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Old 2nd November 2012, 15:17   #31
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Default Re: Should Tata just put JLR in charge of Tata motors?

Tata cars might be inexpensive and target a different segment. Still, it pertains to a different set of expertise which I dont think anyone or JLR would have.

Tata needs a refresh in its design since they may have improved mechanically. They need to change the team to infuse some new thoughts. Again, when will most of us buy a Tata automobile product? They are not there yet.

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Old 3rd November 2012, 01:19   #32
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Default Re: Should Tata just put JLR in charge of Tata motors?

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Tata cars might be inexpensive and target a different segment. Still, it pertains to a different set of expertise which I dont think anyone or JLR would have.

Tata needs a refresh in its design since they may have improved mechanically. They need to change the team to infuse some new thoughts. Again, when will most of us buy a Tata automobile product? They are not there yet.
Agreed. They have improved mechanically vastly by going into partnership with Fiat for Quadrajet Engines, which offer good performance, efficiency and are reliable as well. They have to introduce a new hatch IMO. Indica and Indica Vista have occupied the cab segment. I know many who consider Vista as a taxi car. Like Maruti was advertising. So, a new hatch focusing more on this is necessary. A change in design cues, a progressive improvement in A.S.S over the years, all will make more Indians accept Tata cars.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 06:13   #33
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Default Re: Should Tata just put JLR in charge of Tata motors?

Does Landrover have a reputation for good quality now? I remember that 7-8 years back, Landrover quality used to be a running joke in the USA. There were jokes like

Q. How do you know your Land Rover is low on oil?
A. Just look below. If there is no oil leaking, that means it's low on oil.

Just google for land rover oil leak. You will find gazillion stories about all kinds of oil leaks.

Last edited by carboy : 3rd November 2012 at 06:15.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 08:00   #34
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Well, looks are subjective bro. I find that they could imporve the designs a lot. Rather than making the Manza a boot version of Vista, they can altogether put up a new design. Even the Manza hybrid concept which they showed off looks better. of-course, the 3 things you mentioned require must improvement though.
Well, if Manza had different looks it would have cost 50% more. Having multiple cars on the same platform / same dies is what makes them affordable.

We may want many things but are we prepared to pay for them?
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Old 3rd November 2012, 10:54   #35
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Default Re: Should Tata just put JLR in charge of Tata motors?

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Agreed and respect your views. You may be having more experience w.r.t TATA since you are visiting since 2006. I don't know what model you have but there would be something that makes you stick around with TATA?
Amit, My signature says what car i have. Its FIAT 1.6 Sport.

I hate Tata service when it comes to fixing problems. but,
I love Tata service when it comes to Warranty. When ever i make a complaint, they check it and directly say only one point upfront that "Sir, i will place an order for this part, once the part arrives, i will call you so that you can come and get it replaced."

It would be a bliss to the owner of the car. The complete part would be changed in warranty with out any trouble. In case of other manufacturers, you need to say & explain and some times you need to demand that the car is in warranty and ask for new part. But tata never does that, they will replace the parts directly. I love it when the vehicle is in warranty.

The problem comes when warranty is out. They rather push you to buy the new parts rather than fixing the problem. As you know, some of the spares are too expensive and fixing them might cost some 5% of the actual cost of the new part. the best example "Replace the brake pads sir instead of cleaning. the pads had some 50% of life "

Your car is in warranty, so you will Love the experience.
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Old 4th November 2012, 20:27   #36
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Default Re: Should Tata just put JLR in charge of Tata motors?

Tatas have been in business long enough to understand that business happens in cyclical order. If one day JLR is making money and bailing out Tata Motors then some other day it would be vice versa. Hence I don't necessarily think that they would let one run the other. They can think of jointly sharing the success stories and best practices across the companies but it would be foolhardy to merge the two or let one run the other. At least on Mr. Tata's watch it ain't gonna happen.
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Old 5th November 2012, 01:24   #37
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Default Re: Should Tata just put JLR in charge of Tata motors?

After reading a lot of posts in this thread, here are my views on it.

