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Old 27th April 2006, 16:01   #16
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Are they that desperate for engines that biggies like GM, Maruti, Tata and Fiat all have to use the SAME engine in different cars? Is the engine that good? Cant even one of them develop an appropriate engine by themselves?

All the big hatches..save for the getz..will have the same diesel engine.

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Old 27th April 2006, 16:10   #17
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The Fiats multijet is sold to Suzuki and even GM. After Tata fiat tieup even Tata is taking it. I guess Tata may not be that keep on DICOR due to delphi.
But having the same engine in these diesel hatches will mean that the cost of the engine will be quite less due to the volumes as component suppliers may be same for various companies.

Another factor that comes into play is that India is a very very price sensitive market. On an avg a person will buy a car which costs around 65% of his gross salary. For example a person earning 10pa will spend around 6.5.
Contrast that with the west. A person buys a car which costs around 12-15% of his yearly salary.
So this and spiralling fuel costs makes india a unique market, albeit a huge unique market. So here everything takes a back seat, including safety. Its VFM as per FE and running costs which rules the roost. The multijet fits like a glove here thats why this is the fav engine.
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Old 27th April 2006, 17:18   #18
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If all these cars actually start using the same JTD engine as far as I see it a good few things will happen

* Earlier the TUD from pegeuot used to rule the diesel car segment here. Now it will be the JTD.
* It has the potential to bring the diesel car costs down. Pricing will start becoming a factor of what all goodies manufacturers can offer.
* Fiat will be able to survive here even if the car sales keep low because of all the royalty that will acrue.
* Maruti will get a good stranglehold over the car market (as if they do not have enough already).
* I will buy some Maruti stock as soon as that happens.

On a different note the Tatas may junk the Dicor idea if it starts working out cheaper to buy out the engine rather than developing a new one. Also, Delphi itself looks like a prime candidate for bankruptcy. Under such circumstances Tatas may find it judicious to go in for a tried and tested thing with sufficient assurances related to supply etc.
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Old 27th April 2006, 22:21   #19
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The differences between the Multijet 1.3 with 75 and 90 bhp are the geometrically variable turbo system...

Not for nothing this is the 2005 ENGINE OF THE WORLD (1 TO 1.4 LITRE)

Runner-up in this category when it was launched last year, the Fiat-GM Powertrain 1.3-litre turbodiesel has in 2005 taken top honours in the 1-litre to 1.4-litre class. The victory strikes a blow for oil burners in the fuel efficiency battle with hybrids (Honda’s Civic IMA had dominated this category for two years), and is proof of the growing global acceptance of diesel as a fuel of the future.

Fiat-GM’s Polish-built, 1251cc common-rail diesel features the so- called ‘Multijet’ technology that was developed at the Fiat Research Centre. ‘Multijet’ uses electronic control to divide the main injection into several smaller ones to achieve quieter combustion, reduced emissions and increased performance. The system can be applied differently depending on the engine’s requirements at any given moment – for example, to reduce start-up times, provide more torque, or lower noise.

Low weight is a further asset of this 70bhp, 170Nm engine. The use of aluminium in the base and cylinder head helps keep that weight down, thus aiding vehicle performance and handling characteristics.

And it’s compact too: the unit measures just 460mm x 500mm x 650mm, which means it can be installed in a wide variety of vehicles, such as Fiat Panda, Vauxhall Corsa and Suzuki Ignis. This versatility certainly found favour with the judges: “A frugal and agile engine for a wide variety of different cars,” praised Thomas Imhof. Contributed Graham Johnson: “The Fiat-GM is a very smooth, very quiet diesel application that offers fine driveability and performance, combined with economy.”


http://www.ukintpress.com/engineofth...ners/1_14.html
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Old 3rd May 2006, 19:07   #20
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The gameplan for the Tata's should be getting the 1.3 JTD for their Indica.

And do you think that they would have even thought of the smaller DICOR if they never thought of using it? Surely Tata knew of the developments with Fiat. So I am willing to bet that the 1.4 Dicor goes into indigo and marina and this 1.3 JTD will find favors with the Indica.

Smart enough, with a low cost engine they can keep Indica fighting with the rest of the cars.

But on a serious note, have you aver imagined what it is going to be.

We would never brag about the engines, we all would know all our cars uses the same. We are only going to brag about how light the steering is, how light the car is and if the gearshift is good enough. Good I don't want the day to come, when all that would differ is the skin not the heart.
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Old 4th May 2006, 14:22   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappo
On a different note the Tatas may junk the Dicor idea if it starts working out cheaper to buy out the engine rather than developing a new one. Also, Delphi itself looks like a prime candidate for bankruptcy. Under such circumstances Tatas may find it judicious to go in for a tried and tested thing with sufficient assurances related to supply etc.
Please don't say that! I'd like the DICOR (or at least the son of DICOR) to win those awards some day!

