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Old 7th February 2013, 17:14   #16
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Default Re: Toyota to launch 1500cc Liva

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Originally Posted by MetalBuff View Post
Hopefully, these changes should bring in the volumes for Toyota. Clearly, relying on T-Fort and the limping warhorse (Read: Corolla) has not helped and will not help in the future as well.

As far as the customer feedback goes, it was skewed mainly when it came to interior quality and NVH levels. The exteriors, though not that elegant, can still be lived with (We are discussing exteriors of a segment which is dominated by the quirky dZire . Fellow mates owning the dZire, no offence please)

Time for Toyota to gear up, bring in well deserved makeovers for these and head to a better place where they could have reached, had the pricing and quality for these models been topnotch since Day-1

-Shivang Gandotra
If Toyota don't want to go down the Taxi route permanently, it was imperative that they start making changes. At least they're giving it a shot from the looks of it!
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Old 7th February 2013, 17:27   #17
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Default Re: Toyota to launch 1500cc Liva

Toyota please get the Speedo where it belongs, behind the steering.
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Old 7th February 2013, 17:30   #18
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Default Re: Toyota to launch 1500cc Liva

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If Toyota don't want to go down the Taxi route permanently, it was imperative that they start making changes. At least they're giving it a shot from the looks of it!
If you ask me, the grey interiors that the Etios duo were launched with, were not all suitable even for the taxi market . I mean, atleast look at what the competition has to offer. Would a buyer pay so much only for the brand? Don't think so!

They survived solely, as they had the Toyota badging slapped on their foreheads.


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Toyota please get the Speedo where it belongs, behind the steering.
Yes! We need to be explicit with our demands, this time around. Hope, they are reading this!

Please, do place the speedometer behind the steering.

-Shivang Gandotra

Last edited by MetalBuff : 7th February 2013 at 17:47.
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Old 7th February 2013, 18:19   #19
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Default Re: Toyota to launch 1500cc Liva

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The new Liva model will also use better quality plastic to give a premium feel to the dashboard, switchgear and door panels and use a new colour scheme to allay criticism that the Etios platform compromised on quality from the Toyota stable.
Interesting move from Toyota!

The wordings of this report suggest that only the plastic quality and color scheme will be improved.IMHO, that won't suffice and an entire redesign of the dashboard needs to be done, INCLUDING changing the speedo placement. Even the Eon's dash looks much better than the current design.
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Old 7th February 2013, 20:18   #20
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Default Re: *Rumour* Toyota Liva 1.5L hot hatch coming!

This is Toyota doing what it does best, stick to the conservative lines all their lives. Hot version? Really? 1.5 litres and all they manage to extract out of it is 90bhp. VW is coming up with the Polo GTi with the superbly engineered 1.2L TSi engine that puts out 105bhp mated to a 7-speed DSG, Fiat is rumoured to bring in the 'Abarth' badge to India and also the possibility of a localised Punto Abarth. Toyota is bringing out a knife to a gunfight. Firstly the market that these cars cater to are a niche, exclusive to petrol heads and enthusiasts. And I don't see any takers for a hot version of a car that was specifically developed for the 'emerging/developing markets' as opposed to the European chic hatchback counterparts.

Maybe it's pricing could change the ball-game and proper market positioning of this car could tip the scales in Toyota's favour. But positioning and pricing it as a hot hatch, a shade under 8-9L OTR would be foolishness.

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Old 8th February 2013, 13:43   #21
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Default Re: *Rumour* Toyota Liva 1.5L hot hatch coming!

maybe it will be some limited edition, although i suspect how many would be willing to buy it given that much better hatches are available in the price range it will ask for.

the USP of the Liva is cheap hatch. With threadbare features and pretty weak looks and build, the only thing going for liva is space and the T badge assurance. no one buys the Liva for performance. Why would Toyota, which otherwise plays a conservative game, try to risk its USP?
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Old 8th February 2013, 14:46   #22
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Default Re: *Rumour* Toyota Liva 1.5L hot hatch coming!

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Originally Posted by amitayu View Post
maybe it will be some limited edition, although i suspect how many would be willing to buy it given that much better hatches are available in the price range it will ask for.

the USP of the Liva is cheap hatch. With threadbare features and pretty weak looks and build, the only thing going for liva is space and the T badge assurance. no one buys the Liva for performance. Why would Toyota, which otherwise plays a conservative game, try to risk its USP?
The existing Liva is not particularly cheap to begin with (just its execution is cheap). The better specced Swift ZXI can be had for within ~10k extra over the Liva V which has far lesser kit on offer. And I am not even talking about the Liva VX (top end) here.

The USP for Liva is Space and *Toyota*.

Coming to topic, A 90 HP Hot Hatch? So the existing Swift P is already 96.6% Hot Hatch, why should we buy a more expensive Liva then?

Come on people!! 90 HP is not Hot Hatch territory. Its not even a Warm hatch! For it to be termed a Hot Hatch, it should have 0-100 timings bordering cars from at least 2 segments up, not their immediate next segment. Thats what makes it hotter than its sedan-sibling-using-the-same-platform.

