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Old 24th November 2012, 11:49   #16
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Default re: Ethanol blending to be made mandatory

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
India's sugarcane production is notoriously unstable - alternates between surplus & deficit. The sugar industry needs to be decontrolled (because Govt control on a commodity always results in such imbalances) first. Else, oil companies will have a tough time procuring ethanol.
Yes, this is a very important point. If we need to import ethanol too, after E-5 petrol is made mandatory, it defeats all purpose.

Also going by the above reports that ethanol blended petrol is not exactly good for cars, will this be another reason to move to diesel cars? Or is some bio-mix being contemplated for diesel cars too?
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Old 24th November 2012, 15:08   #17
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How does this affect bike engines? Are they capable of handling E5 or E10 petrol?

will Shell or any other private player sell E5 mandatorily or will it be optional for them?

Also does the E10 compatibility of honda cars mean that there will be none of the so called wear and tear i.e disadvantages of E10 petrol in Honda engines?
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Old 24th November 2012, 15:47   #18
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Default re: Ethanol blending to be made mandatory

Though this Ethanol news thingy is not new, this has ben discussed on the forum earlier as well. You guys can go through them if needed:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...hlight=Ethanol (Ethanol 5%, 10% blending)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...hlight=Ethanol (Ethanol in Petrol? Where can i get it?)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...hlight=Ethanol (Ethanol time-bomb ticking for cars)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...hlight=Ethanol (Water mixed Ethanol blending can be lethal for your car.)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...hlight=Ethanol (Adding Ethanol in Fuel)

Being an owner of a 1988 Padmini, i was a bit worried about the use of Ethanol in Old Cars. Then this topic also came up on PUG. here is a jist of the discussion:

Quote:
Joe...

At present I am witnessing the havoc that is caused by E Fuel on two stroke engines.
Seals,tubing and diaphragms are made of 'Buna' rubber , which starts disintegrating in the presence of ethanol.
Old gummed sediments in fuel areas start loosening up and traveling further where eventually they cause a blockage and engine failure.
(Reminds one of arteries blockage and cardiac arrest eh?)

Basically ethanol will have these effects:
1.Play hell with octane numbers.
2. Generate more heat
3.Acts as a solvent to loosen old deposits in fuel delivery equipment
4.Wrecks some types of tubing and seals
5.Ethanol turning into water in old fuels will cause starting problems and rusting of some components.

The above is not exhaustive but just off the cuff.I think unofficially we are on E5 fuel.Modern car engines can handle the 'E' in the fuel.
Older ones might have some hiccups.
The secret of success is not to top up your fuel tank if you dont plan to empty it within a fortnight. 10 litres at a time will do the trick.
And avoid filling stations than dont have too much of business. The fuel will have aged.
Partha - if it is a problem in case of cars, it is a problem for bikes as well - Google.

But, new cars will show less tantrums compared to old cars.

Last edited by planet_rocker : 24th November 2012 at 15:50.
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Old 4th December 2012, 12:06   #19
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Default Ethanol blend compulsory for petrol from Dec 2012

Came across a few articles that stated that the govt has made 5% ethanol blending in petrol compulsory starting dec 2012.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/5-...cember/1034949

http://www.carwale.com/news/9661-5-p...dec-2012-.html


Would this decrease the price of petrol?

Would it improve the RON rating of our petrol?

Currently regular unleaded is 91RON and premium just has some additives which dont really increase the RON rating. Does this mean we would actually be able to run our cars on 95RON petrol without much of a change in the petrol price?
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Old 4th December 2012, 12:32   #20
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Default Re: Ethanol blend compulsory for petrol from Dec 2012

This is a step in the right direction as there are many benefits.
The petroleum industry now looks very committed to the use of ethanol as fuel, as it is expected to benefit sugarcane farmers as well as the oil industry in the long run. Ethanol can also be produced from wheat, corn, beet, sweet sorghum etc. Ethanol is one of the best tools to fight vehicular pollution, contains 35% oxygen that helps complete combustion of fuel and thus reduces harmful tailpipe emissions. It also reduces particulate emissions that pose a health hazard.
source http://www.ethanolindia.net/
Read also http://www.ethanolindia.net/ethanol_govt.html for more info

Last edited by rajeev k : 4th December 2012 at 12:46.
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Old 4th December 2012, 12:56   #21
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Default Re: Ethanol blend compulsory for petrol from Dec 2012

Good move. In fact, if i remember correctly, Government of India had mandated 5% ethanol "doping" a long time back but the measures could not be implemented due to some internal issues.
This time around the Government looks to be determined to enforce this.
It will be good for motorists as engines can run on higher compression ratios, thus producing slightly better power characteristics. Also the octane rating of ethanol doped fuel is a bit higher between RON 94-95.
In Brazil it is mandatory for vehicles to run on ethanol, the Brazilians call it
E85 (for 85% etahnol blend) and E100 (100% ethanol blend)

The appended link below from Wiki throws more light on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Source: Wikipedia
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Old 4th December 2012, 14:05   #22
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Post re: Ethanol blending to be made mandatory

