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Old 7th May 2013, 10:13   #556
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Default Re: Fiat's India strategy revealed. Abarth, Jeep, new Linea & Punto coming. More insi

15L on road is impossible for T-Jet+. Here's a logical view of why the news cannot be true:

- The Linea T-Jet being 'launched' now is actually the car just being re-manufactured. It is not a whole new design or anything. Fiat themselves have confirmed that the all-new Punto and Linea will come in 2014, not 2013.

- The add-ons for the Linea T-Jet+ are rain sensing wipers and automatic headlamps. Equipment list otherwise remains the same as the 2011 T-Jets. The only other difference is the increased ground clearance.

- Ex-showroom price for the T-Jet+ was 9.2L at Bangalore in 2011, and the on-road price I paid was 11L without any discounts. How can the same car's cost increase by 40%?

- No engine upgrades are in the pipeline. They are continuing the same 1.4 T-Jet engine with 115bhp, which means cost cannot increase due to a future engine version (such as MultiAir, etc).

- The fact that they are planning to introduce the T-Jet in dynamic trim suggests they are also interested in undercutting the competition (City/Vento) somewhere. Why would they launch a Dynamic version at 15L? Makes no sense when the Laura TSI / vRS boast of similar prices. Besides, who in India will buy a Fiat (which has little to no snob value) at 15L?

T-Jet+ might be priced similar to MultiJet Emotion Diesel due to the T-Jet engine being imported from Italy and having better engine internals, nothing significantly more than that. When I picked up the T-Jet+ at 11L, the MultiJet emotion cost was ~10.4L on road. Even if they retain that cost differential, my guess is they will price it anywhere around 11.5L on road citing import costs, considering MultiJet E costs ~11L now.

P.S - Launch date for the T-Jet had been confirmed as sometime in June, by the marketing head of Fiat who was present at the Fiat Caffe promotional event, which nkrishnap and I had attended 10 days ago.

Last edited by KarthikK : 7th May 2013 at 10:19.
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Old 7th May 2013, 10:39   #557
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Default Re: Fiat's India strategy revealed. Abarth, Jeep, new Linea & Punto coming. More insi

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Originally Posted by myavu View Post
I am in a fix. Earlier in this thread we discussed about T-jet launching in Dynamic and Emotion variant and now suddenly where the T-Jet and T-Jet + variants come from. Even in Fiat's website it is mentioned as Dynamic and Emotion
If at all there is a plus there will be a few differences between the normal T-jet and the plus if one goes by what it was previously - which was basically the alloys and all leather interior as the main points - everything else was the same barring these few differences.



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Originally Posted by KarthikK View Post
15L on road is impossible for T-Jet+.

T-Jet+ might be priced similar to MultiJet Emotion Diesel due to the T-Jet engine being imported from Italy and having better engine internals, nothing significantly more than that. When I picked up the T-Jet+ at 11L, the MultiJet emotion cost was ~10.4L on road. Even if they retain that cost differential, my guess is they will price it anywhere around 11.5L on road citing import costs, considering MultiJet E costs ~11L now.

P.S - Launch date for the T-Jet had been confirmed as sometime in June, by the marketing head of Fiat who was present at the Fiat Caffe promotional event, which nkrishnap and I had attended 10 days ago.
The T-jet was one of those rare cars ,if i recall correctly, where it was more expensive than its diesel counterpart. The emotion linea diesel ex price in Delhi is 9.55 , if they continue with that trend then this is the bracket we might be looking at.

June is in alignment with what i heard last as well , lets hope they stick to it.
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Old 7th May 2013, 14:05   #558
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Default Re: Fiat's India strategy revealed. Abarth, Jeep, new Linea & Punto coming. More insi

I have attached a scanned copy of the picture. I am hoping it is visible clearly. While i find myself in agreement with all of you, my disbelief is from the fact that how can Aadya Motors just pull up some number out of thin air and put it on their price list ? That too with detailed break up across both variants !
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Old 7th May 2013, 14:19   #559
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Default Re: Fiat's India strategy revealed. Abarth, Jeep, new Linea & Punto coming. More insi

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Originally Posted by vinay_ss View Post
I have attached a scanned copy of the picture. I am hoping it is visible clearly. While i find myself in agreement with all of you, my disbelief is from the fact that how can Aadya Motors just pull up some number out of thin air and put it on their price list ? That too with detailed break up across both variants !
The price is incorrect just confirmed from a very credible source. They are taking it up with Aadya to get it corrected. Though Aadya may have put up its older Tjet test drive vehicle for sale but definitely not at this price.

