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Old 15th August 2012, 12:46   #31
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

TML had started to become a loose canon, from the point of view of Tata sons. It can't be denied that TML, TCS & Tata Steel are the three top businesses for Tata. Out of the 3, TML is crucially different from the other 2 in the sense that it is consumer oriented and not B2B as the others. Also the network of external relationships that has to exist for TML is many scales more complex than for the other two. These two major differentiators of business, have led to an organizational condition where, so to speak and in context to the thread, RT's voice is much diminished as compared to the other businesses. His outpouring could/should be viewed in the context of this frustration. One of the ways for Tata to alter this balance has been to bring an outsider to lead TML, and his newest effort is to bring in Karl Slym.
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Old 15th August 2012, 19:49   #32
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

I consider Ratan Tata as a true gentleman in the Indian Business world but I'm not sure whether it was good for him to "accept defeat".

I just can't understand how the company owning Land Rover is loosing UV battle against M&M!
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Old 15th August 2012, 20:09   #33
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Enough speeches from Mr Tata - the rubber has to hit the road and the quality has to go up further. They should thank their lucky stars for Fiat to have dug itself into the hole it did - else they wouldn't have gotten the Fiat engines/gearboxes that help the Manza/Vista sell today!!
The quote in bold appears harsh. Give the man a break. Here is a true gentleman being honest. And here you go blasting him. By your own admission, you will never buy a Tata car. That is ok. It is your wish. But why make fun him? I have never owned a Tata car and looking at their current product line-up, they have nothing for me but I do not ridicule them. On the contrary I have high regard for Ratan Tata.
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Old 15th August 2012, 20:15   #34
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
The quote in bold appears harsh. Give the man a break. Here is a true gentleman being honest. And here you go blasting him. By your own admission, you will never buy a Tata car. That is ok. It is your wish. But why make fun him? I have never owned a Tata car and looking at their current product line-up, they have nothing for me but I do not ridicule them. On the contrary I have high regard for Ratan Tata.
It is the same thing as MMS man. Respect does not mean one does not clearly point out lack of delivery. (not making fun of anyone)

Great speeches need to be followed up by action. He's a great person but the quality is not yet there. Tata's cars are nowhere as great as his individual reputation.
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Old 15th August 2012, 20:29   #35
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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Originally Posted by DukeNukem View Post

Mr. Tata stated (I have) great respect for what Mahindra & Mahindra has been able to do. I have certain degree of sadness and shame that we have let that happen. I think we have a great deal of introspection to do as to why, Mahindra should be ahead of us, than us catching up.
I am not sure if the above is quoted verbatim, I found this on rediff:
Mahindra beating us is a shame, says Ratan Tata - Rediff.com Business

Quote:
We should do a great deal of introspection as to why M&M is ahead of us. I have great respect for that company. But we should look at this in sadness that we let that happen. In the true spirit of the company, we should get back to that position," Tata told shareholders
As you can see:

Quote:
(I have) great respect for what Mahindra & Mahindra has been able to do. I have certain degree of sadness and shame that we have let that happen
and

Quote:
We should do a great deal of introspection as to why M&M is ahead of us. I have great respect for that company. But we should look at this in sadness that we let that happen.
The two quotes above may have completely different meaning, considering the issue in this question.

The former deliberately praises Mahindra for their feat and rebukes the tata team for not being able to match up.

The latter , on the respect for Mahindra, is only an expression for courtesy sake.

The quote in rediff appears a lot more sober than the one quoted here and it only asks the employees to introspect and deliver better.
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Old 15th August 2012, 22:59   #36
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

The first step to solving a problem is acknowledging it. As we have seen from the recent disintegration of Nokia, RIM this is easier said than done, it may be obvious to everyone else but internally within the company there is a sort of 'alternate reality zone' where everything resolves itself.

As we have seen it doesn't quite work out like that and the end result is disaster. Folks don't like introspection. Ratan Tata is giving a much needed wake up call and this just reflects his directness and maturity.

