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Old 17th September 2012, 23:26   #76
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Default Re: Diesel Price Hike - end of the market skew in favour of diesels?

The Differences between Gasoline and Diesel in Goa is Rs. 6.48/-

The Diesel Now cost Rs. 49.27/- pr liter and Branded Diesel cost Rs. 69.72/- Now, here in Goa petrol car sells more as it is more economical to run.
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Old 18th September 2012, 07:30   #77
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Default Re: Diesel Price Hike - end of the market skew in favour of diesels?

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Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
So at the end of the day, which is more economical to run is ENTIRELY a matter of any particular country's regulations and taxation involving the cars themselves, fuel and emissions.
Here you go - with this kind of pricing, most of the diesel demand (esp B/C segment) would disappear overnight:
http://www.shell.com/home/content/in...pricing_board/

THAT shows the extent of government subsidies.
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Old 18th September 2012, 12:03   #78
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Default Re: Diesel Price Hike - end of the market skew in favour of diesels?

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Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
Let us discuss some real world examples. Let us compare the petrol and diesel swift. I am taking onroad prices (delhi) and as tested fuel economy from Autocar India.

VXI: 5.4 lacs, City 12.6km/l, highway 17km/l
VDI: 6.6 lacs city 14.6km/L, highway 19.5km/l

....

Total amount of money not paid as tax on 8, 798 litres = 237, 546.

SO the buyer of the diesel swift is paying 2.37 lacs less in fuel taxes than the petrol.

If we have one time taxation at purchase time to ensure that the tax gets paid, the price of the Diesel swift would be 6.6lacs + 2.4 lacs = 9lacs.
And this does take into account the higher diesel maintenance costs. )
You have not considered the lifetime of the car.
Assuming the life of the car is 15 years as it is a personal car. Another reason being, Life tax is charged for 15 years.
so. An amount of 60000/- would become 240,000/- in a tenure of 15 years according to bank interest.

As the government is collecting the tax at the time of purchase of car, so the same equation.
6.6L + 60K = 7.2 Lac for VDI
5.6 L for VXi

In this case, Diesel wins if the owner clocks all 1.5 L km in 3-4 years and sells it off.. Diesel would be the default VFM proposition for customers.
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Old 18th September 2012, 12:16   #79
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Default Re: Diesel Price Hike - end of the market skew in favour of diesels?

This time got the luck to find out Petrol/Diesel prices across the country from HP website. Looks neat one (hope they are keeping it uptodate).

This link shows the price build up for all HP fuels (Petrol/Diesel/Kerosene/LPG).

This one shows Retail selling price for Petrol/Diesel.
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Old 18th September 2012, 12:21   #80
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Default Re: Diesel Price Hike - end of the market skew in favour of diesels?

Well the days for Speed / Hi-Speed , Power , etc , etc are certainly over . Look at the spike . I doubt any body apart from Ultra rich will buy ful with additives .
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Old 18th September 2012, 13:57   #81
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Default Re: Diesel Price Hike - end of the market skew in favour of diesels?

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Originally Posted by gemi_kk View Post
You have not considered the lifetime of the car.
Assuming the life of the car is 15 years as it is a personal car. Another reason being, Life tax is charged for 15 years.
so. An amount of 60000/- would become 240,000/- in a tenure of 15 years according to bank interest.
I gave a simplified calculation. IF the tax were to be actually implemented, there would need to be statistical studies to determine how much fuel a typical car would consume in its life time and how long it would take to do so, there would be coefficients to project future tax changes over the that time, interest rates, based on which the statisticians would determine an NPV figure which would be added to the price tag of the car.

My simple point is this. THe fuel efficiency differences between petrol and diesel are not that big. in the example of the swift, its only about 2km/L. THATS IT. But Diesel cars also cost about 10% more at a minimum than their petrol equivalents (in India, its more like 20%) because diesel engines cost more to make due to their heavier construction, turbochargers, etc. Whether that small fuel economy advantage can offset the added cost of the diesel engine if fuel prices are equal is not a clear cut answer. If fuel is expensive (both diesel and petrol), the 2km/L advantage of the diesel may save more money than the exra purchase cost of the vehicle. But then the manufacturer may seek to share in that benefit by pricing the Diesel variant higher (as they do in India), reducing the advantage of the diesel.

