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Old 25th September 2012, 09:34   #61
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Default re: Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10

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Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
bad move if its a 4 speed. It would reduce my interest in buying one to near zero
Why? I do not think the 1.2 will really support a 5-speed. If they came with a 1.5 and a 5-speed / paddles and the rest the price will be in the City territory. More charges of Honda being over priced. As a V seems to be there it is a big bonus.

Also, with a CVT having more or less ratios is more an issue of programming. If the rubber banding is taken care of then it is fine.

Maybe this is the first time that a Honda is generating so much talk prior the the launch!

Last edited by sgiitk : 25th September 2012 at 09:36.
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Old 25th September 2012, 10:02   #62
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Default re: Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Why? I do not think the 1.2 will really support a 5-speed. If they came with a 1.5 and a 5-speed / paddles and the rest the price will be in the City territory. More charges of Honda being over priced. As a V seems to be there it is a big bonus.!
In Thailand the Brio comes with a 5 speed CVT and 1.2L so why do you say that it won't support it?
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Old 25th September 2012, 10:16   #63
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Default re: Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10

OT a little, but a little birdie told me that the Honda Brio Sedan launch with diesel motor is confirmed!

Googled up and found this. Almost like Honda was listening to what I've been quietly thinking since 2 days.

The 4 speed AT maybe a let-down but IMO, the best VFM option especially for aging drivers who have a need to drive OR a new driver who would simply prefer the AT for convenience. As someone mentioned, a 5 speed AT may send the price into the Vento league.
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Old 25th September 2012, 10:29   #64
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Default re: Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Why? I do not think the 1.2 will really support a 5-speed.
Do you mean technically or economically?

If you mean technically, it would not be correct. Small low torque engines actually benefit from a greater number of ratios because that allows the engine to stay closer to its torque peak more of the time because the ratios are not spaced far apart from each other, something that larger torquier engines can more easily cope with.

More ratios mean that the car can have an ideal start off ratio (first), an ideal cruising ratio (top), and the gap between them covered with evenly, without large gaps that cause the engine to fall off meat of the torque curve when shifting up. A 4 speed auto, compared to a 5 speed auto will feel like it is either having to rev the engine unnecessarily high because the next higher ratio is too tall for the vehicle speed, or that its revving too low with sluggish inadequate response from the engine because the next lower gear is too short for the speed.

More ratios mean a better match between vehicle speed and engine torque curve.

The limit to how many more ratios you can have is limited not by the size or torque of the engine as you suggest, but by factors of cost, weight, and complexity.

The CVT is a wonderful invention precisely because it removes the limitation of finite ratios between the upper and lower extremes. But people are not used to an engine staying at constant RPM and varying the ratios to match torque to vehicle speed, so this phoney "5 speed CVT" has been created to synthesize the sensation of fixed ratios, but even there, you will not see 4 speed CVTs.

All the cars in the 1.2litre range would be better off with 5 speed automatics (CVT or not) than they would with 4 speed autos.

If you mean economically, it would depend. A CVT might add Rs50,000 compared to a 4 speed auto but not lacs. In fact, even that sounds high to me, considering the CVT automatic option does not add that much to the price of cars in this price range in established markets. Whether a CVT would be worth the extra it would cost I guess depends on the consumer. In my mind, it would be worth it. But if Honda's reading of the market it different, I can only say that it indicates the immaturity of the Indian market, where it is quite possible that a lack of experience with automatics might leave most people wondering why they should pay so much more for a CVT. If that is case, I project that as 4 speed automatics become common and people live with them and realize their limitations, and are THEN presented with the more expensive but greater ratio option, they will go for it then.

Last edited by Harbir : 25th September 2012 at 10:38.
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Old 25th September 2012, 11:03   #65
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Default re: Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
Do you mean technically or economically?