In the auto industry with long development cycles getting left behind can be an expensive mistake, and TML is increasingly looking directionless with no pipeline of products, extreme lethargy with current products and this cannot be good for one of the country's largest car maker.

The Prima would have been a good car to have in their lineup now, why was it killed without an alternative? The Safari could have been the XUV, the Duster and more, multiple products on the platform but we have seen zero evolution of this early starter and a fantastic platform.

What we have instead of 'repackaging' in the Storme which raises zero excitement and a botched up launch with the Aria. Same with the Indica and other models, they have just not evolved fast enough and there are no new launches either. There is too much stagnation.
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Old 16th August 2012, 07:54   #37
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

One way of looking at this is a pretty-strong back-handed compliment to MM. If someone is ashamed of losing specifically to a competitor its not a compliment to the competitor.

Its also a veiled warning to TML execs to put together their act here.

In any case, TML has always been good at concepts and bad at execution. Almost always I'd say. Hoping the Storme changes that! That is if they ever launch it. lol.
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Old 16th August 2012, 10:13   #38
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Sales aside, the Tata Motor's team has done an admirable job with the Nano's brilliance, Aria (pricing aside) and Manza.
Dont kinda agree

Nano
  • The concept is brilliant but the product is NOT. Its not to do with "cheapest car mentality".
  • I know of some many C and D segment owners who had booked a Nano or 2 during the initial lottery system. But then after driving one and looking at what the car has to offer, most passed the offer.
Aria - Quality-wise nice but
  • It cannot sit 7 passengers like the Innova - design issue, space optimization issue.
  • It weighs more nearly 500 kgs more than the Innova. People dont need to sit in a iron vault to feel safe. More kerb weight impacts performance as well as FE.
  • When you want to make a mark - you cannot price yourself premium than the market leader the same way Figo would not succeed if it priced too close to the Swift.
  • A G wagon can afford not to be beautiful but a 15 lakh Tata better be, but Aria is not. Many women can think of and do drive an Innova but the Aria is outrightly rejected.
  • Now with the XUV in the market, Aria will have an even hard time.
  • Even with price cuts, the Aria will not attract volumes cause the major population does not simply like the Aria. One likes to many have a ride but not really drive one as a daily ride.

Manza - reasonable success with national engine and big space USP (though this also turns off some customers due to the too bulk look)

Indica / Indigo - reasonable success with VFM strategy and no competition in the cheap diesel market.

Safari - Has Tata forgotten the words "Too old" and "needs innovation, freshness". Even if Mahindra is dragging the Scorpio for long, Safari cannot afford to as the Scorpio is still selling hot.

With so many products and years into the automotive world - Tata still does not have ONE single POLE position in any segment. It does not seem to gain one in the near future either.

Last edited by dipen : 16th August 2012 at 10:17.
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Old 16th August 2012, 21:07   #39
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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Dont kinda agree

Many women can think of and do drive an Innova but the Aria is outrightly rejected.
  • .
I agree with almost everything you said about Tata cars. But women driving Innova? Innova screams airport taxi from every angle. It is the ugliest people mover there is. Even owners driving it appear like drivers. XUV 500 looks lightyears ahead of innova. I don't think any self-respecting woman would touch this taxi with even a barge pole.

As for Tata, yes they need to pull their act together. All their cars appear to be at the end of their tether. They need to come with ground-up new cars and for heavens sake Tata stop naming them Indica this, Sumo that, Safari something. Because all these brands have run out of steam. Only new cars with new names can resurrect this brand.
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Old 16th August 2012, 22:24   #40
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

