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Old 22nd May 2013, 20:49   #76
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Default re: VW Polo 1.6L GT TDI coming EDIT: Now launched

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Originally Posted by PlatzdaTurbo View Post
Thats exactly what they will do. 106hp in a car with the 'GTD' monicker is almost an insult IMO..even if its a hatch. The GTD ,if it ever makes it here in the Polo avatar wont have anywhere south of 120bhp and im being conservative with the numbers. For now, Polo GT TDI it is.
Indeed. Usually the GTI's and GTD's are the top of the line models (minus the R range, of course). That means a lot more power, suspension upgrades, in the case of the Golf GTI, a trick differential, much better creature comforts and what not. Just plonking a 1.6 D will not make a Polo GTD. I agree, it is going to be a GT TDI (like the GT TSI).
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Old 22nd May 2013, 21:18   #77
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Default re: VW Polo 1.6L GT TDI coming EDIT: Now launched

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Originally Posted by karan561 View Post
In the meanwhile the POLO facelift is spied;

Attachment 1086527

Source: http://www.worldcarfans.com/11305215...ly-undisguised
Oh! That's a real disappointment. I hope VW lets the front design as it is now. This one somehow seems to take out the aggression and is more shy!
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Old 22nd May 2013, 21:25   #78
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Default re: VW Polo 1.6L GT TDI coming EDIT: Now launched

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Oh! That's a real disappointment. I hope VW lets the front design as it is now. This one somehow seems to take out the aggression and is more shy!


Also there are no Bumper/Fog lamps as this may be a lower model, should look better with the bumper lamps IMO.

Lets wait & watch

Last edited by karan561 : 22nd May 2013 at 21:26.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 09:51   #79
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Default re: VW Polo 1.6L GT TDI coming EDIT: Now launched

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Originally Posted by satyaanveshi View Post
Note that Honda developed its 1.2 i-VTEC specifically for the Indian market when the Jazz was launched, and that engine is now being used on the Brio and the Amaze.
You are mistaken my friend, 1.2 i-Vtec was NOT developed specially for the indian market.

Jazz/Fit existed before it came to indian market. and yes it existed with the 1.2 engine.

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 23rd May 2013 at 10:39. Reason: fixing quote
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Old 23rd May 2013, 10:55   #80
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Default re: VW Polo 1.6L GT TDI coming EDIT: Now launched

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Originally Posted by Parm View Post
You are mistaken my friend, 1.2 i-Vtec was NOT developed specially for the indian market. Jazz/Fit existed before it came to indian market. and yes it existed with the 1.2 engine.
The Jazz was launched in India 2009 and it was reported then that the 1.2 i-VTEC had been developed specifically for the Indian market. See Honda's official press release <http://goo.gl/QJYcr>

The Jazz/Fit did exist in other markets but with the 1.5 and 1.3 i-VTEC engines. The 1.2 was essentially developed for the Indian market. Subsequently, it was also launched as an option in some European countries on account of its lower emissions.

Last edited by satyaanveshi : 23rd May 2013 at 10:58. Reason: typo in link
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Old 24th May 2013, 00:51   #81
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Default re: VW Polo 1.6L GT TDI coming EDIT: Now launched

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Originally Posted by satyaanveshi View Post
The Jazz was launched in India 2009 and it was reported then that the 1.2 i-VTEC had been developed specifically for the Indian market. See Honda's official press release <http://goo.gl/QJYcr>

The Jazz/Fit did exist in other markets but with the 1.5 and 1.3 i-VTEC engines. The 1.2 was essentially developed for the Indian market. Subsequently, it was also launched as an option in some European countries on account of its lower emissions.
"On July 28, 2008, Honda UK announced that the second generation Jazz would be on sale from October 17, 2008. The new model will be sold with two new engine variants; a 90 PS 1.2-litre i-VTEC petrol capable of 55.4 miles per imperial gallon (5.10 L/100 km; 46.1 mpg-US) (combined) and with low CO2 emissions of 120 g/km; and a 100 PS 1.4-litre i-VTEC petrol engine capable of 53.3 miles per imperial gallon (5.30 L/100 km; 44.4 mpg-US) (combined) and with similarly low CO2 emissions of 123 g/km."

"Launched as Jazz in India in June 2009 with 26 per cent import content.[71] It is manufactured by Honda Siel Cars India Limited at its factory in Greater Noida. In India the car is powered by 1.2L i-vtec engine."[/i]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Fit
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Old 24th May 2013, 11:35   #82
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Default re: VW Polo 1.6L GT TDI coming EDIT: Now launched

Parm, your point is specifically addressed in the Honda press release I quoted.

<http://www.hondacarindia.com/mediaCenter/view_press_releases.aspx?pr_id=172>

"Honda Siel Cars India Ltd. will launch its latest model in India, the Jazz, with a 1.2 L i-VTEC engine which has been specially developed for the Indian Market. The 1.2L i-VTEC engine reflects the company's commitment towards India and its continued focus on bringing in the latest global technology into the country."