As for Delphi's bankruptcy, well BOSCH has been trying hard to convince Tata Motors to buy BOSCH pumps for its cars, in addition to trucks.
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Old 4th May 2006, 14:25   #22
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The Tata indica/go have a Lucas pump, the sumo already comes with a bosch pump. Not sure about this info, maybe sumo owners can confirm this
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Old 4th May 2006, 19:05   #23
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Does Lucas even exist anymore? Lucas was taken over by Delphi and that's how they got into the Diesel FI business. In India, LucasTVS turns into LUcas Delphi.

As far as bankrupcy, the company was pushed into bankrupcy in a calculated move so that the painful union contracts can be nullified in the US. Delphi USA is a separate legal entity and therefore Indian operations will not be affected.

Last edited by Mpower : 7th May 2006 at 20:00.
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Old 10th May 2006, 11:12   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979
The Tata indica/go have a Lucas pump, the sumo already comes with a bosch pump. Not sure about this info, maybe sumo owners can confirm this
Bang on Tata always used Mico Bosch pumps for their vehicles. It is with Indica/go they got the new Lucas. All other TATA vehicles use Mico Bosch.
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Old 10th May 2006, 11:26   #25
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There was an article in ET about 2-3 days back on Maruti's upcoming diesel offering. There it categorically mentioned that Tatas are also planning to use the same engine for their upcoming CRD Indicas and Indigos. As we were speculating, it looks like Tatas decided to shelve the plan for their own DiCoR engine and go with the Fiat engine. And if you look at the list of cars that will opt for this engine it seems that indeed we will become a one-engine market where the diesel cars are concerned. The article also says that already diesels have carved out a 25% or so market share and the analysts predict that the diesel share will touch 45% in another couple of years.
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Old 17th May 2006, 07:35   #26
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This article on moneycontrol.com reports that MUL, Fiat and GM are surely going to use Fiat's 1.3L Multi-jet diesel. Nothing about Tata Indica/Indigo. It says GM will use it on a upcoming compact car which obviously means the Aveo hatch will have a diesel variant. But the best piece of news came from a Fiat official :

Quote:
the price of a Palio diesel version with the new 1300cc engine will drop significantly because the engine will attract excise concessions.


A Palio Multi-jet at a price less then the current Palio D!
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Old 17th May 2006, 13:18   #27
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I just hope they put the 90 bhp VGT version of the 1.3L in a top of the line Palio called the Palio 1.3 GTD to create india's first diesel hot hatch or mabe they can put it in the Grande Punto let other manufacturers have the 70bhp version.
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Old 8th September 2006, 00:42   #28
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75 and 85 bhp 1.3 16v Multijet

The 1.3 16v Multijet, the smallest, most advanced of the second-generation Common Rail direct injection diesels. And now we welcome a new 85 bhp version with a variable geometry turbocharger. With the turbocharger, the 1.3 16v Multijet delivers no less than 85 bhp (62 kW at 4000 rpm) of maximum power and a torque of 200 Nm (20.4 kgm at 1750 rpm) to ensure outstanding performance and one of the best fuel consumption figures in the category.

The 1.3 Multijet also ensures excellent performance and fuel consumption with a power output of 75 bhp (55 kW at 4000 rpm) and a torque of 19.4 kgm (190 Nm at 1750 rpm). Apart from its different turbocharging system (the 75 bhp 1.3 Multijet is turbocharged by a fixed geometry turbocharger), the new power unit features further changes. The combustion system has been changed to increase the permeability of the intake and exhaust ducts, reducing combustion chamber swirl and altering the geometry and compression ratio from 18:1 to 17.6:1. The emission control system includes an electrically operated EGR valve managed directly by the engine control system, an exchanger to cool recirculated exhaust gases and a close coupled catalytic converter. All these devices are to ensure Euro 4 emission limits are met.

So much for the differences between the 75 and 85 bhp versions. The structure of the power unit is common to both. The unit is a 1248 cc 4 cylinder in line power unit with a bore of just 69.6 mm and a 'long' 82 mm stroke. The four valves per cylinder are driven directly by a twin overhead camshaft via finger rockers with a roller. And more. The 1.3 Multijet 16v is a true masterpiece of miniaturised technology: when clad with all its accessories it weighs just 130 kg. Its size is small (it is less than 50 centimetres in length and 65 cm high) and its component layout has been designed to take up as little room as possible.