The new prices should be announced in the next 10 days. Fingers crossed.
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Old 7th May 2013, 16:04   #560
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Default Re: Fiat's India strategy revealed. Abarth, Jeep, new Linea & Punto coming. More insi

Now with the increased GC of 190mm, won't the T-Jet fall into the 30% excise bracket instead of the earlier 24% bracket, since its > 4m and engine capacity > 1.2L for petrol. And I am sure FIAT will be more than happy to pass on this increase onto the customers thereby pushing the price further up north.

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Old 7th May 2013, 22:00   #561
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Default Re: Fiat's India strategy revealed. Abarth, Jeep, new Linea & Punto coming. More insi

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Originally Posted by floyd.bell View Post
Now with the increased GC of 190mm, won't the T-Jet fall into the 30% excise bracket instead of the earlier 24% bracket, since its > 4m and engine capacity > 1.2L for petrol. And I am sure FIAT will be more than happy to pass on this increase onto the customers thereby pushing the price further up north.
Nope,the excise increase is for engines above 1500cc.To make it simple all those cars that had to pay 27% earlier and have GC above 170mm will pay 30%.
Also,a 6 % increase cannot hike the price by 3 lakhs (as it's not priced at 50 lakhs)
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Old 7th May 2013, 23:14   #562
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Originally Posted by nkrishnap View Post

The price is incorrect just confirmed from a very credible source. They are taking it up with Aadya to get it corrected. Though Aadya may have put up its older Tjet test drive vehicle for sale but definitely not at this price.

The new prices should be announced in the next 10 days. Fingers crossed.
As i also mentioned in another thread that linea tjet is coming in june and if fiat wants to get some success from it then the dynamic variant should be near polo tsi from price perspective
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Old 8th May 2013, 18:00   #563
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Default Re: Fiat's India strategy revealed. Abarth, Jeep, new Linea & Punto coming. More insi

Ideal prices for TJet needs to be around the current 1.4 Petrol prices. Even if it is around or anywhere near 1.3 MJD Active and Emotion variant prices there would be no takers since now there are a lot of options in Petrol car space when compared to 2011. Also everyone would remember the 2L discount offered by Fiat on older TJets. It is a difficult position to be for Fiat especially selling Linea and more so for TJet since only way to get things moving would to be offer TJET at NA 1.4 Linea prices (with some offers).

Also i am surprised that Fiat does not seem to give any offers (like those offered by VW/Skoda group for Ventos and Rapid's ) to celebrate their own distribution network or some other marketing jargon and create limited editions (Like Rapid Prestige) to get the sales moving again. Maybe Fiat is waiting to establish a complete setup before going on a Blitzkrieg (or) they want to start fresh with Jeeps and new Linea/Punto.

Last edited by Aceman82 : 8th May 2013 at 18:01.
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Old 9th May 2013, 08:02   #564
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Default Re: Fiat's India strategy revealed. Abarth, Jeep, new Linea & Punto coming. More insi

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Originally Posted by Aceman82 View Post
Ideal prices for TJet needs to be around the current 1.4 Petrol prices. Even if it is around or anywhere near 1.3 MJD Active and Emotion variant prices there would be no takers since now there are a lot of options in Petrol car space when compared to 2011. Also everyone would remember the 2L discount offered by Fiat on older TJets. It is a difficult position to be for Fiat especially selling Linea and more so for TJet since only way to get things moving would to be offer TJET at NA 1.4 Linea prices (with some offers).
Sorry to disagree, but doing a further price reduction on the T-Jet will only cheapen the image further. The NA Petrol Linea is priced at ~9L on-road Bangalore v/s 11L on-road price of the T-Jet. There is a clear 2L price difference for the T-Jet version, and I fully agree with the pricing if I look at the extras I am getting for that price. The T-Jet costs more than the MultiJet because of the imported engine and internals. They cater to different categories of buyers, and shouldn't be compared.

