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Old 9th December 2012, 23:02   #31
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Default Re: TATA Vista Quadrajet 90

My feeling is that this variant is more to do with increasing the Vista's market spread, rather than any culture change at Tata offering driver-oriented vehicles all of a sudden.
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Old 9th December 2012, 23:36   #32
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Default Re: TATA Vista Quadrajet 90

This blatant bias against TATA is just unbelievable. It seems like nothing TATA can do is ever good enough.

While foreign "reputed" manufacturers cheap out by leaving out beadings, noise insulation, wheel well cladding, temperature gauges, rear windscreen washer/wipers, and in some cases, a fourth cylinder as well, it all seems to be acceptable. But TATA offers a fully loaded hatch (loaded to the gills, in fact), with space that rivals and in some cases, betters sedans, its not good enough.

While the "reputed" manufacturers with decades of manufacturing experience, lack the gumption to bring in any form of even minimal performance, in-spite of having the engineering breadth, depth and resources, and continue to cheap out by offering wimpy unexciting 1.2L engines (to take advantage of the excise benefit), TATA went ahead and offered the Safire 90. It was a bold move and showed commitment. They made a statement that our product portfolio will not be driven by our focus to cheap out and claim that excise benefit. That time people complained it was a crazy move, with rising cost of petrol. Now they offer a 90 bhp common rail diesel engine in a hatch, and people still have new problems.

Various kinds of problems in fact. Chassis not good enough to handle the power, it seems. Because, these people participate in the Dakar rally (or whatever its called) every year with their cars and know all about engine power and chassis dynamics.

And suddenly everyone is a marketing and product positioning expert. Too varied a portfolio it seems. Too many choices and too confusing for some people. I wonder how these people manage to order food from a menu in a restaurant, or an ice cream at Baskin Robbins.

How many posts do we have here about the razor sharp handling of the Ford Figo ?? I too probably have made one. And how many have actually pointed out what a horribly wimpy and disgraceful engine the 1.2 petrol is for that car ??? How many posts ?? Can ford not plonk the 1.4 petrol they used for the Ford Fiesta initially into the Figo for those who want it ??? Sure they can, but do they have the gumption to do it ??? NO. But no one criticizes Ford.

Similarly, no one had a problem, when Maruti Suzuki launched the Swift (way back in 2005, was it ???) with a modified 1.3L Esteem engine, when the Swift was launched in the rest of the world with the (then new) Suzuki 1.5L engine. No one complained when the Swift was offered with 60:40 split folding seats globally, but just a freaking bench seat in India. Everyone says, that the Swift has the required underpinnings for a fun car with its amazing handling, but no one complains that MUL in 7 yrs has not thought it worthwhile to offer ONE performance version of the Swift. But let TATA do it, and watch everyone crawl out the woodwork to puke all over the effort.

Okay, VW has the Polo 1.6 sport on offer for the enthusiast, apart from the 1.2. But what is the price differential between the Polo 1.2 and the 1.6 ? Now Tata offers the Quadrajet 90 bhp with other changes as well (new dash, wider tyres, improved suspension) and for a premium of what, just 20K is it?? And no, its still not good enough.

Fact of the matter is, for all the effort of the detractors trying to portray an unexciting image of TATA, TATA is the only manufacturer, willing to offer decent powered cars in their product portfolio, as an option for those who want it, AT an affordable and sensible price, for the average Joe.

The really silly part is .... in spite of the above, the detractors continue to project the image that TATA cars are only for the mileage conscious, ignoring the fact that they choose cars from other manufacturers, that offer less power, less space, and in some cases, fewer cylinders as well. They conveniently forget the fact that they chose a 1.2L or a 3 cylinder engine for the increased mileage, but have no problems criticizing TATA as a brand for the mileage conscious.

"Delusional" has been elevated to an all-new level.

Last edited by hell_rider : 10th December 2012 at 00:03.
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Old 10th December 2012, 00:37   #33
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Default Re: TATA Vista Quadrajet 90

I don't see a reason why vista should not sell more, it has got everything going for it, space, sturdiness, FE, lower price as well as no waiting period. Tata also comes with discounts on it from time to time.

Now at a small increase you can have 90 bhp negine option, and if they launch CR4 version to replace TDI , they can surely garner additional market share from swift.

I feel they should come out with a concerted strategy to overcome negative service image perception and offer a 3 year warranty like chevrolet while trying to improve reliability of parts.
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Old 10th December 2012, 00:44   #34
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Default Re: TATA Vista Quadrajet 90

Quote:
Originally Posted by hell_rider View Post
This blatant bias against TATA is just unbelievable. It seems like nothing TATA can do is ever good enough.

