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Old 16th November 2012, 10:51   #31
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Default Re: Car Parking costs a whopping Crore in Mumbai

Mumbai aside, I was enquiring about a new project in Kolkata where a 800 sq ft 2BHK flat is selling for 15L in the New Town area. It is a steal at that price. However compared to that the parking space price surprised me. No covered parking available. There are 3 options. Open Parking - 3.75L, Stacked Parking Tier1 - 3.5L and Tier2 - 2.5L. Also you cannot buy more than one space.
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Old 16th November 2012, 10:53   #32
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Default Re: Car Parking costs a whopping Crore in Mumbai

With just about 200sq feet available per person in Mumbai (as per statistics quoting available area vs total population), I am not surprised with parking lots selling for a few lakhs.
This is bound to happen, with over 40% of land in Mumbai occupied by illegal slums, thanks to the land mafia. If the BMC seriously cleans up slums and makes it very difficult to grab new land, we should see a drastic drop in land and hence flat and parking prices. I mean if a builder buys land for building at 5000/sq feet how can you expect him to sell flats at anything lesser than 10k/sq feet?

All the above stems from simple and dirty corruption as is all ugly things in India. Only if we get rid of corruption and corrupt people, can we start rationalising most of the ills in our society.

As someone quoted, regarding black money being the reason for keeping property prices high, yes its true to a certian extent, however in Mumbai, there are about 1lac housing units which are unsold, lying as dead stock with various builders!! The builders are still forced to keep up high prices, because they have recovered land at high costs, spent money in rehousing slums on them, and then spent a bomb finishing building apartments on the land. If prices drop, or they sell below cost, its the quickest way to bankcrupcy.
Its also not easy today to burn black cash and buy properties, because the govt has become strict in questioning income sources of flat owners and payment sources when builders are audited. Its relatively easy to buy benami land in rural areas using black cash

Last edited by apachelongbow : 16th November 2012 at 10:59.
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Old 17th November 2012, 06:24   #33
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Default Re: Car Parking costs a whopping Crore in Mumbai

The real estate scene in india is such that there is a very rare possibility of someone making loss by investing in property, be it flats, office space, shops or land! if you have patience and are ready to stay invested for a few years, you are bound to make good profit!

I have noticed this over the years that a investment in property at whichever rate and at whatever market condition is never a bad decision. the rates have multiplied over the years and will continue doing the same. and I am not just talking about the metro cities here, even small towns have the same stories to tell. people say the rates will get corrected at all the times and they do too. but its usually 10-20% correction after 70-80% increase! and also if you enter at a wrong time, i.e. the rates get corrected soon after your purchase, it will usually get recovered soon as the rates get back to where they were soon plus increase a bit further! nowhere in the world is the rate of growth as high as india in real estate! the rate at which the population is increasing, it does't seem like a balloon which is about to burst. the fully developed urban areas will keep on getting costlier and newer development in underdeveloped areas will also keep on happening!

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
I dont see why people are surprised. It is part of a piece of land. It is covered, hence there is a cost to it, because under the development rules, it is covered under the FSI (Floor space index) or such. Basically you are limited by urban planning laws in how much space you can build up.

Let's not forget in those parts, even a room costs you a few crores. So a car parking costing 1 crore is perfectly normal - they could've built up another flat in that FSI of a few parkings and sold that for crores, no?. We are not talking of a tier-III city, but of the primest of prime real estate in India. Every square foot of it is more precious than gold

@GTO - imagine a santro inside such a garage!
Slight correction there. Parking space do not consume FSI. stilt parking space are usually sold as covered parking as closed garages are usually found only in old buildings. and these stilt parkings do not utilize FSI. the builder charge for them alright as they have to recover money spent on making them and also they will try to sell each and every inch they can as they see the money recovered in a project in totality. even open parking spaces in building compounds are sold at good rates!

the irony here is, the same property will be really hard to sell if there is no parking space, irrespective of the location!

also I have seen mercs and Beemers parked in small societies in far away suburban areas which make you wonder the buying capacity of people living in such lesser known areas as usually we think if someone is doing good in life, he will usually shift to a posher area and society. and at the other end, I have also seen small hatches or honda city parked in top most societies in south mumbai (that means top most in india!), which are being discussed in this thread where flats usually cost above 40-50 crores easily so of course you can imagine the value of parking space there!