"Speaking on the occasion, Mr. Jnaneswar Sen, Vice President - Marketing, Honda Siel Cars India Ltd. said “The “Made for India” Jazz engine will provide the perfect balance between good fuel economy and performance. While the engine was developed specially for the Indian market, it has been successfully launched in UK due to its excellent performance.""

---
It was widely reported in the media at that time that the engine had been developed for India considering the excise benefits, but on seeing its performance during the testing phase, especially with respect to emissions, Honda's European subsidiaries also wanted it. It may have been launched in the UK a few months earlier, but the fact remains that it was developed for India.

Sorry for going

In any case, my point was that if Honda found value in slightly downsizing an existing engine to get excise benefits in India, it is unlikely that development costs alone are keeping VW from downsizing its existing 1.6 TDI to a 1.5 TDI for similar (in fact, slightly higher) excise benefits.

Last edited by satyaanveshi : 24th May 2013 at 11:49. Reason: formatting and conclusion
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Old 24th May 2013, 15:25   #83
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Default re: VW Polo 1.6L GT TDI coming EDIT: Now launched

If and when it gets launched, what kind of premium will it have over the TSI ? I reckon this should be priced similar to the TSI, anything more will make the car 10+ lakhs in Bangalore
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Old 24th May 2013, 18:47   #84
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Default re: VW Polo 1.6L GT TDI coming EDIT: Now launched

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Originally Posted by shashank.nk View Post
If and when it gets launched, what kind of premium will it have over the TSI ? I reckon this should be priced similar to the TSI, anything more will make the car 10+ lakhs in Bangalore
It is very likely to cross Rs. 10 lakh OTR in Bangalore.

For the sake of argument, let us assume the following:

Assumption #1: That the new GTD is identical to the existing 1.2 diesel highline except for the engine.

Assumption #2. That, as per VW's internal costing system, the 1.6 TDI engine and the 1.2 TDI engine have the same production cost.

Now, to maintain the same margin as the 1.2 highline, VW will have to increase the price so as to offset the higher excise. Given that the 1.2 diesel highline has an ex-showroom price of around Rs. 7.2 lakhs, the new GTD will have to be priced at least Rs. 8.2 lakh ex-showroom just to offset the higher excise and maintain the same margin. Add Karnataka road tax, insurance, handling, etc and the OTR is quite likely to cross Rs. 10 lakh.

The question is whether VW would be willing to accept a lower margin on the GTD than on the 1.2 highline. Sounds very unlikely. Historically, it appears that VW did accept lower margins on the erstwhile petrol 1.6 as compared to the petrol 1.2 highline. Such an approach might make sense if there was some other factor in the equation, such as an oversupply of 1.6 petrol engines or unutilized production capacity, which would generate higher profits overall even at lower per-unit margins.

From a pure pricing perspective, note that the Vento Highline has an ex-showroom price of Rs. 10 lakh. So somewhere around 8.5 lakh ex-showroom for a Polo 1.6 TDI highline may be a good bet. After all, it's just the Vento Highline with a smaller boot.

So somewhere between 8.2-8.5 lakhs ex-showroom is where I expect the GTD to be. Anything less than 8.2 would be a pleasant surprise.

If VW is desperate for volumes (and I doubt very much if that is the case), it should bring in the 1.5 TDI and jettison the 3-pot 1.2. That would enable lower prices (compared to the 1.6 TDI), decent margins and higher volumes.
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Old 24th May 2013, 19:52   #85
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Default re: VW Polo 1.6L GT TDI coming EDIT: Now launched

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Originally Posted by satyaanveshi View Post
If VW is desperate for volumes (and I doubt very much if that is the case), it should bring in the 1.5 TDI and jettison the 3-pot 1.2. That would enable lower prices (compared to the 1.6 TDI), decent margins and higher volumes.
I see quite a lot of references on this 1.5 engine. Does VW have a 1.5 TDI engine in their portfolio? My understanding is, they still donít have one now. I believe itís more logical for them to just use the reliable 1.6 TDI in the Polo and price it on the lines for 1.2 TSI DSG.
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Old 24th May 2013, 20:04   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satyaanveshi View Post

It is very likely to cross Rs. 10 lakh OTR in Bangalore.

For the sake of argument, let us assume the following:

Assumption #1: That the new GTD is identical to the existing 1.2 diesel highline except for the engine.

Assumption #2. That, as per VW's internal costing system, the 1.6 TDI engine and the 1.2 TDI engine have the same production cost.
From a pure pricing perspective, note that the Vento Highline has an ex-showroom price of Rs. 10 lakh. So somewhere around 8.5 lakh ex-showroom for a Polo 1.6 TDI highline may be a good bet. After all, it's just the Vento Highline with a smaller boot.