THis means that whether diesel is more cost effective than petrol comes down purely to taxation and regulatory policies. If fuel taxes and emission regulations do not skew the demand in favor of one or the either, both fuels have similar running costs because the efficiency advantage is negated by the higher hardware costs.

Last edited by Harbir : 18th September 2012 at 14:23.
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Old 18th September 2012, 15:16   #82
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Default Re: Diesel Price Hike - end of the market skew in favour of diesels?

I believe that Car companies should bring new technologies which provides excellent fuel efficiency for Petrol cars compared to Diesel e.g. the Ford's 1 Liter Ecoboost engine, with the help of hybrid technology, if Petrol car gives double the fuel efficiency of Diesel then all private car buyers will buy Petrol cars.
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Old 18th September 2012, 15:18   #83
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Default Re: Diesel Price Hike - end of the market skew in favour of diesels?

@gopinathann; A good Diesel should always beat a good Petrol. A higher compression means a higher efficiency, and diesel has a higher calorific value.
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Old 18th September 2012, 15:43   #84
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Here is another interesting fact. Diesel fuel economy advantage comes from the fact that fuel is sold by volume, rather than weight. They have the same energy content by mass. a kilogram of diesel has the same energy release on combustion as petrol.

If fuel were priced by weight, diesel engines would go out of business for cars because they would yield the same km per rupee, but the higher cost of the diesel engine (sturdier construction due to high stress of diesel combustion, complex and expensive common rail fuel injection systems, turbochargers, etc) would leave diesel uneconomical.

the point I keep reiterating is this. Diesel is not inherently the more economical fuel (money wise). It is made economical when deliberate and/or accidental choices (taxation and regulations, including pricing fuel by volume) are or have been made in its favor.

EDIT: in case you're thinking that this is irrelevant because fuel being a liquid is naturally measured by volume, let me tell you that this is very relevant. Fluids have been measured by volume historically simply because it was easy to determine how much you had based on the volume of container you had. But the world is full of applications where fuel is measured by weight, not volume, such as in rocketry, aircraft, marine military applications (because duel weight affects how much water the ship displaces). Had the petroleum industry chosen a hundred years ago to use weight rather than volume as their standard, the whole equation of diesel and petrol in cars would be different.

Last edited by Harbir : 18th September 2012 at 15:52.
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Old 18th September 2012, 17:40   #85
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Default Re: Diesel Price Hike - end of the market skew in favour of diesels?

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Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
the point I keep reiterating is this. Diesel is not inherently the more economical fuel (money wise). It is made economical when deliberate and/or accidental choices (taxation and regulations, including pricing fuel by volume) are or have been made in its favor.
Honestly I don't know whom are you trying to convince or what you are trying to prove. Most of your arguments have a lot of assumptions, a few of them valid, quite a few of them dependent on changing the market/political/commercial way of thinking. While it serves to be good reading material, I don't see where you want to go with such analysis.

In the end, diesels have a good set of consumers, a lot of them due to the inherent fuel aspects, and a good number of them due to the market situation in our country; and that is not going to change. Please understand, this is not an argumentative stand (to your points), that's a realistic stand.

After all your arguments, and considering all your points, I would still iterate - the diesel option is going to be more beneficial to the end user (assuming he's going to clock a good number of kms) - in terms of fuel efficiency, in terms of cost savings due to lesser taxes and in terms of more fun-to-drive aspect for the buck he's paying.
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Old 18th September 2012, 17:53   #86
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Default Re: Diesel Price Hike - end of the market skew in favour of diesels?

