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Old 23rd August 2009, 11:56   #256
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Guys you need to keep the scale of operations and size of market chunk in mind while declaring something as flop.

Reva is the only EV car and a status symbol of Eco friendly it was never meant to be a mass market and it is expensive at 3.5 lakhs for a micro 2 seater car but it is a Niche and playing quite well in it's defined segment.

Rhino is not flop it is picking slowly and steadily first in north and now I am seeing more and more Rhinos in Bangalore as pick up cabs. Sonalika started as small operation with low marketing budget and was nowhere compared to M&M and Tata , Thier peak production capacity is under 200 Vehicals per month.

Similarly Indigo Marina is not flop by any yardstick , How many station wagons we have in market ? While Maruti Pulled out Baleno Altura and Fiat discontinued Adventure Marina is only one which is still selling in large numbers but you can not compare the sale of niche product to mainstream ones. I can safely say it is still largest selling station wagon.
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Old 23rd August 2009, 12:13   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Rhino is not flop it is picking slowly and steadily first in north and now I am seeing more and more Rhinos in Bangalore as pick up cabs. Sonalika started as small operation...
The Rhino is actually a runaway success since Toyota stopped producing the Qualis. The first time I encountered one some years ago, I thought it was a modded Qualis! Sonalika never advertised this product till very recently, and it still sold in fairly large numbers in Punjab by word-of-mouth advertising. Today, the company has a waiting list for the Rhino, and it is a hit among commercial cab operators!
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Old 23rd August 2009, 12:14   #258
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The following cars come to my mind

1) Tata Estate

2) Standard 2000

3) Corsa Sail

4) Ford Escort

5) Zen Estilo

6) Skoda Fabia

7) Fiat Petra

8) Hyundai Sonata

9) Grand Vitara (previous model)

10) ? Honda Jazz
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Old 23rd August 2009, 12:19   #259
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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
The Rhino is actually a runaway success since Toyota stopped producing the Qualis. The first time I encountered one some years ago, I thought it was a modded Qualis! Sonalika never advertised this product till very recently, and it still sold in fairly large numbers in Punjab by word-of-mouth advertising. Today, the company has a waiting list for the Rhino, and it is a hit among commercial cab operators!
Yes I heard interiors of Rhino are almost luxurious seeing the price point but never seen it first hand, Have they increased the production capacity earlier I heard it is just 150 - 200 Vehicles per month ?
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Old 23rd August 2009, 12:25   #260
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Have they increased the production capacity earlier I heard it is just 150 - 200 Vehicles per month ?
I have no idea how many vehicles Sonalika produces per month, but in a casual conversation with a cab operator I learnt that delivery can be delayed by a month after booking. The reasons it is such a success, as the guy said, was its cost, the easy availability of spares (it supposedly uses components of a variety of other SUVs), and its FE.
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Old 23rd August 2009, 12:48   #261
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GM Opel brand failed miserably in India -
1. Astra
2. Vectra
3. Corsa
4. Corsa Sail
5. Corsa Swing
These cars done well in other parts of the world but never impressed Indian buyers. Same happened to Sipani Rover Montego, Ford Mondeo, Peugoet 309. MSIL's Zen was a big hit in Indian market but is siblings 2-door Zen Carbon/Steel and 4-door Classic was a failure.
In India only 4 persons out of 1000 own a vehicle which is much lower in comparison to the other contries like Thailand (35), Brazil (92), South Korea (187) and USA (450). In India car is still a luxury item as the affordability is low. So whoever buy a car look for better service, long lasting product, easy to maintain, good FE, practicallity and smarter look. We never ready to experiment with our cars. Nobody in India buys a San Strom/Zen steel or carbon as their first or only car and how many people can afford a second car. Opel and Peugoet is considered a good brand in Europe but failed here because of their lousy service network. In case of Peugoet horn was not there in the steering wheel, it was stock mounted, hatch back kind of boot - we are not familiar with these things.
On the other hand Maruti 800 has no safety features it just has a chasis and an engine that can pull four adults. But its a champion in Indian market becuse of its affordibility, fantastic VFM, causes little dent in your pocket in terms of operational cost. Some time I just wonders that may be 2 years down the line we have to add Nano in this list. Its affordable but I'm not sure how Indian consumer will take the features like rear mounted engine, difficult to access boot etc. God knows..
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Old 23rd August 2009, 13:23   #262
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Logan? Can we consider it a flop? I know it's selling decent nos. But it was supposed to be the NEXT Maruti 800 in its segment. Absolutely bombed these expectations. What stupid cost cutting measures they were raving about. It turned out to be a sore thumb for Mahindra.
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Old 23rd August 2009, 14:22   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
Logan? Can we consider it a flop? I know it's selling decent nos. But it was supposed to be the NEXT Maruti 800 in its segment. Absolutely bombed these expectations. What stupid cost cutting measures they were raving about. It turned out to be a sore thumb for Mahindra.
I dunno about that. Its being used by many taxi drivers. Pretty common these days in Bangalore. That does count as success doesn't it?
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Old 23rd August 2009, 14:26   #264
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the Indigo Marina is also a hit with taxi drivers. What i meant was, the magnitude with which the operations started in India, with Renault and Mahindra hyping it up soo much. The DACIA sells for much cheaper in Romania. Wonder why they cant price it likewise here. Explains the flop show in passenger sales.