So somewhere between 8.2-8.5 lakhs ex-showroom is where I expect the GTD to be. Anything less than 8.2 would be a pleasant surprise
The assumptions made seem reasonable. If they price it at 8.2 ex showroom they can still keep the otr under 10 lakhs even in Bangalore.
Anything higher will certainly push the cost to 10+ lakhs. I hope that doesn't happen for the sake of us enthusiasts.
The additional excise duty of 15% can be recovered with a 1l otr above the regular 1.2tdi but that may leave no scope for margin so in real at least a 8.5lakhs ex showroom price looks reasonable.

Lets wait for the official launch and prices.
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Old 24th May 2013, 21:32   #87
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Default re: VW Polo 1.6L GT TDI coming EDIT: Now launched

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Originally Posted by Parm View Post
"On July 28, 2008, Honda UK announced that the second generation Jazz would be on sale from October 17, 2008. The new model will be sold with two new engine variants; a 90 PS 1.2-litre i-VTEC petrol capable of 55.4 miles per imperial gallon (5.10 L/100 km; 46.1 mpg-US) (combined) and with low CO2 emissions of 120 g/km; and a 100 PS 1.4-litre i-VTEC petrol engine capable of 53.3 miles per imperial gallon (5.30 L/100 km; 44.4 mpg-US) (combined) and with similarly low CO2 emissions of 123 g/km."

"Launched as Jazz in India in June 2009 with 26 per cent import content.[71] It is manufactured by Honda Siel Cars India Limited at its factory in Greater Noida. In India the car is powered by 1.2L i-vtec engine."[/i]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by satyaanveshi View Post
Parm, your point is specifically addressed in the Honda press release I quoted.

<http://www.hondacarindia.com/mediaCenter/view_press_releases.aspx?pr_id=172>

"Honda Siel Cars India Ltd. will launch its latest model in India, the Jazz, with a 1.2 L i-VTEC engine which has been specially developed for the Indian Market. The 1.2L i-VTEC engine reflects the company's commitment towards India and its continued focus on bringing in the latest global technology into the country."

"Speaking on the occasion, Mr. Jnaneswar Sen, Vice President - Marketing, Honda Siel Cars India Ltd. said “The “Made for India” Jazz engine will provide the perfect balance between good fuel economy and performance. While the engine was developed specially for the Indian market, it has been successfully launched in UK due to its excellent performance.""

---
It was widely reported in the media at that time that the engine had been developed for India considering the excise benefits, but on seeing its performance during the testing phase, especially with respect to emissions, Honda's European subsidiaries also wanted it. It may have been launched in the UK a few months earlier, but the fact remains that it was developed for India.

Sorry for going

In any case, my point was that if Honda found value in slightly downsizing an existing engine to get excise benefits in India, it is unlikely that development costs alone are keeping VW from downsizing its existing 1.6 TDI to a 1.5 TDI for similar (in fact, slightly higher) excise benefits.
There has been a 1.2 liter Jazz since 2003 both in i-dsi & later in i-VTEC froms.

But IIRC it was an approx 1240 cc engine which exceeded the 1200 cc limit. They made that minor change for the Brio

Last edited by Mpower : 25th May 2013 at 01:31.
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Old 25th May 2013, 12:19   #88
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Why is everyone so sure that this will be a 1.6L TDI manual ?

Why can it not be the same 1.2 - three cylinder with a higher bhp number, mated with a DSG ?

VW might have been pleasantly surprised with the response to their POLO GT TSI and might want to replicate the same by throwing an AT DSG DIESEL hatch (which would be a first in the category anyways) - priced around a lakh higher than the GT petrol ? It will still be cheaper than the cheapest diesel AT options in the country today (scorpio and verna) and might fill in the void left by the discontinued (since feb) i20 diesel AT ?
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Old 25th May 2013, 12:54   #89
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Default re: VW Polo 1.6L GT TDI coming EDIT: Now launched

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Originally Posted by salunkhe.vizz View Post
might fill in the void left by the discontinued (since feb) i20 diesel AT ?
really? when did that happen? they had a 100 bhp gamma series petrol with a crappy 4 speed CVT as far as I know.
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Old 25th May 2013, 13:23   #90
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Originally Posted by salunkhe.vizz View Post
Why is everyone so sure that this will be a 1.6L TDI manual ?

Why can it not be the same 1.2 - three cylinder with a higher bhp number, mated with a DSG ?
Lack of performance is not the only problem with current 3 cylinder TDI engine, it also fares bad in NVH part. 1.6 TDI is much much better in smoothness and power delivery characteristics, but it still is louder than competition.

I really doubt if they will offer a tdi dsg in Polo, even if they plan it, the prices will be higher than Vento TDI.
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