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Originally Posted by ninjatalli View Post
Honestly I don't know whom are you trying to convince or what you are trying to prove. Most of your arguments have a lot of assumptions, a few of them valid, quite a few of them dependent on changing the market/political/commercial way of thinking. While it serves to be good reading material, I don't see where you want to go with such analysis.
Its just food for thought. Since in India, fuel prices won't equalize in the foreseeable future, and since India will not penalize diesel vehicles for their soot and NOx emissions, its all hypothetical analysis that makes no difference in the real world. I am only countering the view that diesels are more cost efficient even when fuel prices are equal. As I said, it means nothing in the real world. We don't care about the harmful emissions of diesel engines and we like the low price, so we buy diesel cars and defend them as a sound choice. Given the regulatory environment, they ARE the sound choice for every individual.

I am simply offering a pro-petrol voice to, in my own small way, to raise awareness about diesel being not the best fuel. THe big issues are health and the economy. I just got carried away trying to make an argument about it at the individual level. Forget that. As a societal level, diesel is bad stuff. THe harm the subsidy is causing the country economically is well discussed and something all citizens who want the well being of INdia should think about, even at the cost of their own pockets. and they should educate themselves on the devastating environental effects of Diesel exhaust.

In the US, research has established that the air pollutant most detrimental to public health, by far, is diesel exhaust. 70% of the cancer risk from air pollutants is from diesel exhaust due to the carcinogenic substances in it. The soot particles not only create smog, the NOx emissions create acid rain, something we have no conciousness of in India. NOx also forms nitric acid vapor that is seriously harmful to lung tissue.

THe US strict regulations that make diesel cars hard to sell in the US are scoffed at by diesel enthusiasts but European cities now have much poorer air quality than american cities. Delhi, despite CNG buses and autos and european emissions standards has one of THE most polluted atmospheres in the world (not counting industrial towns). Delhi has 4 times the maximum safe level of suspended particulate matter, and well over the max safe level of NOx. Air pollution levels in Delhi have increased by 500% in just the last 8 years, all due to explosion of diesel vehicles. Places like Ludhiana and Kanpur appear on the list of 10 most air-polluted cities in the world due to exhaust emissions. Ludhiana is at number 4!.

All over India we're enjoying the financial benefits of diesel as individuals, but we will pay the price in health related problems collectively in the long run (decades), but it will probably not be noticed because we are such an unhealthy society anyway due to a polluted environment. [/b]

I may have bored and irritated most people here with my endless prattling, but if I've made even 2 people rethink their views that Diesel is a wonderful choice compared to petrol, I am satisfied.

Last edited by Harbir : 18th September 2012 at 18:22.
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Old 18th September 2012, 19:00   #87
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Default Re: Diesel Price Hike - end of the market skew in favour of diesels?

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Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
Its just food for thought. Since in India, fuel prices won't equalize in the foreseeable future, and since India will not penalize diesel vehicles for their soot and NOx emissions, its all hypothetical analysis that makes no difference in the real world. I am only countering the view that diesels are more cost efficient even when fuel prices are equal. As I said, it means nothing in the real world. We don't care about the harmful emissions of diesel engines and we like the low price, so we buy diesel cars and defend them as a sound choice. Given the regulatory environment, they ARE the sound choice for every individual.

I am simply offering a pro-petrol voice to, in my own small way, to raise awareness about diesel being not the best fuel. THe big issues are health and the economy. I just got carried away trying to make an argument about it at the individual level. Forget that. As a societal level, diesel is bad stuff. THe harm the subsidy is causing the country economically is well discussed and something all citizens who want the well being of INdia should think about, even at the cost of their own pockets. and they should educate themselves on the devastating environental effects of Diesel exhaust.

In the US, research has established that the air pollutant most detrimental to public health, by far, is diesel exhaust. 70% of the cancer risk from air pollutants is from diesel exhaust due to the carcinogenic substances in it. The soot particles not only create smog, the NOx emissions create acid rain, something we have no conciousness of in India. NOx also forms nitric acid vapor that is seriously harmful to lung tissue.

THe US strict regulations that make diesel cars hard to sell in the US are scoffed at by diesel enthusiasts but European cities now have much poorer air quality than american cities. Delhi, despite CNG buses and autos and european emissions standards has one of THE most polluted atmospheres in the world (not counting industrial towns). Delhi has 4 times the maximum safe level of suspended particulate matter, and well over the max safe level of NOx. Air pollution levels in Delhi have increased by 500% in just the last 8 years, all due to explosion of diesel vehicles. Places like Ludhiana and Kanpur appear on the list of 10 most air-polluted cities in the world due to exhaust emissions. Ludhiana is at number 4!.