Taxis: well, they prefer any car from any manufacturer that offers them a discount. Explains why so many taxis are indigos and indigo xls. the petrol variants of these models JUST dont sell. tata gives a large discount + cng kit. taxi operators flock to buy.

The same goes with the Logan. The petrols are not selling. AT all. Well, the 1.6 is a SUPER FLOP


and i wouldn't consider the escort as a flop. Then that way, the Daewoo Nexia is also a flop. They were niche models for the time. Sold ok numbers.

Last edited by frankmehta : 23rd August 2009 at 14:27.
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Old 23rd August 2009, 14:36   #265
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The chevrolet SRV didnt really sell as much as people would have thought. It is a neat looking hatchback, has a very sporty appearance. It maybe a bit over priced at 8L onroad. I live in bangalore, and I have hardly seen 10 SRV's. I wonder what it lacked, besides being slightly overpriced(IF you can say that) Maybe it did not have enough brand value at the time, cause chevrolet was relatively new back then.
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Old 23rd August 2009, 17:37   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KITE RUNNER View Post
The following cars come to my mind

3) Corsa Sail

5) Zen Estilo

6) Skoda Fabia

10) ? Honda Jazz
the above cars you mentioned are not Flops. you see many of them in mumbai. the estilo- by no means its a flop!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaddiwale View Post
GM Opel brand failed miserably in India -
1. Astra
2. Vectra
3. Corsa
4. Corsa Sail
5. Corsa Swing
the astra & corsa were not flops. astras sold pretty well in the 90's until the honda city was launched. i remember the cielo, astra & escort was launched almost together & it was the astra which sold decent numbers. even the corsas sold well.

guys, flops means real disasters. Now, vectra is a flop. you hardly see any on the road. but corsa & astra, they may be few but certeinly not rare.
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Old 23rd August 2009, 18:49   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post

Taxis: well, they prefer any car from any manufacturer that offers them a discount. Explains why so many taxis are indigos and indigo xls. the petrol variants of these models JUST dont sell. tata gives a large discount + cng kit. taxi operators flock to buy.
No outside Taxi market also marina sells the main selling point is the station wagon body type at a cheap price point and cheap components and maintenance. Now Station wagon is itself a niche segment and Marina is largest selling till now both in private and taxi segment.
Also most taxi marina are diesel Meru cabs in Bangalore recently acquired 400 Diesel Marina easy cabs have similar number.

About Logan not a failure but yes it is not a spectacular hit like what it was promised to be because probably it is one decade late , There are better fit and finish 3 box cars available in market .
Probably in Romania there were noting similar to Dezire and Indigo at lower end and Honda City ( lowest variant ) at price point of higher end of Logan price band.


GM discontinued Opel brand and focused only on Cheverolet brand by introducing ex Dawoo models in Chevrolet badge, It has more to do with branding and not failure of Corsa and Astra.
IMHO GM should have done just reverse of this branding strategy or retained Dawoo brand in Asia because Cheverolet was synonymous with oil guzzler and costly not extacly selling points here.