Last edited by magikrider : 17th November 2012 at 06:28.
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Old 17th November 2012, 14:27   #34
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Default Re: Car Parking costs a whopping Crore in Mumbai

In Pune, car parking are of different types - covered parking single (around 2 lacs), covered parking side by side (4 lacs), covered parking single long (around 3 lacs - you can park 2 hatch backs), covered parking single + open parking open, covered parking + open parking covered.

My God, so many ways in which builder sells the parking space though it is illegal to sell car parking space.

Imagine a person spending 70 to 80 lacs on flat and another 3 lacs on parking to get only a single long parking. Obviously, if he wants to purchase 2 vehicles, the parking space will govern the decision and he might not even buy a sedan.

A related thread:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ting-cars.html (Parking lot space - A major decision factor in short listing cars?)
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Old 18th November 2012, 14:54   #35
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Default Re: Car Parking costs a whopping Crore in Mumbai

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Originally Posted by Simhi View Post
In Pune, car parking are of different types - covered parking single (around 2 lacs), covered parking side by side (4 lacs), covered parking single long (around 3 lacs - you can park 2 hatch backs), covered parking single + open parking open, covered parking + open parking covered.

My God, so many ways in which builder sells the parking space though it is illegal to sell car parking space.

Imagine a person spending 70 to 80 lacs on flat and another 3 lacs on parking to get only a single long parking. Obviously, if he wants to purchase 2 vehicles, the parking space will govern the decision and he might not even buy a sedan.

A related thread:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ting-cars.html (Parking lot space - A major decision factor in short listing cars?)
Good! If one cannot afford parking, then one must not buy more cars. What's the harm in that? Or is it that all Indians are entitled free parking like free air, so that they can buy as many cars as they wish?
Nothing illegal in buying parking spaces, helps rationalize irrational buying decisions made otherwise.
Supreme court can go on making illogical statements, going way out of its intended role as the country's premier court, however that needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.
Has the builder not paid for aquiring the land? If he didnt provide parking, couldnt he have built more houses/apartments and made more money? What is the harm if he sells the parking lots in a fair manner?
After all once housing societies are formed most societies auction, sell or rent out parking spots, so how different is this from what the builder does?
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Old 20th November 2012, 00:46   #36
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Default Re: Car Parking costs a whopping Crore in Mumbai

Glad to see so many Real Estate "Bulls" on the forum. Some excellent points made as well.

Hope we are not digressing too much.

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Originally Posted by invidious View Post
People have been talking about this bubble bursting for a while now. There is some minor correction but even a 10% drop sees a slew of buyers picking it up, thereby once again driving the price up.

.........None of this is going to happen.
Let me ask you this. Is your income or the income of the folks around you doubling every year? I am no economist and I am not even going to pretend like have a profound understanding of the subject. I do however fail to understand how property prices will continue to rise without a similar increment in the population's (avg.) earnings.

And no; I do not buy the argument that black money alone will be the "saviour". If that were the case and property prices are not affected by the general macro economic scene in the country; why was there a dip in prices around 2008 - 09? Was black money not there? Salaries stagnated; people took pay cuts or worse.... were out of a job. IT / ITeS and financial sectors were badly hit. Whatever the drop (20% or whatever; can be argued); why did it happen?

Let us also remember what did it all start with - The Lehman Bros. fiasco. Now what could a company located thousands of miles away possibly affect the Indian way of life; correct?

Now look at the current scenario. Greece, Spain, the EU in general; whats your take on their situation today? I work for an HR firm (US based) and can tell you that the situation is the US is far from rosy (American Airlines for example).

And no; I am not predicting or favoring this doomsday (I am one of those dependant on USA for kharcha paani) and I am not typing this with dreams of a huge villa in my eyes. I am a bit scared. I actually hope that this continues - people are buying and selling and the economy overall is in great shape.

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Originally Posted by download2live View Post
Maybe you are not aware of Black money.

Mark my words.
The property prices will only go up.
And morals of people will only go down.
See no evil; hear no evil; 'coz i have no evil

Agree with you on the morality front. But we cant just say "black money" and let that be the end of conversation IMO.