Dear Toyota India,

You people don't have a single hot hatch in the hottest hot hatch market in the world (EU), stop trying to make a fool of yourself here. Leave the 'Making a warm/hot hatch' bit to the folks who are actually good at it (Ford, VW, Suzuki, Abarth, Mugen). If you really need to improve sales, you need to get your basics right.

If you don't know them already, here is a refresher:

1. The 88bhp D4D needs to come in the Etios engine bay.
2. Corolla needs.. naa Deserves a more powerful Diesel at its current price point. 88bhp in a D1 segment car is Disgraceful. Please give it the 126bhp 2.0 D4D that it gets outside India (In New Zealand?).
3. Address the NVH and interiors of the Etios and Liva. Even my bike has less wind noise than the Liva.
4. Even Tata has learnt from its mistake with the D90. The speedo needs to be where it needs to be.
5. Adding side skirts and stickers to a 68 bhp hatchback doesn't suddenly make it *sporty*. Adding additional horsepower does. If done while still staying within govt. defined small car limitations, even better (i.e., use the 88bhp 1.4 D4D).
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Old 8th February 2013, 14:49   #23
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Default Re: *Rumour* Toyota Liva 1.5L hot hatch coming!

Not a sensible move.

When we have Polo's 1.2L turbo / Polo Cross in the market with great driving dynamics and an undoubtedly strong built quality, why would Toyota plonk its Etios motor in a Liva and start calling it a *hot hatch*. VW had withdrawn its Polo 1.6 which had all the capabilities of being a hot hatch - why - because it wasn't selling. When the world over auto makers are moving to lower, more efficient turbo charged engine swapping engines doesnt cut the cake.

For starters apart from the heart, the looks need to sport a *hot* design else the cookie appears half baked.
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Old 8th February 2013, 15:03   #24
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Default Re: *Rumour* Toyota Liva 1.5L hot hatch coming!

If you can ignore the flaws of this car such as tin can build quality, and real low rent plastics which is quite a notch lower than even TATA it really does make a case for itself. Having driven the Etios with this engine, it should be a even more fun in a lighter Liva. The engines great though not exactly a high revving unit, the car handles really well, steers well and has decent brakes. Its what I would call a good to drive car. What goes completely against it is the stupid pricingby Toyota. I absolutely love the TRD edition of the Liva. This is not hot hatch in any sense of it if you were to pitch it with International hot hatches but if it can do a quick 0-100 in a shade over 10seconds, I would call it a hot hatch.

Last edited by sandeepmohan : 8th February 2013 at 15:06.
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Old 8th February 2013, 19:11   #25
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Default Re: *Rumour* Toyota Liva 1.5L hot hatch coming!

The Etios sedan and hatch were built to cost cars. Cost cutting is evident in those. Expect the price of this Live to be substantially higher if they plan to improve interiors along with a few extra horses. It may even go to a premium sedan price. Will people really want to spend that much extra for a car most associate with low cost production? Overall the current 'Q' class siblings are way behind the benchmark (interior wise) compared to the bigger Toyotas. And yes I agree with the person who said put the speedo back where it belongs.

Cheers!
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Old 8th February 2013, 19:27   #26
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Default Re: *Rumour* Toyota Liva 1.5L hot hatch coming!

If they are willing to put a bigger turbo and tune it to at least 150 bhp, it does not really go into hot hatch territory. 10+ seconds 0-100 times is not fast by any criteria. Sub 9 at the least if not sub 8. That is fast
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Old 8th February 2013, 20:00   #27
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Default Re: *Rumour* Toyota Liva 1.5L hot hatch coming!

First things first, a Tachometer is a must. Then as suggested, better interiors, speedos behind steering(even Vista's got that now), Rubber beading around doors(better sound insulation), fabric inserts on doors. Also better seat cushioning & adjustable head restraints.

Lest I forget, a 40:60 folding rear seats. Come-on wake up Toyota...
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Old 9th February 2013, 00:12   #28
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Default Re: *Rumour* Toyota Liva 1.5L hot hatch coming!

Other than entry level Liva models in Petrol and Diesel, there is a tachometer in V and Vx. What exactly is wrong with speedo meter in the middle ? In fact I find it is much easier to see the MID compared to the other cars which have Speedometer in the usual place. The car is built cheap no doubt, but it is a fairly nice car to drive in the 5.5L-6.5L range.

Also let's get some fact on the way towards sound insulation complain. Liva has around 28dB of sound insulation with engine off, this is the sound reduction of the doors, windows and other sealants. When the engine is on, the sound reduction is 16 dB, so the engine noise + leakage from the engine well is around 12dB. I haven't measured other cars, but I have done the same measurement on Swift. The numbers are pretty similar other than Swift engine well has better isolation by 2dB. Rubber beading on the door adds 3dB sound insulation in Liva.
Liva V and Vx comes with fabric door inserts, if that matters. Last I looked one could not fold rear seat in Honda City but I hardly see a wake-up call for Honda !!