=============

The really silly part is .... in spite of the above, the detractors continue to project the image that TATA cars are only for the mileage conscious, ignoring the fact that they choose cars from other manufacturers, that offer less power, less space, and in some cases, fewer cylinders as well. They conveniently forget the fact that they chose a 1.2L or a 3 cylinder engine for the increased mileage, but have no problems criticizing TATA as a brand for the mileage conscious.

"Delusional" has been elevated to an all-new level.
Couldn't have put it in better words myself! Especially the comment about chassis not being able to handle this much power! I mean Really?

Last edited by khan_sultan : 11th December 2012 at 14:57. Reason: Edited to make the quoted post short. Causes inconvenience on mobile
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Old 10th December 2012, 09:33   #35
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Default Re: TATA Vista Quadrajet 90

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Originally Posted by arjab View Post
A Tata insider tells me that the suspension and its associated bushes have been tweaked to handle the extra power. Also the brakes have been worked upon with the brake booster and tandem master cylinder calibrations getting a relook for greater stopping power and lesser pedal effort.

Also, the source says that the Vista 90 will be wearing 185 section rubber (MANZA's tyre size) compared to the 75Ps's 175 section tyres. That should further provide stable handling.

Waiting for a test drive opportunity to see how good the 90 QJD turns out to be.
If the Vista90 indeed has all the changes that you have mentioned, then I'll trade in my Vista65 for it

@bblost, It seems that you have seen the car in person. Could you please comment if the above changes are indeed true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rock75 View Post

Now at a small increase you can have 90 bhp negine option, and if they launch CR4 version to replace TDI , they can surely garner additional market share from swift.

I feel they should come out with a concerted strategy to overcome negative service image perception and offer a 3 year warranty like chevrolet while trying to improve reliability of parts.
With the Qudra90 in the range Tata should replace Quadra75 by the CR4 engine, IMO. With such a small price difference between Quadra75 and Quadra90 most of the buyers would go for the higher powered engine, anyway. And if they manage to price the CR4 about 30-40K cheaper than the current Quadra75 prices, it'll be the most VFM diesel car in the segment.
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Old 10th December 2012, 09:48   #36
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Default Re: TATA Vista Quadrajet 90

Quote:
Originally Posted by hell_rider View Post
This blatant bias against TATA is just unbelievable. It seems like nothing TATA can do is ever good enough.
..............................................

"Delusional" has been elevated to an all-new level.
Credit where its due , the Vista 90 Hp is about 1.5 Lakhs cheaper than the Punto Sport and at the cost of Swift LDI making it a extreme VFM proportion.

But for the next part on why so many people especially owners of Tata cars are so dismissive of Tata is due to the hole which Tata themselves dug and are inside that ever-since. It is nice to say that "our product portfolio will not be driven by our focus to cheap out and claim that excise benefit." but the fact is that everything is engineered at a cost in Tata and during the life cycle of the product it shows up very badly in reliability.

For example take an example of my Indica as an example , it is a 2006 Feb make and in within its short lifecycle of around 6.5 years it power steering pump failed twice , fuel pump never worked without leaking (it went mutiple times to TVS lucas) , car's engine keeps losing horses so much that i wanted to give an FIR saying "horses lost from indica", Alternator failed once after getting serviced thrice, a lot of suspension components keeps failing (in-spite of 90% of driving inside ECR/IT highway) , Clutch failed twice, Brake disks were replaced twice, brake pads keeps failing very now and then, whenever it is cold the some belt making a screeching sound that even my CEO comes out of his cabin to check what is happening (on the bright side during cold days there is no need to use the horn) , AC compressor failed once ............etc. This was all in 6.5 years of ownership , 95% City driving mostly in the IT Highway or the ECR.

Now when someone says about the Tata Indica to anyone in my office , they only recollect the Tractor sound (or) Tractor running over a Dog sound . The Car keeps spontaneously disintegrating like a bio-degradable plastic or something. Adding insult to injury TASS service cost for Labor is very,very costly once extended warranty is over , not even mentioning resale value is so bad that it would fetch more money if car was given to scrap dealer in exchange for Dates .

Hence people are delusional regarding Tata Cars and nothing they ever do would be okay. Hence the blatant Bias against Tata. Can't help it till they do something remarkable .
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Old 10th December 2012, 10:29   #37
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Default Re: TATA Vista Quadrajet 90

Quote:
Originally Posted by hell_rider View Post
And suddenly everyone is a marketing and product positioning expert. Too varied a portfolio it seems. Too many choices and too confusing for some people.
I can understand your feelings when people go over-board to praise the so called 'reputed' manufacturers' anemic engines, and at the same time detract the Indian products. Many people go ga-ga over the brands like VW, Skoda, Honda, Ford, Hyundai etc even if they offer mediocre products.