These brokers / builders / investors etc ultimatly would need to sell to and end user. Someone who has the paying capacity (& will power) for a 1.5 cr pigeon hole. How many houses do you think would be ready for possession around 2014 - 2015 in NCR region alone? I am seeing quite a few job cuts in some pretty massive organizations (all 1st hand info; no speculation). To name a few - WNS is "rationalizing" their staffing needs; Barclays, RBS, Steria (my ex employer) and many more. Completely my opinion; but we are about to witness the making of a quite a few ghost towns.

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Originally Posted by devil_klm View Post
Do you think the real estate brokers and mafia will allow this to happen in India?? As per my understanding the prices went down a max up to 20% during recession in 2008-09.

.........We are slightly moving away from our topic of car parking charges
20% as compared to what? Month on month? Year on Year? 5 year's average? By various such analytics; I can talk about deals that make 20% look like loose change (2008 - Sohna road area in gurgaon). 2007 - 2009 was a FANTASTIC period for buying property. heck; right up till 2011 people are seeing good returns.

Do check out the resale rates of under construction projects. And I do agree I have gone really off topic.

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Originally Posted by magikrider View Post
The real estate scene in india is such that there is a very rare possibility of someone making loss by investing in property, be it flats, office space, shops or land! if you have patience and are ready to stay invested for a few years, you are bound to make good profit!
Excellent point! Totally agree. In the long run; Real Estate will give you good returns. The problem is with people "flipping" much too often and expecting huge returns in a matter of (literally) days. This is a clear sign of a bubble.

Apologies for the long post.

Some more interesting reads:

Goodbye, urban oasis: The end of the “gated community” dream | Firstpost

What our Union minister of Housing thinks - Vacant houses implies housing bubble can burst any time: Maken | Firstpost

There are some positive thinkers too - http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/mar...la_777078.html

Property sales soften in Q1 of FY 13 - The Economic Times

Laughable rental yields - Property investment: Cities in which you can buy a house & where it's more cost-effective to rent - The Economic Times

You sure of that rate cut from RBI? - India Inflation Rate

News from Spain. Want to be a resident? - Spain to offer residency to foreign house buyers - The Economic Times

Cheers!

Last edited by GTO : 22nd November 2012 at 09:46. Reason: Please do NOT cut-copy-paste from other softwares, as it leads to a formatting error
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Old 20th November 2012, 20:39   #37
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Default Re: Car Parking costs a whopping Crore in Mumbai

I stay at Kandivli.
In my building open parking is offered for free. We need to pay Rs.150 per month to park inside the premises. However there are too many cars now and so they have decided to give parking on an alternate basis, as in 6 months keep your car outside and 6 months inside. But our building is inside a big lane with a dead-end (only 4 bldgs in the lane) so the lane is pretty empty and most of the people decided to park their cars outside.

Covered parking was offered for about 2 lacs or maybe less in 2004-05 but now it costs about 7 lacs in my building.

When we checked out a new building we were told that you have to buy atleast 1 parking compulsorily. It costs 5 lacs and parking is covered, mostly in the podium or few enclosed spaces. This is a multi level parking. The flats cost 1.5 cr to 4cr.

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Old 21st November 2012, 13:33   #38
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Default Re: Car Parking costs a whopping Crore in Mumbai

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Originally Posted by Altocumulus View Post
There are 3 options. Open Parking - 3.75L, Stacked Parking Tier1 - 3.5L and Tier2 - 2.5L. Also you cannot buy more than one space.
Bengal DCL is coming up with a project "Sampurna" and have quoted similar numbers for Parking Space. People are buying the parking space and renting it out seems more profitable.
Needless to say, the trend is already here in Kolkata. :(

Last edited by planet_rocker : 21st November 2012 at 13:36.
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Old 21st November 2012, 19:07   #39
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Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad View Post
Glad to see so many Real Estate "Bulls" on the forum. Some excellent points made as well.

Hope we are not digressing too much.



Let me ask you this. Is your income or the income of the folks around you doubling every year? I am no economist and I am not even going to pretend like have a profound understanding of the subject. I do however fail to understand how property prices will continue to rise without a similar increment in the population's (avg.) earnings.