Mr. Ratan Tata is a true gentle man, but TATA group has so much spread and large that changing people's mind set is not an overnight job. I think most of the TATA company's procedures can be compared to Govt style of working. Not fast and adaptive to new environments. I think Mahindras as more flexible on this.. Lets wait and see whats holds for TATA. I felt Nano to be too little equipped, four people sitting inside, you should be working out hard in gyms to turn the steering.
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Old 17th August 2012, 02:52   #41
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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[/list]I agree with almost everything you said about Tata cars. But women driving Innova? Innova screams airport taxi from every angle. It is the ugliest people mover there is. Even owners driving it appear like drivers. XUV 500 looks lightyears ahead of innova. I don't think any self-respecting woman would touch this taxi with even a barge pole.
Well - my wife drives the Innova cause the kids prefer it to her car. My friends wife drives their innova on a regular basis and I know of others who do that too. Let me assure you that all of these are pretty smart, independent and self respecting women.

Off topic - I think we are confusing choice here with self respect here. I am sure neither the economic status of a person or their personal choice of vehicle should be linked with a person's self respect!
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Old 17th August 2012, 05:17   #42
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
[/list]I agree with almost everything you said about Tata cars. But women driving Innova? Innova screams airport taxi from every angle. It is the ugliest people mover there is. Even owners driving it appear like drivers. XUV 500 looks lightyears ahead of innova. I don't think any self-respecting woman would touch this taxi with even a barge pole.
Well..I guess you have to research a bit more before making such very strong statements. Innova is a very popular vehicle among US returnees, especially women who were using some variant of the minivan there. I know many women who drive their kids to school in Innovas. I have an Innova and my wife does not have any problem driving it, except that it is not very convenient for city driving, owing to its large size.
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Old 17th August 2012, 08:14   #43
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I am great fan of Ratan Tata's ethics, decency, and his vision in taking Tata companies global. I had the fortune of dealing with him when I was a very junior Tata group employee early in my career, and his willingness to listen to the views of everyone in the room was truly educative.

But the root cause of the problems in Tata Motors passenger car business lies with him. Tata Motors has made a number of errors in its domestic business:

1. Focussing a massive quantum of engineering resources on developing the Nano was a grave error of judgment. In pursuing this vision, Tata Motors ignored the experience in every other market in the world - that most entry level car purchasers prefer a second hand car to a stripped down new one. The Nano's sales are under 100,000 per annum, compared to the 100,000 per month that it needed to be viable
2. Foolishly chasing the dream of reindustrialising Bengal, instead of realising that any people who vote communists into power for 30 years in a row do not want to be productive - they would rather live in a society where everyone is a beggar than to see someone else getting ahead of them. Any chance for the Nano to succeed was lost when the Singur agitation delayed its production and deprived it of the momentum it had at launch.

Both of these errors arose from his innate goodness - putting the needs of development ahead of hard headed business calculation.

I fear that there is one more error that the company has made and is still making - viz. failing to utilise the scale advantages it has in the trucks business to become globally competitive there. If at some stage the current government is voted out and India actually invests in quality highways, Volvo, Mercedes and Dongfeng are going to have Tata Motors' core truck business for lunch.

Last edited by Hayek : 17th August 2012 at 08:18.
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Old 17th August 2012, 10:17   #44
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Default Re: Ratan Tata praises rival Mahindra, rues Tata Motors' sales

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I fear that there is one more error that the company has made and is still making - viz. failing to utilise the scale advantages it has in the trucks business to become globally competitive there. If at some stage the current government is voted out and India actually invests in quality highways, Volvo, Mercedes and Dongfeng are going to have Tata Motors' core truck business for lunch.
Couldn't help commenting... Have you seen the Prima? Not the Indian ones but the International variants. Its available with engines upto 1200hp. That IMHO atleast is adequate to compete against 80% of the Volvo and Merceded range. And Dongfeng? Sorry .. But Prima is definitely there with Dongfeng.

These variants are not getting launched here since there is no market. In CV there are definitely trying hard considering that in their domestic market 160hp truck 16 ton is considered great.

Last edited by Trapezio : 17th August 2012 at 10:26.
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Old 17th August 2012, 11:21   #45
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Have seen the Prima. But I don't think they have put all their resources behind it, and they still lack scale in quality trucks.
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