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Old 14th August 2012, 15:35   #16
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
mhawk was developed for Mahindra by AVL of austria it is not an in house engine.
True. But the Scorpio in full. mHawk was a later on introduction. Further AVL of Austria was involved in modification of many an Indian engines. Even lamby engine was modded by them for their polo.

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Old 14th August 2012, 15:39   #17
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

Well top bosses usually make such comments to chide the underlings and thus motivate them to perform we should not read too much in to it.

For the people who are debating if M&M did whole thing inhouse or not ; You should sometime read Anand Mahindra's own account of how Scorpio was created in shoestring budget of 1500 Crores and record time. ( This budget was shoe string compared to what it takes to develop a new platform elsewhere in the world)

M&M did not waste time in creating things from scratch they created a mock up design and some specifications and invited known vendors from world over to comeup with their own designs , even existing designs being supplied to others and selected them.

This was the reason that parts of Scorpio resembled so much with other vehicles at that time.

So in a way Scorpio was created outside in , You come up with a concept and shell and invite other to chip in and fill the blocks and control the budget.

I think similarly XUV 500 is created and they payed a lot of attention on the outside design elements.

On the other hand TML totally ignored aesthetics and styling and came up with Aria which looks like a blown up nano / Indica / Vista.

Last edited by amitk26 : 14th August 2012 at 15:47.
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Old 14th August 2012, 15:52   #18
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
@raj:

mhawk was developed for Mahindra by AVL of austria it is not an in house engine.
AVL has "helped" M&M to design the mHawk engine. For that matter, even the DICOR from TATA has been designed from them. But we cannot say that the whole engine was outsourced to AVL.
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Old 14th August 2012, 16:43   #19
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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AVL has "helped" M&M to design the mHawk engine. For that matter, even the DICOR from TATA has been designed from them. But we cannot say that the whole engine was outsourced to AVL.
True. IPRs in the Hawk engine are owned by Mahindra and similarly Tata owns the IPRs in DiCOR. AVL rendered assistance for which it was paid its fees.
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Old 14th August 2012, 19:44   #20
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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I have certain degree of sadness and shame that we have let that happen.
I have the greatest respect for Mr. Tata, in particular his philosophy, and he is amongst my favourite business leaders. However, I disagree with making this statement in public. Wouldn't it have a tremendously demotivating effect on each Tata Motor's employee? Was this line in particular necessary?

Sales aside, the Tata Motor's team has done an admirable job with the Nano's brilliance, Aria (pricing aside) and Manza. It shows that they can design some truly good cars. Mahindra's only achievement in terms of product prowess is the XUV500 (no small one at that!) for the last 10 years. Thus, I don't see the reason for shame? It's not like Mahindra's volumes are 5 times higher than that of Tata either.

For all those complaining about Tata's niggles, Mahindra has them too (refer to the many XUV500 issues). I'm not defending Tata in any way....my Indigo's horrendous reliability - rather, the lack of it - has blocked Tata's entry into my garage for the next decade. But Tata engineers have also come a long way in terms of product development skills. So, why the shame vis a vis Mahindra?

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Old 14th August 2012, 20:16   #21
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

Do I sense a feeling of complacency setting in at Tata? With JLR doing well, contributing to improved business performance of Tata Motors, they seem to think they need not nurture Tata products and customers.

I read Ratan Tata's statement as setting the context for Cyrus Mistry. Now, Mr. Mistry has his task cut out - how to make Tata the desired and aspired brand?
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Old 14th August 2012, 20:19   #22
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

No doubt about the ability of Tata to make good cars. They have come ahead by leaps and bounds.
But unfortunately their market positioning, branding & customer experience leave a lot to be desired. pun unintended.

It is almost as if they are selling modern cars but with strategies that would have worked a few years ago. I am no expert but they dont seem agile or proactive enough to dictate terms in the market.

Let us see if Tata Motors employees take this as a kick where the sun dont shine and work smart to get back their position. Its very challenging to change what is embedded in the DNA of such a big organisation.
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Old 14th August 2012, 21:17   #23
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

People familiar with TBEM (Tata Business Excellence Model) would know that Tata companies are required to 'earn' the right to use the name 'Tata' or be seen as a part of the Tata group - by achieving prescribed milestones of excellence.

Tata Motors and Tata Steel are two companies which are closest to the heart for Mr. Ratan Tata.

Scoring high on the TBEM scale and earning the right to use the name Tata (which is meant to signify quality, customer service and excellence) is one thing and actually having the same impression on ground is quite another.

How does the average person look at Tata Motors today? Most likely you will hear words like average, mediocre, boring-designs, quality-concerns.

Tata Motors is hugely successful by most financial standards - top-line, bottom-line, market-share etc, but most likely does no justice to the grand vision that Mr R Tata had in mind. The feeling of sadness and shame is most likely a realization of the failure of that vision. IMO its nothing to do with M&M. Its the gap between what Tata Motors could have been and what it is today, that is saddening.