And no; I do not buy the argument that black money alone will be the "saviour". If that were the case and property prices are not affected by the general macro economic scene in the country; why was there a dip in prices around 2008 - 09? Was black money not there? Salaries stagnated; people took pay cuts or worse.... were out of a job. IT / ITeS and financial sectors were badly hit. Whatever the drop (20% or whatever; can be argued); why did it happen?

Let us also remember what did it all start with - The Lehman Bros. fiasco. Now what could a company located thousands of miles away possibly affect the Indian way of life; correct?

Now look at the current scenario. Greece, Spain, the EU in general; whats your take on their situation today? I work for an HR firm (US based) and can tell you that the situation is the US is far from rosy (American Airlines for example).

And no; I am not predicting or favoring this doomsday (I am one of those dependant on USA for kharcha paani) and I am not typing this with dreams of a huge villa in my eyes. I am a bit scared. I actually hope that this continues - people are buying and selling and the economy overall is in great shape.
Is the income doubling - of course not. Is the the economy growing - yes it is. The continued growth of India's economy and the migration to urban areas continues unabated.

Now do the people who migrate here on a package of say Rs. 8-10 lakh a year buy a home? No - but they do need to live somewhere. They invariably rent an apartment for about 20-30k if single and if it is a double income family then they spend as much as 50k.

This helps those who have bought the apartments. And the guys who are on salaries eventually do move up the corporate ladder and buy property.

Portugal, Greece, Spain and Southern Europe has a totally different set of issues. They economies are shrinking, unemployment is high and they have a rapidly greying population which means they find their own resources stretched. USA in insulated from the greying population because of its more open immigration policy.

Can the markets crash? Of course they can. Is it likely? Nope. Corrections happen but crashes are pretty rare.

My concern is the lack of firefighting equipment in these new highrises. Another big concern is water.
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Old 21st November 2012, 19:20   #40
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Default Re: Car Parking costs a whopping Crore in Mumbai

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Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad View Post
why was there a dip in prices around 2008 - 09? Was black money not there? Salaries stagnated; people took pay cuts or worse.... were out of a job. IT / ITeS and financial sectors were badly hit. Whatever the drop (20% or whatever; can be argued); why did it happen?
Hmmm. Really?
In Bangalore there was a "Stagnation" of prices. Not the drop.
The major builders sat (and are still sitting) on the inventory. And many people dug money out of now where and purchased flats.

There is a lot of money circulating outside the regular Bank channel.

Just like "Anakin Skywalker" you are underestimating the power of the Dark side of Force (read Black money).
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Old 21st November 2012, 19:48   #41
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Default Re: Car Parking costs a whopping Crore in Mumbai

Stay in Kandivali Mumbai

In our apartment complex (2009 vintage), all parking slots have been sold out (3.8 lacs for single and 7 lacs for 2 cars - dependent parking - 2009 rates)

Second cars to be parked outside the apartment complex. Guest parking too not allowed inside since society doesn't want to compromise on open spaces.

People are renting out their spaces and are asking for 7K per month! The parking outside is a bit unsafe - slum-dwellers, scratches, trees sap, bird ****.
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Old 21st November 2012, 20:41   #42
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Is the income doubling - of course not. Is the the economy growing - yes it is.
Really? I dont know much about this but many authorities on this subject tend to disagree with you.

GDP stats - http://www.tradingeconomics.com/india/gdp-growth

http://zeenews.india.com/business/ne...5-8_63291.html

http://www.economist.com/debate/overview/238

There really is a ton of material on this. But I am sure you get my drift.

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Originally Posted by invidious View Post
Now do the people who migrate here on a package of say Rs. 8-10 lakh a year buy a home? No - but they do need to live somewhere. They invariably rent an apartment for about 20-30k if single and if it is a double income family then they spend as much as 50k.

This helps those who have bought the apartments. And the guys who are on salaries eventually do move up the corporate ladder and buy property.
Are we saying that 8 - 10 lac is an "average" annual income for even urban India? How about the chap who makes 5; or lower? What % of population (again; urban only) makes 10+ lacs per annum?