But. But I am not going to agree on the claim that the innumerable options Tata provides for Indica as a proof of their commitment to the Indians. For me, it seems like their lack of confidence in their own products.

1. Why didn't they get rid of the name 'Indica' from Vista? Just to take advantage of the Indica brand name. Result? Spoiled an opportunity to have a new product, and also kept away many customers from buying a 'taxi' branded car!
2. Why Tata is using that tall ugly tail lamps in all their models starting from Nano to Aria? How many on earth are OK with such an ugly designed lamp? IMO, if they get rid get rid of those tail lamps from their cars and use some attractive designs, their cars will look a bit more attractive.
3. Their conversions from hatch to sedans (Indigo and Manza) are plain ugly and horrible, just lie the first gen DZire, IMO. But see what VW has done to Polo when designing Vento.
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Old 10th December 2012, 11:26   #38
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Default Re: TATA Vista Quadrajet 90

About handling, We have cars with far worse body roll and with much more power than 90 bhp. Examples include Scorpio,Xylo,Quanto,Safari,Grande etc.

Personally I would like more bhp in Vista not for sporty punch or more top speed but because same sedate cruising speed can be achieved now with LESS RPM and this will surely improve long range driving experience.
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Old 10th December 2012, 12:03   #39
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Default Re: TATA Vista Quadrajet 90

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Originally Posted by Aceman82 View Post

...... but the fact is that everything is engineered at a cost in Tata and during the life cycle of the product it shows up very badly in reliability.

For example take an example of my Indica as an example , it is a 2006 Feb make and in within its short lifecycle of around 6.5 years it power steering pump failed twice , fuel pump never worked without leaking (it went mutiple times to TVS lucas) , car's engine keeps losing horses so much that i wanted to give an FIR saying "horses lost from indica", Alternator failed once after getting serviced thrice, a lot of suspension components keeps failing (in-spite of 90% of driving inside ECR/IT highway) , Clutch failed twice, Brake disks were replaced twice, brake pads keeps failing very now and then, whenever it is cold the some belt making a screeching sound that even my CEO comes out of his cabin to check what is happening (on the bright side during cold days there is no need to use the horn) , AC compressor failed once ............etc. This was all in 6.5 years of ownership , 95% City driving mostly in the IT Highway or the ECR.

Now when someone says about the Tata Indica to anyone in my office , they only recollect the Tractor sound (or) Tractor running over a Dog sound . The Car keeps spontaneously disintegrating like a bio-degradable plastic or something. Adding insult to injury TASS service cost for Labor is very,very costly once extended warranty is over , not even mentioning resale value is so bad that it would fetch more money if car was given to scrap dealer in exchange for Dates .

Hence people are delusional regarding Tata Cars and nothing they ever do would be okay. Hence the blatant Bias against Tata. Can't help it till they do something remarkable .

Very humorous post! Indeed this is the case, one of my relatives is a regular at TATA service centre, I could relate what you have mentioned regarding Indica, though he is a high mileage driver, logging more than 50 k kms per year. This shouldn't be the case in a good product and it puts off customers. I don't think any other makes have so many issues.
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Old 10th December 2012, 13:01   #40
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Default Re: TATA Vista Quadrajet 90

An outstanding offering from TATA with this 90hp Vista, with whole lot of goodies, bells & whistles and at that great a price, it makes Fiat look silly with its pricing of the Punto 90hp. But all said and done, we here on Team BHP itself have a lot of users who have suffered and suffered badly at the hands of TATA Service stations, with there vehicles making a whole lot of frequent visits to the service stations.

I myself have suffered at the hands of TATA even when i had one of my juniors of my college working for that very workshop as the head of the chaps who work in that same workshop where i used to send my vehicle for service. Within 7500 odd Kms of my ownership of Manza (which btw is considered to be the most niggle free offering from TATA stable) i had to visit the service centre 4 times, once the gear box broke , the other time power steering pump and the nail in the coffin for my relationship with TATA was its turbo charger blowing up for no reason whatsoever during a daily routine drive to my home !!

Anyways, what happened with the car is off-topic and i'd rather keep that for some other thread to vent out my anger with TATA.

As far as this offering is concerned, i see one potential threats to TATA:

1. The Manza would be heavily under threat from this Vista, with the same engine, same state of tune & even similar interiors and humongous space inside the Vista, i wonder who would be going for a Manza now.