The T-Jet+ is not overpriced in any way, in fact it is the other competitors (sold at similar prices) like the City V MT or Rapid 1.6 MPI which are overpriced for the skimpy kit that they offer. The T-Jet at the same price offers better build quality, all 4 discs, bigger tyres and alloys, more features, full leather upholstery, and a turbo-petrol imported engine with superior driveability. If the Polo 1.2 TSI can be priced at 10L, there is no reason why Fiat cannot price a more-powerful, turbo-petrol sedan at 11L with a whole lot more goodies on offer, not to forget best-in-class braking and handling. There is nothing wrong with its pricing. Where Fiat suffers is in society's perception / snob value as regards to the aam aadmi. Of special mention is Fiat's shoddy or even non-existent marketing and advertising, which in no way helps in building awareness about their cars.

The discounts were on offer because of the huge leftover stocks piled up in the factory. Note that all these were ~1.5-2 year old cars. Any old stocks of cars will be dispatched the same way by other brands as well. That in no way means the new version should be priced at the discounted cost. Fiat will obviously not send the cash registers ringing with the T-Jet. Only the few enthusiasts who appreciate the value of the drive and overlook the Fiat image might go ahead and plonk their money in it, so I don't expect it to be a major hit with the masses anyway.

Last edited by KarthikK : 9th May 2013 at 08:04.
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Old 9th May 2013, 09:24   #565
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Default Re: Fiat's India strategy revealed. Abarth, Jeep, new Linea & Punto coming. More insi

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Originally Posted by KarthikK View Post
Sorry to disagree, but doing a further price reduction on the T-Jet will only cheapen the image further. The NA Petrol Linea is priced at ~9L on-road Bangalore v/s 11L on-road price of the T-Jet. There is a clear 2L price difference for the T-Jet version, and I fully agree with the pricing if I look at the extras I am getting for that price. The T-Jet costs more than the MultiJet because of the imported engine and internals. They cater to different categories of buyers, and shouldn't be compared.
I am not disputing on the technology or the features offered. The point remains that Original TJet was a commercial disaster at the price point which it was offered in since general buyers if looking for a petrol would go for a Honda City and not to mention that City S-AT might be the same cost as TJet Emotion. Those looking for a Diesel sedan would go for Rapid/Vento or Verna. This would only mean further losses with production lying idle and not to mention the new dealers would need much higher sales to keep the business viable.For the very little TJet buyers who are available again will have choice of DSG equipped Polo or will stick with Vento siblings in their diesel avatar. Selling one TJet per month per city would not be very appealing for either for Fiat or their dealers (Assuming even that one TJet gets sold per city). Everyone is Team-Bhp is a self proclaimed enthusiast but most of our team-bhp members (including myself) actual buying decisions are down right pedestrian .

Hence whether Fiat likes it or not they must sell their product at a substantial discount (they can very,very limited edition or something like that) to have any impact on the market. The Linea 1.3MJD is underpowered that it will not have much of an impact irrespective of discounts and hence selling TJet at 1.4 NA Linea prices might at-least fetch some sales. Sure they will take a hit in the bottomline but they would need to establish some sales presence before launching new products like new linea or puntos. If TJet is priced at 1.3 Emotion prices then again after a year or so their would be another clearance sale which will end up diluting brand image further.
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Old 9th May 2013, 09:43   #566
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Default Re: Fiat's India strategy revealed. Abarth, Jeep, new Linea & Punto coming. More insi

IMO, Fiat can't price the TJet too low just to increase the sales numbers and they shouldn't. They can't survive if the are not making profits. A scope what I strongly feel is lack of options to choose from Fiat stable. They are just trying to survive in India on behalf of just couple of models which is not gonna help them.

Its high time they introduce couple of more models in general segments. For instance one car placed below Punto and one car placed above Linea. A cheaper car will help them spread the brand awareness and higher segment car will help in brand building.

Right now situation is that even the current loyal Fiat car owners are looking elsewhere. If someone has a Punto, he will upgrade to Linea but when he wants to upgrade from Linea, he doesn't have any option and have to look elsewhere. One can't stick to Punto or Linea forever.