Living on rent is always an option; and IMO very cost effective too. If you compare rental incomes corresponding to the market value of the house; the returns are just pathetic. Anyone who has bought the house for "rental yields" alone (domestic at least; not sure of commercial here) would be so much better off investing that money elsewhere and earn handsome returns (long term investment in equity?).

Example - A 3 BHK flat in Gurgaon sec 50 something today costs 1.2 crores easy (maybe more). How much is the rent; around 20k + maintenance. Annual income (for the landlord) = 20k*12 = 240000. Return on investment (before tax) = 240000/12000000 = 2%. This is much lower than even your bank FD.

Pray tell; on what logic will the prices grow by 2 fold from here on fwd year on year? Appreciation I can understand; but such appreciation can only be atrificial and not sustainable forever.

Even if we say that there will be a correction; and let that be a "time correction"; it wont tide over quite so soon. This inflated price has to at some point in time talk to the country's economic realities...... black, white, green or red money notwithstanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by invidious View Post
Portugal, Greece, Spain and Southern Europe has a totally different set of issues. They economies are shrinking, unemployment is high and they have a rapidly greying population which means they find their own resources stretched. USA in insulated from the greying population because of its more open immigration policy.

Can the markets crash? Of course they can. Is it likely? Nope. Corrections happen but crashes are pretty rare.
Whatever be the reason for the EU issues (although; "rapidly greying population" aside; India very much has the remainder of the issues in common); the point is that they are there. A whole lot of businesses set up in India look towards these nations for sustainability. Anyone who is employed in such an organization (I am); might just see their wallets getting lighter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by invidious View Post
My concern is the lack of firefighting equipment in these new highrises. Another big concern is water.
+1000

Quote:
Originally Posted by download2live View Post
Hmmm. Really?
In Bangalore there was a "Stagnation" of prices. Not the drop.
The major builders sat (and are still sitting) on the inventory. And many people dug money out of now where and purchased flats.

There is a lot of money circulating outside the regular Bank channel.

Just like "Anakin Skywalker" you are underestimating the power of the Dark side of Force (read Black money).
In fact; Bangalore market even today is pretty stable. The sales charts are not on fire; but are showing a slow yet steady progress.

In general though; the time period that you speak of (2007 - 08); IMO builders could afford to sit on huge inventories as many a Govt. officials ensured the markets did not crash. Does the Govt have that kinda money to throw today? We just saw "Kingfisher" crash and burn. How easy would it have been for this populist machinery to throw cash; save the airline and come up with a tag line - "we made sure that thousands did not loose their jobs (irrespective of what it cost the ecnomy)".

Elections do not come cheap. The politicians; who mostly are heavily invested in the real estate market will be getting ready to liquidate there assets for the funds needed for upcoming elections. Who will be the 1st one to come under pressure ...... the builders. With even big players like DLF sitting on 20k + crore of debt (and selling off "non core" businesses left right center); how do you think the smaller ones would fare?

The markets may crash; see a slight correction or maybe the absurd surge continues. All that I have mentioned above is my assumption based on some facts and figures. Could be right; could be totally wrong. Lets see.

By the way; here's another star wars analogy for you.

Let us not be the Jedi council (investors) that chose to ignore the ever growing torment in Anakin (property prices); that led to him becoming the monstrous Vader - and all that they knew; was lost for decades.

May the force be with all of us.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 01:01   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad View Post
Really? I dont know much about this but many authorities on this subject tend to disagree with you.

GDP stats - http://www.tradingeconomics.com/india/gdp-growth

http://zeenews.india.com/business/ne...5-8_63291.html

http://www.economist.com/debate/overview/238

There really is a ton of material on this. But I am sure you get my drift.



Are we saying that 8 - 10 lac is an "average" annual income for even urban India? How about the chap who makes 5; or lower? What % of population (again; urban only) makes 10+ lacs per annum?

Living on rent is always an option; and IMO very cost effective too. If you compare rental incomes corresponding to the market value of the house; the returns are just pathetic. Anyone who has bought the house for "rental yields" alone (domestic at least; not sure of commercial here) would be so much better off investing that money elsewhere and earn handsome returns (long term investment in equity?).