All said and done, this car has got it to set the roads as well as the sales charts on fire, but i have serious doubts on TATA's marketing capabilities as well as its Service stations to really pose any threat to the Swift or Figo or Polo with this Vista either.
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Old 10th December 2012, 13:44   #41
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Default Re: TATA Vista Quadrajet 90

@prodigy

The service centres are not to blame for this, i think, it's because of poor quality of parts. The service centre would be overburdened with work, if premature parts failing is a norm.

I wonder why is not Tata listening to feedback and doing something about it? No body wants to buy a new car and then keep on going to service centre for running repairs. You might as well buy a second hand at half the price if you have to keep visiting service centres.
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Old 10th December 2012, 14:31   #42
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Default Re: TATA Vista Quadrajet 90

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@prodigy

The service centres are not to blame for this, i think, it's because of poor quality of parts. The service centre would be overburdened with work, if premature parts failing is a norm.
Exactly, i was always made to feel un-welcome whenever my car broke down and almost every time i was told to bring back the car tomorrow or some other day. And every single time i had to resort to saying that the car is NOT moving to drive my point home to the people sitting over there. People working at those service stations have my full sympathies with them for the kind of work-load they witness
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Old 10th December 2012, 15:07   #43
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Default Re: TATA Vista Quadrajet 90

Quote:
Originally Posted by hell_rider View Post
This blatant bias against TATA is just unbelievable. It seems like nothing TATA can do is ever good enough.


Fact of the matter is, for all the effort of the detractors trying to portray an unexciting image of TATA, TATA is the only manufacturer, willing to offer decent powered cars in their product portfolio, as an option for those who want it, AT an affordable and sensible price, for the average Joe.

The really silly part is .... in spite of the above, the detractors continue to project the image that TATA cars are only for the mileage conscious, ignoring the fact that they choose cars from other manufacturers, that offer less power, less space, and in some cases, fewer cylinders as well. They conveniently forget the fact that they chose a 1.2L or a 3 cylinder engine for the increased mileage, but have no problems criticizing TATA as a brand for the mileage conscious.

"Delusional" has been elevated to an all-new level.
Hell Rider, thats an extremely well written post, and I understand your frustration at the bashing that Tata keeps getting.

A couple of questions for you though:

1) Who really says that Tata is a brand for the mileage conscious? I don't think thats really true, since there are some other cars that come to mind when I think mileage, for example, Beat diesel, Ford Fiesta diesel, Alto Petrol, Nano perhaps, but not really the Vista/Manza range

2) Why do you think that Tata, inspite of trying to be so responsive to the market and inspite of launching cars with more powerful engines at a very reasonable price point are unable to sell more Vistas v/s Swifts or Figos?

I mean I can understand that some folks bash the company no matter what and they are perhaps biased, but why would a potential car buyer not want to buy a more powerful car at a cheaper price from such a responsive manufacturer?

I think some introspection will help you arrive at the answer. Best of luck.
And once again, very well written article. Love your passionate approach.
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Old 10th December 2012, 15:46   #44
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Default Re: TATA Vista Quadrajet 90

Most of the posts mentioned here talk about the Indica failures. However the taxi industry still buys Manza and Indica and now more Vista's.

Yes, there is a failure rate in the Indica's, however if that was a deterrent, then why not try the Polo's/Fabia's/Swift's in the taxi segment and see what happens to them at 300000 kms. No one would dare.

The point of contention here is the Vista range. Specially the refresh. In the last 14 months, Tata has sold more than a lakh units of these. How many failure points have we found in the refresh version? Mine has done 19k in the last 11 months with absolutely zero issues. Tata service that we always read is a gamble, has improved.

Here is a true Indian company trying to continuously improve. What other manufacturers provide is a tried and tested mule in Japan/Germany/Korea. Not a true blue Indian company.

Fact of the matter is, no matter what Tata does, it has to face criticism. Let's rejoice guys. We actually have a hot hatch in hand at a price point no one can match. As far as the chasis is concerned, it does the duty on the Manza without any issues.

Last edited by gauravdgr8 : 10th December 2012 at 15:46. Reason: edited text
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Old 10th December 2012, 16:35   #45
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Default Re: TATA Vista Quadrajet 90

There might be too many variants of Tata cars but that need not put off prospective buyers.

Why does Tata lag behind : the very name.

My Indica did 2.8 lakh kilometre without engine overhaul. Never stranded on highway, and always gave me 19 plus mileage. If I am termed mileage conscious, let it be. I get what I pay for. What I look is affordable motoring, coupled with cheaper maintenance.

Having said that, Tata should differentiate the QJD 90 from regular Vista, both internally and externally.
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