All over India we're enjoying the financial benefits of diesel as individuals, but we will pay the price in health related problems collectively in the long run (decades), but it will probably not be noticed because we are such an unhealthy society anyway due to a polluted environment. [/b]

I may have bored and irritated most people here with my endless prattling, but if I've made even 2 people rethink their views that Diesel is a wonderful choice compared to petrol, I am satisfied.
Is Diesel a wonderful choice on environmental/FTD/Patriotic choice ? - Probably NO

Is Diesel a wonderful choice economically if you drive >600-700km a month considering Fuel Prices / Resale Price ? - Hell YES !!

End of the day, people still care about their wallet more than environment, national interest etc. So they will still go out and buy a diesel.
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Old 18th September 2012, 19:40   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbir
Its just food for thought.
...
...
I may have bored and irritated most people here with my endless prattling, but if I've made even 2 people rethink their views that Diesel is a wonderful choice compared to petrol, I am satisfied.
Definitely food for thought! Thanks for the post.
Since this discussion is probably OT here, it will be great if you can start a thread on this specific topic. I am quite confused on this one. Especially with the fact that manufacturers are now promoting diesel cars as less polluting / green based on CO2 emissions (especially in Europe).
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Old 18th September 2012, 19:49   #89
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Default Re: Diesel Price Hike - end of the market skew in favour of diesels?

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Originally Posted by ethanhunt123 View Post
Is Diesel a wonderful choice on environmental/FTD/Patriotic choice ? - Probably NO

Is Diesel a wonderful choice economically if you drive >600-700km a month considering Fuel Prices / Resale Price ? - Hell YES !!

End of the day, people still care about their wallet more than environment, national interest etc. So they will still go out and buy a diesel.

We know that.

The environment and the economy seem like abstract issues, removed from the day to day reality of our lives. But this is a short sighted view.

We and our children breathe this air. We and our children lose prosperity when the economy growth is slowed by the macroeconomic effects of fuel subsidies.

Do we want to have a conversation about this and try to raise our consciousness from our individual selves to our collective self?

Because if we're not, then lets admit that all this patriotism and pride in India is all just faltu ki entertainment for us, that in fact we are not interested in what is good for all us as a society, only in what benefits us personally. That is not citizenship and we are poor citizens of the republic.

Mera bharat will be mahan only when Indians care as much about the well being of their fellow citizens as they do about themselves.

We are not there yet.

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
Definitely food for thought! Thanks for the post.
Since this discussion is probably OT here, it will be great if you can start a thread on this specific topic. I am quite confused on this one. Especially with the fact that manufacturers are now promoting diesel cars as less polluting / green based on CO2 emissions (especially in Europe).
I will do that. give me a day or two. I have been thinking about the gaps in my knowledge that I want to fill in before I start the conversation. Please allow me to do the research and then I will start the a new thread. Till then I will hold anything further I have to say, and comment no further on this thread.

Thanks!

Last edited by Harbir : 18th September 2012 at 19:52.
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Old 18th September 2012, 19:57   #90
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Default Re: Diesel Price Hike - end of the market skew in favour of diesels?

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Originally Posted by ninjatalli View Post
In the end, diesels have a good set of consumers, a lot of them due to the inherent fuel aspects, and a good number of them due to the market situation in our country; and that is not going to change. Please understand, this is not an argumentative stand (to your points), that's a realistic stand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanhunt123 View Post
Is Diesel a wonderful choice on environmental/FTD/Patriotic choice ? - Probably NO

Is Diesel a wonderful choice economically if you drive >600-700km a month considering Fuel Prices / Resale Price ? - Hell YES !!