Example - A 3 BHK flat in Gurgaon sec 50 something today costs 1.2 crores easy (maybe more). How much is the rent; around 20k + maintenance. Annual income (for the landlord) = 20k*12 = 240000. Return on investment (before tax) = 240000/12000000 = 2%. This is much lower than even your bank FD.

Pray tell; on what logic will the prices grow by 2 fold from here on fwd year on year? Appreciation I can understand; but such appreciation can only be atrificial and not sustainable forever.

Even if we say that there will be a correction; and let that be a "time correction"; it wont tide over quite so soon. This inflated price has to at some point in time talk to the country's economic realities...... black, white, green or red money notwithstanding.



Whatever be the reason for the EU issues (although; "rapidly greying population" aside; India very much has the remainder of the issues in common); the point is that they are there. A whole lot of businesses set up in India look towards these nations for sustainability. Anyone who is employed in such an organization (I am); might just see their wallets getting lighter.



+1000



In fact; Bangalore market even today is pretty stable. The sales charts are not on fire; but are showing a slow yet steady progress.

In general though; the time period that you speak of (2007 - 08); IMO builders could afford to sit on huge inventories as many a Govt. officials ensured the markets did not crash. Does the Govt have that kinda money to throw today? We just saw "Kingfisher" crash and burn. How easy would it have been for this populist machinery to throw cash; save the airline and come up with a tag line - "we made sure that thousands did not loose their jobs (irrespective of what it cost the ecnomy)".

Elections do not come cheap. The politicians; who mostly are heavily invested in the real estate market will be getting ready to liquidate there assets for the funds needed for upcoming elections. Who will be the 1st one to come under pressure ...... the builders. With even big players like DLF sitting on 20k + crore of debt (and selling off "non core" businesses left right center); how do you think the smaller ones would fare?

The markets may crash; see a slight correction or maybe the absurd surge continues. All that I have mentioned above is my assumption based on some facts and figures. Could be right; could be totally wrong. Lets see.

By the way; here's another star wars analogy for you.

Let us not be the Jedi council (investors) that chose to ignore the ever growing torment in Anakin (property prices); that led to him becoming the monstrous Vader - and all that they knew; was lost for decades.

May the force be with all of us.
Err - all of them seem to be in agreement, not contrary to what I said. India's growth has slowed on account of global cues and domestic political compulsions. But the economy is still growing, not shrinking. Most other countries would give an arm and a leg to grow at a "slow" 5.8%. This itself is a far cry from the Hindu Rate of growth during India's socialist years. The countries you compared are developed economies which are shrinking - their rate of growth hasn't slowed. They don't have growth and they don't seem to have an answer to the lack of growth.

No - 8-10 lakh is not an average annual income.

A person invests in an apartment not just for the rental yield but for the appreciation. Some people who have sold property have to buy property to avoid capital gain tax. Now if I bought a flat in far flung Wadala in Bombay for 6000 sq/foot in 2006 - 1000 sq feet for 60 lakhs - and gave it out on rent for 15,000 a month then. Right now, the property would be worth 18,000 sq/foot - 1.8 crore and I would be getting a rent of 40,000 a month.

I don't know about Gurgaon but I doubt the NCR suffers from a space crunch the way Bombay does.

And India does not suffer from the same economic problems as Southern Europe - we don't have 25% unemployment. We don't have ghost towns built in the boom years unoccupied. We don't have failing banks. It is a thoroughly different beast they are trying to tame. We are trying to get the horse to gain more speed. They are trying to find the horse.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 10:02   #44
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Default Re: Car Parking costs a whopping Crore in Mumbai

Quote:
Originally Posted by planet_rocker View Post
Bengal DCL is coming up with a project "Sampurna" and have quoted similar numbers for Parking Space. People are buying the parking space and renting it out seems more profitable.
Needless to say, the trend is already here in Kolkata. :(
This is exactly the project I was talking about
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Old 22nd November 2012, 11:05   #45
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Default Re: Car Parking costs a whopping Crore in Mumbai

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Originally Posted by Altocumulus View Post
This is exactly the project I was talking about
Seems like we are going to be neighbours in the next 3 years
The car parking is indeed very high for the project, roughly about 1/5th of the cost of a Flat (Dwitiya).

Cheers, take care and drive safe
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