Regarding the engine, there is a little thing called weight (mass) that matters apart from just raw engine power. Some one has to move the tin can and heavier the tin can more power is needed. Now if we compare the cars in that segment we have as per Bhp/tonne
Liva : 88
Swift: 86
i20: 74
Figo: 69
Polo: 74
i10: 92

in terms of Torque, Nm/Tonne we have
Liva : 117
Swift: 114
i20: 105
Figo: 98
Polo: 108
i10: 130

So, Liva does not really disgrace itself and the addition of the Etios can make it better. Is it really hot hatch ? I don't think so.

Last edited by acurafan : 9th February 2013 at 00:24.
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Old 9th February 2013, 01:07   #29
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Default Re: *Rumour* Toyota Liva 1.5L hot hatch coming!

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Originally Posted by n:CorE View Post
Hot version? Really? 1.5 litres and all they manage to extract out of it is 90bhp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by antz.bin View Post
Coming to topic, A 90 HP Hot Hatch? So the existing Swift P is already 96.6% Hot Hatch, why should we buy a more expensive Liva then?
Power output figures are misleading, those who have driven a 90-something bhp Ikon/Baleno versus say a 100bhp Accent viva can speak about it. Another example could be 75 bhp swift versus a 90bhp Punto/Vista. The final outcome depends on a number of factors from gearing to torque curve.



Quote:
Originally Posted by n:CorE View Post
Toyota is bringing out a knife to a gunfight. Firstly the market that these cars cater to are a niche, exclusive to petrol heads and enthusiasts. And I don't see any takers for a hot version of a car that was specifically developed for the 'emerging/developing markets' as opposed to the European chic hatchback counterparts.
Before we say things like bringing knife to a gunfight, lets evaluate the knife against the so called guns.


The Etios Petrol is actually quite a fun car to drive. Its got a responsive hydraulic steering, handling being neat too. Now regarding the performance, here's the 0-100 timing of a few cars (taken from Autocar figures)

Fiat Linea T-JET - 11.05
Ford Fiesta/Classic - 11.66
Polo 1.6 - 11.62
Etios - 11.38 (Heck that's Baleno category)

(Somebody said Swift P, that takes 14.24 and the Swift D 13.68 in other words an eternity in comparison to lower than 11.38)

Infact driving the Etios comes close to my Ikon 1.6 Nxt. So one can surely set his/her expectation accordingly about what to expect from the hatch version of the same car. The TRD Packs are also quite quite hot. The Gunmetal alloy, the skirting, spoilers all look quite cool.

Now can someone dig out the performance figures of India's favourite hot hatch so far, namely the Palio 1.6 GTX/S10?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitayu View Post
no one buys the Liva for performance.
Not Now, but, one can definitely say that the Etios can be bought for performance, same will be true with Liva when it gets powered by the right engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antz.bin View Post
For it to be termed a Hot Hatch, it should have 0-100 timings bordering cars from at least 2 segments up, not their immediate next segment. Thats what makes it hotter than its sedan-sibling-using-the-same-platform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pganapathy View Post
If they are willing to put a bigger turbo and tune it to at least 150 bhp, it does not really go into hot hatch territory. 10+ seconds 0-100 times is not fast by any criteria. Sub 9 at the least if not sub 8. That is fast
Absolutely perfect! But what's the fastest hatch in the country today below say 7-8 lakhs price-point. How does its steering behave?

Last edited by 1100D : 9th February 2013 at 01:29.
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Old 9th February 2013, 14:05   #30
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Default Re: *Rumour* Toyota Liva 1.5L hot hatch coming!

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Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
Power output figures are misleading, those who have driven a 90-something bhp Ikon/Baleno versus say a 100bhp Accent viva can speak about it. Another example could be 75 bhp swift versus a 90bhp Punto/Vista. The final outcome depends on a number of factors from gearing to torque curve.





Before we say things like bringing knife to a gunfight, lets evaluate the knife against the so called guns.


The Etios Petrol is actually quite a fun car to drive. Its got a responsive hydraulic steering, handling being neat too. Now regarding the performance, here's the 0-100 timing of a few cars (taken from Autocar figures)

Fiat Linea T-JET - 11.05
Ford Fiesta/Classic - 11.66
Polo 1.6 - 11.62
Etios - 11.38 (Heck that's Baleno category)

(Somebody said Swift P, that takes 14.24 and the Swift D 13.68 in other words an eternity in comparison to lower than 11.38)
I never said the car wouldn't be fun to drive. I have driven the Etios (P), and yes the engine is exciting, the steering is a delight and performance figures are highly impressive, but at what cost? I mean if you put a 90bhp (especially that 1.5, for which i have immense respect in terms of drivability) motor in a tin can, it will definitely go like stink. That's the whole reason why I said this needs to be priced and positioned well for it to make any sense. The 'hot' and upcoming rivals manage to be safe, well-equipped, better quality and superbly engineered products (considering the Polo 1.2TSi & the Punto Abarth). The Liva 90bhp would just do fast unless the changes they bring about to the rest of the car are really a lot. I don't see any sense in pricing this a shade under 8-9Lakhs OTR.

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