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Originally Posted by KarthikK View Post
If the Polo 1.2 TSI can be priced at 10L, there is no reason why Fiat cannot price a more-powerful, turbo-petrol sedan at 11L with a whole lot more goodies on offer
Are you comparing Ex-Showroom price of both or OTR? Polo is priced at 8L and if 11L is Ex-Showroom price of TJet, then its a huge difference, and secondly, both belong to different segments. I don't see any direct competition between these two. Offcourse, there will be very buyers who may consider both of these and pick one of them, but those numbers will be very-very less.

Last edited by tbppjpr : 9th May 2013 at 09:45.
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Old 9th May 2013, 11:31   #567
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Default Re: Fiat's India strategy revealed. Abarth, Jeep, new Linea & Punto coming. More insi

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Originally Posted by Aceman82 View Post
I am not disputing on the technology or the features offered. The point remains that Original TJet was a commercial disaster at the price point which it was offered in since general buyers if looking for a petrol would go for a Honda City and not to mention that City S-AT might be the same cost as TJet Emotion. Those looking for a Diesel sedan would go for Rapid/Vento or Verna.
My counter-point for that was the T-Jet wasn't a commercial disaster because of its pricing. The failure had more to do with Honda's upper hand in brand image, relatively better servicing reputation and Fiat's lack of advertising the capabilities of this car or engine (T-Jet). There was nothing wrong with the T-Jet's pricing as such, if you look at the product objectively. It was in fact quite reasonable.

Those looking for a diesel sedan would go for the Rapid/Vento, definitely agree. The 1.3 MultiJet Linea is a bit underpowered compared to the competition. They need to get that 1.6 MultiJet mill soon if they are to overcome that handicap. But people looking at a T-Jet would very well be aware of the petrol running costs. If there is some cross-shopping to happen, it will be between the City, T-Jet and Polo GT, rarely will it be between the T-Jet and MultiJet

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This would only mean further losses with production lying idle and not to mention the new dealers would need much higher sales to keep the business viable.For the very little TJet buyers who are available again will have choice of DSG equipped Polo or will stick with Vento siblings in their diesel avatar. Selling one TJet per month per city would not be very appealing for either for Fiat or their dealers (Assuming even that one TJet gets sold per city). Everyone is Team-Bhp is a self proclaimed enthusiast but most of our team-bhp members (including myself) actual buying decisions are down right pedestrian .
I wouldn't really call it a product for the masses, so they may not outright be worried about sales figures. I'm sure they will have thought about this before re-introducing it here. For the profits, they are already selling MultiJet engines like hot cakes, so I wouldn't really put my bet on them re-launching this car keeping profitability in mind. It may never succeed on sales charts.

Quote:
Hence whether Fiat likes it or not they must sell their product at a substantial discount (they can very,very limited edition or something like that) to have any impact on the market. The Linea 1.3MJD is underpowered that it will not have much of an impact irrespective of discounts and hence selling TJet at 1.4 NA Linea prices might at-least fetch some sales. Sure they will take a hit in the bottomline but they would need to establish some sales presence before launching new products like new linea or puntos. If TJet is priced at 1.3 Emotion prices then again after a year or so their would be another clearance sale which will end up diluting brand image further.
But why should we expect the T-Jet to be sold at the NA Linea's prices?? Isn't that being a little unfair - dragging it down to Etios/DZire category? It deserves more for what the package brings in its entirety. Let us not forget that the Linea is a 4.6m full blown sedan competing with the likes of the Civic, Cruze and Laura/Octavia in other markets. The Linea T-Jet (155bhp version of the same Indian sibling) is priced close to 17L in Brazil, Turkey and other markets where it is dominating the sales charts. Although detuned and localized, the same car is sold at 11L in India alongside the City and Vento, which is quite value-for-money here. Just for sales figures, why should they price a 11L car at 9L and humiliate themselves? That's a strong no-no. It is a premium offering and should remain premium in my opinion.

The 1.4NA Linea is a dud to drive, the engine and gearbox itself are outdated and frustrating for most people to use. I would say Fiat deserves the results that the NA version brought out on the sales charts. Next time, they better plan their product portfolio well before embarking on ambitious experiments like those *lol*.

I completely agree with your view of them not having enough products to woo customers. Both the Linea and Punto are getting a little long in the tooth now, and customers are getting bored of them. They need to refresh the product line-up soon. They seem to be targeting 2014 for their new car launches, so I guess we'll only need to wait and watch what happens then.