The power unit is designed in accordance with criteria of maximum rationalism, efficiency and reliability. It offers outstanding performance and practically comes with a lifetime guarantee. It was made to last 250,000 km without any maintenance to its mechanical parts. The oil change intervals have been set at 30,000 km (the 1.3 Multijet 16v uses low viscosity oil. It is therefore thrifty with fuel and also respectful of the environment).

This compact and technologically sophisticated new power unit is also environmentally friendly because it meets Euro 4 emission limits. The version with variable geometry turbocharger also features a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) for the exhaust gases. This mechanical filter is installed in the exhaust system and physically traps the carbon particles present in the Diesel engine exhaust gas. During normal service, the engine control unit records a set of data (service period, route type, temperature reached) and calculates the amount of particulate that has built up in the filter. Because the trap is an accumulation system, it must be regenerated regularly (cleaned) by burning the carbon particles. The engine control unit manages the regeneration process automatically according to the amount of carbon that has accumulated in the filter and vehicle service conditions: all this without the need for additives and without requiring any particular maintenance operations.

The 1.3 Multijet 16v (75 or 85 bhp) therefore represents a true technological leap that translates into a reduction in fuel consumption and emissions for the customer. Not to mention the lower noise levels (due to the multipoint injections); improved comfort (fewer alternating masses for less vibration); smooth, satisfying drive (due to outstandingly gradual torque delivery guaranteed in turn by more effective control of combustion); the flexibility and prompt responses of a diesel that is more and more like a petrol engine due to its broader rpm range (e.g. the fuel cut-off can no longer be felt over 4000 rpm) - and green attributes that allow the main benefits of diesel technology (fuel economy) to be improved as far as the environment is concerned by minimising the main defect (particulate emissions).

105 bhp and 120 bhp 1.9 Multijet

Both with 4 cylinders in line - two valves per cylinder - with bore of 82 millimetres and stroke of 90.4 mm, the former delivers a power output of 105 bhp (77kW) at 4000 rpm and a torque of 200 Nm (20.4 kgm) at 1750 rpm - the latter 120 bhp (88 kW) at 4000 rpm and 200 Nm (20.4 kgm) at 1750 rpm. Both power units have undergone several engineering changes to increase performance and engine torque at low speeds and to reduce noise levels and vibration. The 120 bhp 1.9 Multijet unit is turbocharged via an electronically-controlled Garrett turbocharger with variable geometry turbine that helps improve power delivery by allowing very high torque delivery even at low rpms. Suffice it to say that 90% of maximum torque is available between 1750 and 3250 rpm. These data translate into great driving satisfaction and hot performance. Like the 1.3 Multijet, both 1.9 Multijet engines also meet Euro 4 regulations, due to the EGR emission control system described above. The 120 bhp power unit also offers a particulate trap.

Last edited by adya33 : 8th September 2006 at 01:24.
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Old 8th September 2006, 12:24   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harshavarthan
105 bhp and 120 bhp 1.9 Multijet

Both with 4 cylinders in line - two valves per cylinder - with bore of 82 millimetres and stroke of 90.4 mm, the former delivers a power output of 105 bhp (77kW) at 4000 rpm and a torque of 200 Nm (20.4 kgm) at 1750 rpm - the latter 120 bhp (88 kW) at 4000 rpm and 200 Nm (20.4 kgm) at 1750 rpm. Both power units have undergone several engineering changes to increase performance and engine torque at low speeds and to reduce noise levels and vibration. The 120 bhp 1.9 Multijet unit is turbocharged via an electronically-controlled Garrett turbocharger with variable geometry turbine that helps improve power delivery by allowing very high torque delivery even at low rpms. Suffice it to say that 90% of maximum torque is available between 1750 and 3250 rpm. These data translate into great driving satisfaction and hot performance. Like the 1.3 Multijet, both 1.9 Multijet engines also meet Euro 4 regulations, due to the EGR emission control system described above. The 120 bhp power unit also offers a particulate trap.
Very interesting indeed. It is not for nothing that Tata is after FIAT!

There's also a 16 valve version of the 1.9 which develops 150 BHP.
Incidentally, Maruti has an agreement with FIAT for the 1.9 too. Probably, they'll fit it in the SX4.

According to some reports, a 1.6 multijet also exists but it is not clear whether Maruti's agreement with FIAT covers it. Can you confirm?

Last edited by directinjection : 8th September 2006 at 12:26.
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Old 11th December 2006, 18:16   #30
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Any idea when the new indica with the Fiat 1.3L multijet engine will be available in the market?
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