Last edited by amitk26 : 23rd August 2009 at 18:53.
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Old 23rd August 2009, 18:57   #268
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Daewoo has very less value outside india though they continue to suffocate the indian market
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Old 31st August 2009, 04:33   #269
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Default Cars that failed in India that were just right for the country

Some where I had touched on this subject in another post, but I thought it will make for an interesting thread. With my reasons for why they were right, and why they failed, here is a starter list, in no particular order:

1. Fiat Uno - great interior package including a huge boot. Very good ride on mediocre roads, and very stable on good ones at ton up speeds. Very well designed and practical interiors with high quality and long lasting materials. Brilliant quality seats, and very comfortable ones too. Sturdy and very usable parcel shelf, still to be bettered. Fantastic naturally aspirated diesel option that pulled like a locomotive. In the ghats, it out climbed a 1.3 Esteem with ease. Great AC. Very sturdy build, and still very compact, with a decently small turning circle. Would have given a very viable option to the Maruti tin cans.
What killed it? First PAL, then Fiat mismanagement.

2. Fiat Palio - car designed ground up for third world countries. For both ease and low cost of manufacture, and for roads/fuel issues prevalent. Many of the build attributes of the Uno, in a bigger, more modern package. Fantastic build quality, and just a better Uno.
What killed it ? FE issues, Maruti/Hyundai propaganda against it, poor marketing, poor dealership particularly the service side, quality issues with localization increase, that still persist, the cars made today are nowhere as good as the 2001/02 ones. Which were largely made in Brazil, a third world country, btw. None the issues that killed it were inherent in the product, so another case of company mismanagement, including refusal to acknowledge that the customer is always right, and should not be looked down upon as the Italians tend to do!

3. Peugeot 309 - car that sold in huge numbers in Africa, and could have been the next Indica, but it would have given us a great boot as well. Great build, great ride, fantastic ground clearance because of innovative suspension packaging. The view from one end of the car, between the wheels is still unsurpassed for the amount of daylight you could see, it probably had as much GC as a Gypsy! Brilliant diesel, the TUD 5 engine was the Fiat multijet equivalent of its day for refinement and FE.
What killed it ? PAL's utter mismanagement, and probably Peugeot distance from the market.

4. Ford Fusion - alll in one car from hatchback to SUV! It is like a mini CRV, and would have been perfect for India at the right price, and with better interiors at the current price point. Would have gotten a lot of people get over their hang up about a boot.
What killed it - Ford never figured out how to position the car, and then finished the job by poor interior build quality and expensive/poor after sales service.

5. Chevrolet Forester - Another great estate that would have made a lot more sense than all the softroaders in the market for all around use. Classic body lines, and it still looks fresh and contemporary. Fantastic build, and well designed and built interiors. Lots of load carrying space, true all wheel drive, unlike most other so called AWDs/ full time 4wds - the rare car where the AWD was a part of the handling story as well as the mild off roading support. Huge ground clearance, perfect for Indian roads and highways, with well sorted out suspension. I think it would have been a lot more utilized than what today's SUVs are, in terms of using all its features.

What killed it ? Priced way too high, and brought in when the Chevrolet brand was totally unknown to most people here. And the car is not a Chevrolet in character, it is Subaru by design, build, and character. Would probably have been better served by building on the Subaru Impreza story and genes that it carried - another Pajero kind of success. And GM at that time hadn't solved the service puzzle either.

I am sure that there are others in this category. Just the above cars span all but the high end segments, and their success would have made motoring in India a lot more of a pleasant experience for a large number of people, is my belief.

Last edited by Technocrat : 31st August 2009 at 12:44. Reason: Formatted the post for better readability :)
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Old 31st August 2009, 08:54   #270
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I think there is another thread on this too, but will add one more car :

1) Baleno.
TBHP has a lot of data on this car. We have one and I can assure that only a few cars under Rs. 10 lakh barrier can be so good all round.
This is a car well known to all of us here.

2) Mitsubishi Lancer Cedia.
Again at TBHP we have good amount of data on this car. One drive is sufficient to say that this is a very good car. It failed because of Mitsubishi and its marketing.

About the 309.
The suspension package you are talking about was availbale in all its models except the MPV from peugeot. One fact that you have not mentioned is handling and ride. Esteem and Celio were no match for this car in this case. Even today 309 can be a teacher for new gen midsize cars.
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