8l engine on your car will not give you more than 120 horse once you pull out the turbo charger. The effectiveness of a turbo charger has been proven in so many ways. A smaller engine can be used to develop the same power of a bigger naturally aspirated engine.

As for fuel efficiency, I have yet the see the result that a turbo offers on a petrol engine. Do we have any direct comparisons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santoshbhat View Post
THe Kizashi is a good car no doubt but was priced wrong and our market did not see value for its asking price.
I am repeating my lines again and again. So a Skoda Laura vRs, manufactured right here, according to you priced right? Really? 20lac is what it costs in Bangalore. Lets not even bring in the L&K edition which is just stupid pricing. A car Made in Japan car, shipped from Japan, with all government import duties and whatever else slapped on sells for 22lac on road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
In any case, WHY NO GDI???
So what if the car does not use Gdi. I bet Suzuki engineers went over the option of using Gdi and decided not to. We don't know why. It in no way means the engine technology is outdated. To my knowledge, Gdi is a different method of fuel delivery into the cylinder and nothing else. The piston still moves up and down inside the bore and that is the same with all cars.

I don't quite buy your explanation of how a naturally aspirated engine is lamer to drive beside a turbo petrol. A well designed NA engine can be as responsive as a turbo charged engine. Probably better as there is no turbo charger. I won't rule out turbo charged engines. They have their gains and are fun to drive once you get past turbo lag. Turbo lag is the most annoying part. To get past it, you down shift and that is the same thing I am going to do on a NA engine. The chances of turbo failure are there. The engine won't fail. In most cases, it is the turbo that packs up when driven to the limits for extended periods. Lets not bring in race cars here where everything is over engineered and built for sustained high rpm's. Unless you are in a BMW or something similar, I would go easy with anything that has a turbo charger.
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Old 20th November 2012, 14:44   #240
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Default Re: Kizashi at a whopping discount of Rs.5 lakhs!! UPDATE: Now at 11.49 L, Details Pg

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Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post

So what if the car does not use Gdi. I bet Suzuki engineers went over the option of using Gdi and decided not to. We don't know why. It in no way means the engine technology is outdated. To my knowledge, Gdi is a different method of fuel delivery into the cylinder and nothing else. The piston still moves up and down inside the bore and that is the same with all cars.
Please read about GDI and it's advantages, mate.
How will you know unless you read/learn.

BTW, in Subaru engines, pistons don't go up and down, they go back and forth :-)

Last edited by anandpadhye : 20th November 2012 at 14:46.
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