1. JLR quality being superior and TATA needs to learn from JLR: Incorrect in a way, good quality is only useful when it is reliable. JLR is good on quality because it can charge for it, it's not yet good on reliability which spoils the whole purpose. It's making huge progress in focussing on this aspect and millions have already been pumped in to improve quality and reliability. TATA plays a different market altogether, huge volumes and different models govern the TATA business model. JLR's business model is governed by premium cars produced in low numbers that are high on quality price.

2. Markets and management strategy: If JLR has managed to come out of the ditch that its previous parent Ford left it in, it is because of TATA. They have re-aligned the entire management and business model in the past 3 years which has got the company to where it is now. TATA has introduced something known as the "TATA business excellency model" called TBEM at JLR. I read in one of the post that JLR management is the same as it was under Ford, nope, that's incorrect. There have been numerous changes in the management and the entire focus has shifted from "making quality cars for a select few markets" to "making quality cars in numbers for as many markets as we can". China is the biggest market for JLR as of now. Asia and USA are strong contenders and are being chased rapidly. JLR has invested huge money in market homologation exercises which did not exist under Ford's regime.

3. Technology sharing: As of now JLR is in the "learning phase" from TATA. Lot of projects are being handled by TATA technology and TCS to provide (in very blunt words) cheap expertise and labour. JLR has a long way to learn from TATA to become a market player. After 3 years of association, the tide has now started flowing the other way as well. TATA is learning a lot from JLR on the design and entertainment technology in the cars (that's all I can reveal at the moment, sorry guys!)

In my opinion, JLR can never be in charge of the whole of TATA Motors. This is true the other way as well. These two brands have a very different signature and to some extent contrasting products. They are best suited to share knowledge and pull each other up. Perhaps why TATA never fired the whole JLR management and let Mr. Ravi Kant handle JLR when they merged. These big boys sure know what they are doing!!
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Old 5th November 2012, 10:43   #38
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Default Re: Should Tata just put JLR in charge of Tata motors?

Worth a read: Interview with Karl-Heinz Servos, project director – joint projects, engineering research centre at Tata Motors:

Two points from the interview worth mentioning here:
  • Safari Storme is a Tata-only development.
  • We will surprise the nation in future, in the next 3-5 years. At the moment, we are loading and at one point we will shoot.
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Old 5th November 2012, 13:45   #39
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Default Re: Should Tata just put JLR in charge of Tata motors?

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Originally Posted by dgupta View Post
1. JLR quality being superior and TATA needs to learn from JLR: Incorrect in a way, good quality is only useful when it is reliable. JLR is good on quality because it can charge for it, it's not yet good on reliability which spoils the whole purpose.
What's the difference between quality & the reliability? Can you build stuff which is unreliable & call it "High Quality"?
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Old 5th November 2012, 23:30   #40
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Default Re: Should Tata just put JLR in charge of Tata motors?

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What's the difference between quality & the reliability? Can you build stuff which is unreliable & call it "High Quality"?
hmm, that's an interesting question!

i guess quality as we hear in automotive circles could mean build quality or quality of materials not necessarily the 'quality' of quality circles et al., you can have low quality of materials but still be reliable!

the palio was fairly wel built but i hear has some electrical problems which reduce their reliability.

for example, etios (while the jury can still be out, since it is a new product), knowing Toyota you can expect reliability but the quality of materials look a li'l cheap.


looked another way, both quality and reliability can be seen as one - if something is built with 'quality', the corollary is that it is reliable as well!

confusing? well..
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Old 6th November 2012, 04:52   #41
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Originally Posted by carboy

What's the difference between quality & the reliability? Can you build stuff which is unreliable & call it "High Quality"?
It can be better understood by subdividing quality into material quality and build quality. Reliability is independent of material quality to a great extent but depends on the build quality.
I am assuming of course that the material quality even if lacking in quality feel would at a basic level be good which is quite important for any manufacturer.
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Old 6th November 2012, 19:46   #42
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Default Re: Should Tata just put JLR in charge of Tata motors?