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IMO, Fiat can't price the TJet too low just to increase the sales numbers and they shouldn't. They can't survive if the are not making profits. A scope what I strongly feel is lack of options to choose from Fiat stable. They are just trying to survive in India on behalf of just couple of models which is not gonna help them.

Its high time they introduce couple of more models in general segments. For instance one car placed below Punto and one car placed above Linea. A cheaper car will help them spread the brand awareness and higher segment car will help in brand building.
+1 for refreshing their product range with new launches. They need to get working on that, and on marketing/advertising. They face a serious weakness in both these areas, in addition to their reputation for servicing network/experience which they are now trying to rectify by going independent.
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Right now situation is that even the current loyal Fiat car owners are looking elsewhere. If someone has a Punto, he will upgrade to Linea but when he wants to upgrade from Linea, he doesn't have any option and have to look elsewhere. One can't stick to Punto or Linea forever.
how about a BMW 320D? Just kidding, hehe.

Quote:
Are you comparing Ex-Showroom price of both or OTR? Polo is priced at 8L and if 11L is Ex-Showroom price of TJet, then its a huge difference, and secondly, both belong to different segments. I don't see any direct competition between these two.

Offcourse, there will be very buyers who may consider both of these and pick one of them, but those numbers will be very-very less.
Both are on-road prices in Bangalore. Polo GT TSI retails at 9.8L or something similar. The T-Jet was priced at 11L on-road before discounts. I just mentioned it to point out the similar nature of the cars, both are 'high-tech' turbo petrol engines targeted at enthusiasts looking for fun.

Last edited by KarthikK : 9th May 2013 at 11:43.
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Old 9th May 2013, 11:36   #568
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Heavy price tag will be a very bad news for people aspiring to own one, and eventually lead to frustration as it is evident here.

Why do we really bother about the price. Expensive? Don't buy it simple.

My point is, why can't we see it from a different angle. If a commuter segment like Skoda, Honda civic can create their image as a luxurious segment in India, why can't Fiat? This will take time, but will not be impossible.

I support their decision, since the new price tag is what the car deserves keeping other tin cans into consideration. Till date it was only matter of service issues, that also seems to be fading away.

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how about a BMW 320D? Just kidding, hehe.
Not funny enough buddy. Have you ever given it a thought? I have.

I know once my T-Jet is remapped then there is no option after 5-7 years other than getting a new loan equivalent to current home loan! .

Last edited by moralfibre : 9th May 2013 at 11:49. Reason: Back to back posts.
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Old 9th May 2013, 12:06   #569
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Default Re: Fiat's India strategy revealed. Abarth, Jeep, new Linea & Punto coming. More insi

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Heavy price tag will be a very bad news for people aspiring to own one, and eventually lead to frustration as it is evident here.
I really don't see anything wrong with the price, this is a car and it will cost something. People who understand what turbo charged petrol engine is, will buy this car. Only and only scope of improvement I feel is little more bumped up power.

Right now 1.4 TJet is rated at around 112 bhp which translates into just little over 90 bhp/ton and that is not aspiring enough. If they tweak the TJet engine and bump up the power to bring it around 130 bhp (real 100+ bhp), this TJet will start looking pretty competitive option which will be hard to ignore for someone considering car from this segment.

Or other option is they can launch two different versions of Linea with two differently rated TJet engines at different pricing.

There isn't any AT car in Fiat stable yet. Are you really serious Fiat?

Last edited by tbppjpr : 9th May 2013 at 12:11.
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Old 9th May 2013, 12:08   #570
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Default Re: Fiat's India strategy revealed. Abarth, Jeep, new Linea & Punto coming. More insi

In my opinion, if the TJet is a premium offering and Fiat wouldnt really bother about the profits they make, they should simply discard this model and move on.

I dont see the TJet to be a premium offering only for the reason that the regular petrol Linea is under powered. If the regular one was sufficiently powered, then TJet can be called as a premium offering.

So when it comes to Petrol Linea, many may see the only option as TJet or nothing (whether they are bothered about its sportiveness or not). Since TJet is reasonably expensive (Not all buyers would be enthusiasts), they may discard the Fiat option and look elsewhere.

Either get a adequately powered regular petrol engine or Fiat can simply forget about selling good number of petrol cars (TJet included)/making profits with petrol cars.
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