End of the day, people still care about their wallet more than environment, national interest etc. So they will still go out and buy a diesel.
That's what it boils down to at the end of the day. When I purchased my diesel car the primary reason was cost of my daily running. I was already running somewhere near 12K annually on a petrol car when the government happily decided to pull a little more wool over our eyes by announcing no subsidies any more on petrol while surreptitiously continuing to collect taxes on petrol. As per this link http://www.hindustanpetroleum.com/Up...dup_petrol.pdf central & state excise/taxes can vary anywhere from Rs 22 to 26 per liter .

When I came to know about this, apart for my need of clocking higher kilometers I also argued that what in almighty's name has the government provided me in return on those taxes I paid on petrol or would be paying on petrol. Pathetic public infrastructure and transportation, more broken roads, my commute times was multiplied by three times already. Why should I continue using a fuel which only makes me poorer in the long run while the quality of life of the politicos at my expense improves manifold. That was one of the big reasons too I switched to a diesel vehicle and I am sure many are doing that using the same logic. Diesel without any taxes would probably be range bound between Rs 46-50 if all taxes are excluded. Don't want to turn this into a political debate but unless the exorbitantly higher taxes collected on fuels is addressed this skew is going to continue forever.

About 12 years back when I lived in New York City and I am sure it is the same now, I found their public transport system second to none. In fact having a vehicle in the city was a big pain in the wrong place because of exorbitant parking charges. Everybody who worked in Manhattan were more or less commuting from the tri-state area (New Jersey, Connecticut & Pennsylvania) and the other boroughs on a daily basis and they were able to do so because of the fantastic public transportation system. Imagine if all had used cars instead, Manhattan would have turned to debris in half a day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
In the US, research has established that the air pollutant most detrimental to public health, by far, is diesel exhaust. 70% of the cancer risk from air pollutants is from diesel exhaust due to the carcinogenic substances in it. The soot particles not only create smog, the NOx emissions create acid rain, something we have no conciousness of in India. NOx also forms nitric acid vapor that is seriously harmful to lung tissue.
Indeed there are high health risks involved with all fossil fuels but to my point what has our planners and the supposed geniuses who defecate in designer toilets at taxpayer expense have done to address it. Have they urgently called for an overhaul of public infrastructure and transportation reducing the need of the average citizen to burn fossil fuels. No. Instead they are trying to posture as great economists only in theory. Theoretically if they want to lower the use of diesel by the private car owners, have they ever called for immediate reduction of the back breaking taxation that petrol users endure so that more diesel users are encouraged to use petrol cars. No. They are very happy letting the politicos confuse the average citizen and let a, to some extent, pointless debate on petrol vs diesel carry on while their political masters siphon off the taxes collected from the nation. Obviously the beautiful thing is that these so called hallowed economists do not forget to collect their fat consulting fees for their precious advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbir View Post
We and our children breathe this air. We and our children lose prosperity when the economy growth is slowed by the macroeconomic effects of fuel subsidies.

Do we want to have a conversation about this and try to raise our consciousness from our individual selves to our collective self?

Because if we're not, then lets admit that all this patriotism and pride in India is all just faltu ki entertainment for us, that in fact we are not interested in what is good for all us as a society, only in what benefits us personally. That is not citizenship and we are poor citizens of the republic.

Mera bharat will be mahan only when Indians care as much about the well being of their fellow citizens as they do about themselves.

We are not there yet.
The average citizen can take an initiative towards more responsibility for these issues if the government too is supportive and takes some concrete steps. Ideally we should have followed the US model as you have said with negligible taxation on petrol, more stringent emission standards, more stringent fuel efficiency standards as is being done currently, to make folks more prosperous in the long run. Spend the taxes collected more on infrastructure not only in a few cities but B and C tier cities to greatly reduce the use of vital resources by reducing migration and long commute times. Sorry about the rant but our nation seems to have been sold to the corruption Satan a long time back so unfortunately right now it's a free for all . So much so that when there are honest minded individuals with impeccable records taking up the cudgels to help change the status quo and want something better for us and our children, we the citizens, work overtime aided by our mainstream media to malign them, pull them down, nit pick their faults which the politicos lasciviously cheer on and thank us for doing their job. At the risk of not going OT anymore I will stop here.

Last edited by samarjitdhar : 18th September 2012 at 20:02.
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