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Originally Posted by rajeev k View Post
This is a step in the right direction as there are many benefits.
The petroleum industry now looks very committed to the use of ethanol as fuel, as it is expected to benefit sugarcane farmers as well as the oil industry in the long run. Ethanol can also be produced from wheat, corn, beet, sweet sorghum etc. Ethanol is one of the best tools to fight vehicular pollution, contains 35% oxygen that helps complete combustion of fuel and thus reduces harmful tailpipe emissions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjab View Post
Good move. In fact, if i remember correctly, Government of India had mandated 5% ethanol "doping" a long time back but the measures could not be implemented due to some internal issues.
This time around the Government looks to be determined to enforce this.
It will be good for motorists as engines can run on higher compression ratios, thus producing slightly better power characteristics.
Agree whole-heartedly. IIRC, India's Ethanol Blending Programme (EBP) has been on the table since 2006/07 but the government has failed to mandate a policy during that time. I think they've even toyed with the idea of taking it up to 10 per cent and failed to implement.

Oil companies in the country have been playing truant thus far and have failed to achieve even 5 per cent. This announcement is surely a progressive policy decision that conforms to the way much of the world is going as fossil fuel options continue to shrink. Not to mention from a long term standpoint, ethanol blending can improve the country's energy security and reduce our carbon footprint in the years to come.

Last edited by Omtoatom : 4th December 2012 at 14:07.
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Old 4th December 2012, 14:15   #23
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Default re: Ethanol blending to be made mandatory

Ethanol blended in petrol? Commendable move. BUT

In any case, demand for petrol currently is flat and demand for diesel is skyrocketing. So this move is actually addressing the minor part of the problem.

I think there will soon be a "Ethanol will kill your engine" scare, and it will drive more people to buy diesel vehicles. Junta who depend on petrol powered commuta-bikes will bear the brunt of the cost of making their vehicle compatible with E5/E10.
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Old 4th December 2012, 14:26   #24
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Default Re: Ethanol blend compulsory for petrol from Dec 2012

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Originally Posted by arjab View Post
Also the octane rating of ethanol doped fuel is a bit higher between RON 94-95.
Is this true? If so then it's great news !

Please do report back findings that people may have this month after filling up, any difference in performance or FE?

Would the octane rating of Speed97 go up too?
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Old 4th December 2012, 16:52   #25
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Default re: Ethanol blending to be made mandatory

Can someone throw more light(or ethanol) here

I was under the impression that 5% ethanol became mandatory few years back and the fuel i was using for years already had 5% ethanol. I remember Honda calls their engines E10 and next step was to give 10% ethanol ratio.

So Are we not burning 5% ethanol currently ? since it is already december how do we know if the fuel i am using has ethanol or not ?
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Old 4th December 2012, 21:36   #26
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Default re: Ethanol blending to be made mandatory

It's a bloody stupid policy if the ethanol is bio-ethanol. If you are going to use a process which converts food into fuel, then price of food will go up. Even if you are going to use crops not fit for human consumption, that will anyway divert land away from food production & again raise food price. I have no issues if people want to produce/use it voluntarily - but mandating is plain stupid. It will reduce price of fuel for car owners and increase price of sugar for the guy who travels by cycle or walks.

Last edited by carboy : 4th December 2012 at 21:43.
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Old 4th December 2012, 23:44   #27
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Default re: Ethanol blending to be made mandatory

Talking about ethanol blend and its impact on modern cars, one issue is how is a "modern car" defined? Does it mean modern in design, or modern simply because it is being manufactured and sold currently?

Taking an example of the Alto, the F8D motor that it runs isn't exactly modern. AFAIK, it was designed way back in the 80s. What would be the impact of ethanol blend on this engine then? Can someone clarify this?
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Old 5th December 2012, 02:13   #28
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Default re: Ethanol blending to be made mandatory

Quote:
Originally Posted by swarnava.m View Post
Talking about ethanol blend and its impact on modern cars, one issue is how is a "modern car" defined? Does it mean modern in design, or modern simply because it is being manufactured and sold currently?

Taking an example of the Alto, the F8D motor that it runs isn't exactly modern. AFAIK, it was designed way back in the 80s. What would be the impact of ethanol blend on this engine then? Can someone clarify this?
AFAIK,Its the rubber components of the fuel system, like fuel line, O-rings etc that gets degraded faster on using the ethanol blended fuels.

In order to take advantage of the ethanol blended fuel, the ECU must be smart enough to identify which blended fuel is vehicle running on and change the parameters accordingly.
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Old 5th December 2012, 06:37   #29
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Default re: Ethanol blending to be made mandatory

I would say it is a double edged sword on one side it will increase food prices and lead to farmers reducing diversity of crop. But on the other hand it will force innovation in auto industry for India. We might start seeing better products rather than age old engines dumped on us.
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Old 5th December 2012, 08:15   #30
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Default re: Ethanol blending to be made mandatory

Dunno how effective it is going to be . A beer in chennai costs Rs. 110 minimum and imported fuel costs only 70 .
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