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Old 14th August 2012, 21:35   #24
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
However, I disagree with making this statement in public. Wouldn't it have a tremendously demotivating effect on each Tata Motor's employee? Was this line in particular necessary?
From the opening post, I understood that he said this at a meeting with his shareholders. The source has not been mentioned by the O.P (which I think is vital in this forum). Would be glad to know where he got it from and the remaining part of Tata's speech too.
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Old 14th August 2012, 22:08   #25
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
And I don't see the situation changing all too soon either. Mahindra has few smashing products in the pipeline - Mini-Xylo and even a new Scorpio is rumoured to be under development. Morever - new entrants like Renault Duster and Ford Ecosport will soon change the game in the entry level SUV segment.

TATA has the new Safari Storme, which already feels weak and tired against the competition IMO.
Yes , rigthly said and you forget to mention the new look Verito which after striving in the market for so long with Mahindra brand name only to its rescue, i think even a monthly volume somewhere of 2000 units will again make Mahindra smile .
In the mean time its TATA itself to blame for as they completely overlooked their core business of UVs and went behind cars where compitetion is too intense and left Mahindra a wide gap to rake up their numbers .
I think after withdraw of Qualis from the market both Tata and Mahindra had equal chance to capture the market , Mahindra took it and Tata kept looking , still is .

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Old 14th August 2012, 23:51   #26
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I have the greatest respect for Mr. Tata, in particular his philosophy, and he is amongst my favourite business leaders. However, I disagree with making this statement in public. Wouldn't it have a tremendously demotivating effect on each Tata Motor's employee? Was this line in particular necessary?
It takes a man to admit that he is not perfect. It takes a leader to admit that there are shortcomings in the leadership he provides. Ratan Tata is a "man" in my book if he has the guts to accept that there are shortcoming in the company he leads.

Having had the fortune of listening to R Gopalakrishnan, Director, Tata Sons speak to us, I feel that TATAs as a company inculcate a sense of having the guts to think differently, and this can only come if they have the ability to introspect and accept the shortcomings that they have, and Mr Tata's admission is a reflection of the same.

As far as the effect on the employees, at times it takes a certain amount of fire in the belly to get the drive to do better than what one has been doing till now, and, to be reminded that a rival is doing better than you might just be that fire.
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Old 15th August 2012, 00:13   #27
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

The need of the hour is to slash the prices of Aria and jolt the S(M)UV market with wafer thin margins to gain people's confidence with their product.

* release a MANZA CS.
*launch a sports version of Vista as showcased in Auto expo.
*Launch a proper entry level sedan which isint boring to look at and scrap indigo CS which more than a decade old Indica platform.
* Launch the Storme with current safari pirces to re-gain the shares in S(M)UV segment.
*Last but not the least launch the much fan fared NaNo Diesel with power steering, open able hatch door, better finish and disc brakes up front .
* Launch a new hatch back to fill the gap between the Nano and Vista and keep the Indicab for our taxi operators.

Tune down the 2.2 Dicor engine into a 1.5l engine and plonk it in a entirely new C+ segment sedan.

All the above points are not far fetched to attain.

Cheers,
Chaos
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Old 15th August 2012, 09:32   #28
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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The need of the hour is to slash the prices of Aria and jolt the S(M)UV market with wafer thin margins to gain people's confidence with their product.
Aria is a prime example of Tata's lack of strategy. They make an excellent van/muv and then price it over the segment leader Innova. The vehicle flops in the market (sorry fans, it is a flop either way you look at it) and Tata does nothing, absolutely nothing except put out ads offer 1.5 to 2 lakhs permanent discounts. They should have revamped/repriced the model range.

Sumo Grande fails and what do we have, different chrome/drop the Sumo name and Grande Mark II. How pathetic is this??

Two things they need to do immediately is reprice the Aria and bring out the Storme with excellent quality at a great price.

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Old 15th August 2012, 10:43   #29
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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I see your ironical comments, have a hearty laugh and I raise you this:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...pdate-120.html

I am not even going to start on my brother's travails with the 06 indica Xeta or my BIL's endless niggles with the 11 Manza (but the car otherwise runs like a dream).

Enough speeches from Mr Tata - the rubber has to hit the road and the quality has to go up further. They should thank their lucky stars for Fiat to have dug itself into the hole it did - else they wouldn't have gotten the Fiat engines/gearboxes that help the Manza/Vista sell today!!
Which part of my post spoke of past quality phamilyman? Unless my english is really bad or you didnt really read on what I wrote, bringing examples from the past doesnt make any sense. Enough said. You can go on on bad quality of Tata motors or whoever you feel like, hope you donot buy any more lemons
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Old 15th August 2012, 11:58   #30
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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Which part of my post spoke of past quality phamilyman? Unless my english is really bad or you didnt really read on what I wrote, bringing examples from the past doesnt make any sense. Enough said. You can go on on bad quality of Tata motors or whoever you feel like, hope you donot buy any more lemons
Uh, I mentioned the (april) 11 Manza as well, right? Help me understand how it is an example "from the past". I have not been under a rock that a sea change in Tata quality has happened since April 2011 and I am not aware of it.

I don't intend to buy Tata or any Tata serviced cars - I have not seen a single data point to the contrary in the last 4 years!

I don't hate Tata - in fact, I almost ended up working for Tata after an interview with Noel Tata (I am still a fan of Noel/Ratan Tata). The QC on TML products IS deficient - this is a fact acknowledged by industry folks as well as ex-TML folks themselves.
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