If you mean technically, it would not be correct. Small low torque engines actually benefit from a greater number of ratios because that allows the engine to stay closer to its torque peak more of the time because the ratios are not spaced far apart from each other, something that larger torquier engines can more easily cope with.
A CVT by definition has infinite variable ratios. The four speeds are just presets to define bands, which reduce rubber banding.
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Old 25th September 2012, 11:27   #66
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Default re: Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
A CVT by definition has infinite variable ratios. The four speeds are just presets to define bands, which reduce rubber banding.
My understanding is that, when you drive in a normal mode, the CVT makes use of the infinite gear ratios and the preset intervals do not matter. Preset intervals (such as 4, 5 6 speeds) come in to lay only if you are driving in some sort of sports mode and changing gears manually using a paddle shifter or triptronic.
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Old 25th September 2012, 11:35   #67
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Default re: Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
A CVT by definition has infinite variable ratios. The four speeds are just presets to define bands, which reduce rubber banding.
Yes, I know that. as I said
Quote:
The CVT is a wonderful invention precisely because it removes the limitation of finite ratios between the upper and lower extremes. But people are not used to an engine staying at constant RPM and varying the ratios to match torque to vehicle speed, so this phoney "5 speed CVT" has been created to synthesize the sensation of fixed ratios, but even there, you will not see 4 speed CVTs.
I am not clear what you meant when you said that a 1.2 will not support a 5 speed.
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Old 25th September 2012, 14:11   #68
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Default re: Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10

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Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
I am not clear what you meant when you said that a 1.2 will not support a 5 speed.
Yes, I know that. A 1.2 may not be able to support a fifth speed, and with a CVT a very close ratio may not be necessary.

I could not find the five speed AT in Thailand. I have managed this image, which just shows D S and L. S (or maybe even L only) is sports mode and most critically has engine braking.

Also, the specs (I cannot R or W Thai) seem to show one continuous range for the AT.

Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10-brio_th.jpg

Last edited by bblost : 25th September 2012 at 14:31. Reason: embedded the picture.
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Old 25th September 2012, 17:06   #69
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Default re: Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Yes, I know that. A 1.2 may not be able to support a fifth speed,
Why would it not? thats what I am trying to understand.
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Old 25th September 2012, 17:35   #70
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Default re: Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10

Whatever is sold in Thailand is what we get. I dont see Honda trying to mess around with something thats low volume.

You get the presets only if it has paddles. In auto mode, its like a typical CVT. From what I recall only the Jazz CVT has the paddles.

Also 4-vs 5 speed in a preset is just a software change. There is really no cost increase
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Old 25th September 2012, 19:02   #71
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Default re: Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10

^^The Brio in Thailand does have a 5-speed CVT with the same 1.2L 90bhp engine.
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Old 25th September 2012, 19:36   #72
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Default re: Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10

The Brio AT will have a 4 speed AT. Its pretty much confirmed from the image I saw on Indian Autos Blog. However I am not sure whether this image was snapped in India or in some other country. Here is the pic

Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10-hondabrioatshifter.jpg

Image source : Indianautosblog.com

Cheers,
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Old 25th September 2012, 19:48   #73
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Default re: Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10

let me understand this. The idea that Brio will be a 4 speed is based on the picture that shows D D3 D2 D1? I thought Honda 5 speed ATs have exactly that layout, but I could be wrong. I think its a 5 speed

Last edited by Harbir : 25th September 2012 at 19:53.
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Old 25th September 2012, 20:33   #74
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Default re: Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10

Quote:
The Brio in Thailand does have a 5-speed CVT
Contradictory statement! CV stands for continuously variable
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaush666 View Post
The Brio AT will have a 4 speed AT. Its pretty much confirmed from the image I saw on Indian Autos Blog.
Seriously?? The new BMW 3er 8speed should have D1 - D8 then

Last edited by Mpower : 26th September 2012 at 19:19.
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Old 25th September 2012, 23:24   #75
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Default re: Honda to Launch BRIO Automatic by Diwali EDIT - Clear Pics on Pg 7 & 10

@Mpower and @Harbir

Ha ha! That is not what I am trying to imply. If the car has 5 gears or more they would not bother with a D1 through D6 or D8 and provide a simple manual or tiptronic like function. It looked similar to the A-Star which has 4 gears and similarly u have L, 2, and D3 there to take manual control.

cheers,
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