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What's the difference between quality & the reliability? Can you build stuff which is unreliable & call it "High Quality"?
Interesting question on a controversial topic, I will try to present my view on it.

Quality: When used in automotive sense, it generally is measured as a metric of the form and function of various parts of the car. The interior trim, sound system, body panels, tyres and so on. The list is endless. How premium they feel and how well they work.

Reliability: Almost always measured as the "longevity" of the various components in the car.

Eg: By common consumer belief in the UK, Honda cars are not premium built, but they are reliable. VW makes quality cars (the fit and finish is better) but they are not as reliable and long lasting as the Jap cars.

I guess there is a very thin line separating these two areas. I find the above more apt in an automotive environment.
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Old 10th November 2012, 04:10   #43
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Default Re: Should Tata just put JLR in charge of Tata motors?

Wait a minute the only cars authorised by Tata so far at JLR are the F type and the XF Estate. All the other cars were already planned by Ford and Tata had to sign off the Evoque because Ford made Tata agree to build it as part of the purchase terms. Tatas biggest contribution has been to provide money and to change the top man at JLR to Ralph Speth.

Don't get me wrong I think Tata are doing a good job at JLR but essentially that good job is appending by just letting JLR get on with it.

Can JLR design volume cars? Er yes because during the British Aerospace era all of Rovers cars were designed in Gaydon with Honda. In fact Rovers biggest failure in its corporate history was the Tata designed City Rover.

Tata motors needs to export volume cars to countries like Britain. But as importantly it must stop Suzuki and co gaining more traction at home. If Tata fails then JLR may be all that's left of Tata motors within a decade. VW are planning a massive assault on the Indian market and their volume cars are in another league to Tatas. Dacia is also arriving and the do cheap much better than Tata does because the consumer doesn't feel their cars are cheap.

Yes Tata management must determine what cars need making. But let JLR design the cars so they can be credible alternatives to Davia and co. Tata R and D is improving but even the Chinese know its better to let JLR design their cars than to let Cherry do it...... And frankly China are thrashing India at car making....
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Old 10th November 2012, 07:37   #44
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Default Re: Should Tata just put JLR in charge of Tata motors?

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Originally Posted by dgupta View Post
Interesting question on a controversial topic, I will try to present my view on it.

Quality: When used in automotive sense, it generally is measured as a metric of the form and function of various parts of the car. The interior trim, sound system, body panels, tyres and so on. The list is endless. How premium they feel and how well they work.

Reliability: Almost always measured as the "longevity" of the various components in the car.

Eg: By common consumer belief in the UK, Honda cars are not premium built, but they are reliable. VW makes quality cars (the fit and finish is better) but they are not as reliable and long lasting as the Jap cars.

I guess there is a very thin line separating these two areas. I find the above more apt in an automotive environment.
I don't know - reliability comes from quality. If a car is not reliable, it's surely lacking in some quality parameters. At best you could say that VW makes cars with are good in some areas of quality but not in others. And the same with Honda.
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Old 10th November 2012, 13:42   #45
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Default Re: Should Tata just put JLR in charge of Tata motors?

JLR can be put to take over the QC at TATA but there must be 2 things followed

The session should be really a "Brainstorming" session and not a session where the seniors force juniors to work on thier idea. Scorpio's Coffee table book describes how M&M took suggestions from vendors, suppliers and shop floor folks on Scorpio. No doubt, Scorpio outsells Safari 4:1

Quality comes at a price YES, but there is a basic level of quality and reliability expected and the whatever price is paid towards that Quality or reliability is justified. I am okay with Tata increasing prices by 10% but offer quality on par with At least Hyundai and Maruti.

Aria was a good oppurtunity to up thier game and 200 units per month actually works out for Tata in a way that they have fewer customers to cater. A satisfied Aria customer might end up buying a Manza for his wife.

I am sure there are some basic simple practices in JLR that TATA can adopt in its shop floor without incurring cost. Slowly the game must be upped. It would not be a bad idea to hire someone who retired recently from J or LR and use his experience to polish the TATA line
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