Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 1st March 2013, 08:48   #1
Senior - BHPian
 
thoma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Kerala
Posts: 1,460
Thanked: 771 Times
Default Renault-Nissan K9K 1.5L Diesel, and its sales competition

The Renault Nissan K9K diesel engine is ramping up numbers fast and giving stiff competition to the Fiat 1.3 multijet engine. Says businessworld.in. Though a Nov 2012 article, there is some comparison info available. Excerpts from the article.

Quote:
Satoshi Matsutomi, vice-president of product planning at Nissan Motors India says The Renault Nissan Alliance (RNA) is planning to make investments for a new engine plant in India as there is demand for diesel cars here. RNA plans to sell over 200,000 cars by 2015. If it is able to do so, it will be the fastest ramp up in the history of Indian automobile manufacturing. The biggest question he faces is making the most-efficient diesel engine ever.
Quote:
In the race to make the most-efficient diesel engine are Fiat, RNA, Ford and Toyota. RNA’s K9K diesel engine is able to achieve greater fuel efficiency with recirculation of exhaust gas, which reduces the level of nitrogen oxide. The new engine, which is part of the family that was developed by Renault in 2000-01, has a special spray system to introduce fuel.
Quote:
At present, the Fiat 1.3 multijet powers 10 car models in India, and K9K seven. In terms of volumes, though, the Fiat engine runs 321,980 cars compared to 41,384 by the K9K. Maruti Suzuki, Tata Motors and General Motors are Fiat’s biggest customers.
With the addition of the Sail sisters from Chevrolet, the Multijet stands at 12 and the K9K at 8 including the Fluence.

Quote:
Toyota’s D4D engines also sell more than the K9K series, and run about 75,000 cars.
Quote:
In terms of exports, the K9K engine is fitted in nearly 90 per cent of the 35,900 vehicles that RNA exports to Europe.
Quote:
The Renault Nissan plant near Chennai has a capacity of 400,000 vehicles and a flexi-engine assembly line. While the engine is assembled in India, its parts come from Europe. Renault Nissan boasts of 85 per cent localisation of its products, and it is the engine line that has to be localised next. It is for this reason, say sources, that the company plans to invest in a Rs 4,000-crore vendor park. RNA has already invested Rs 4,500 crore in India for its plant that integrates with 130 vendors.
Quote:
The current ruler of the diesel engine roost, however, is Fiat. It produces diesel engines at its 250,000 per annum-capacity plant at Ranjangaon in a joint venture with Tata Motors.
Quote:
Globally, 31 car models, including Opel, Lancia, Ford and 12 of Fiat’s own brands, use the Fiat engine. Its only significant challenger is the K9K series of diesel engines, which power 35 cars models globally, including all Renault Nissan cars.
Quote:
“Daimler recognises the progress made by Renault, particularly in terms of powertrain reliability and considers the K9K engine as a benchmark in this field,” says a source from Renault, adding that Daimler will use the K9K engine in some of its products.
Quote:
Industry insiders say that when Carlos Ghosn, CEO of RNA, visited India last year, he said in an internal meeting with top management that “Renault has to make a living out of India”.
Quote:
In July this year, Ford India increased its engine capacity in Chennai by 36 per cent to 340,000 engines per year. Its new facility can manufacture an additional 80,000 diesel engines annually
Quote:
Ford India has invested $72 million (about Rs 388 crore at Rs 54 a dollar)in the Chennai plant. Ford India is building another plant with a capacity of 240,000 cars in Sanand, Gujarat, with an investment of Rs 4,000 crore.
Quote:
Hyundai Motor India, which imports its diesel engines from South Korea, is also trying to match the demand for diesel cars in India and recently cleared an investment of Rs 400 crore for a powertrain facility.
Quote:
Volkswagen, however, has not yet invested in an engine facility in India.
Quote:
General Motors, which also sold more than 100,000 cars in 2011-12, invested $230 million (about Rs 1,242 crore) in an engine plant as early as 2010. The plant at Talegaon has a capacity of 160,000 units per annum. This is the first flexi-engine plant in the GM world. It can produce both diesel and petrol engines
Quote:
Toyota, which has for long avoided investing in an engine facility because of the absence of a mass segment car, has finally changed plans. The success of the Etios sedan and hatchback (60,300 units sold in 2011-12) has prompted it to invest Rs 750 crore in a 240,000 units per annum engine plant in Bangalore. It is also spending another Rs 1,600 crore to increase its overall production capacity in India to 310,000 units per annum.
thoma is online now   (7) Thanks Reply With Quote

Old 1st March 2013, 12:19   #2
Senior - BHPian
 
nkrishnap's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,669
Thanked: 1,754 Times
Default re: Renault-Nissan K9K 1.5L Diesel, and its sales competition

K9K, although a very good engine and comparable to MJD, it has long long way to go in terms catching up with numbers.

As the author says, Maruti itself churns out so many MJD cars that itself will outrun all the K9K engined cars altogether.

But on the refinement, the MJD seems to be a bit better, but driveabilty the K9K is better.
nkrishnap is online now   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2013, 12:41   #3
Senior - BHPian
 
karan561's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 2,180
Thanked: 3,029 Times
Default re: Renault-Nissan K9K 1.5L Diesel, and its sales competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by nkrishnap View Post

But on the refinement, the MJD seems to be a bit better, but driveabilty the K9K is better.


Having owned 2 cars(now ex) from the MJD Stable;

Swift Ldi - 64,000 kms
Punto MJD - 81,000 kms


I can confirm your observation regarding drive-ability of the K9K (In my Scala) is way better than the 1.3s

^ and hence the FE is superior (as you dont need to be a great driver to get a good FE thanks to the low end being far more accessible in the K9K)

Regarding the refinement levels i think they may be just at par.

Last edited by karan561 : 1st March 2013 at 12:45.
karan561 is online now   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2013, 13:12   #4
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 36,435
Thanked: 28,502 Times
Default re: Renault-Nissan K9K 1.5L Diesel, and its sales competition

As long as Maruti sticks with the Fiat 1.3L MJD, there's no beating it in sheer numbers.

The Nissan-Renault 1.5L diesel offers better driveability & fuel-economy. That said, the 1.3L MJD is more technologically advanced, refined & has a better top-end too.

One reason for the Nissan 1.5L diesel to offer high fuel economy & performance is the light kerb weight of the Micra & Sunny; they are the lightest in their respective segments. Of course, the relatively heavier Duster is a decent performer, and enjoys great economy too.

Last edited by GTO : 1st March 2013 at 13:13.
GTO is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2013, 14:53   #5
Distinguished - BHPian
 
swiftnfurious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: BOM-CHN-BLR-KTM
Posts: 5,002
Thanked: 2,617 Times
Default Re: Renault-Nissan K9K 1.5L Diesel, and its sales competition

Are we talking about the refinement in high rpms? I found the refinement to be better in the K9K actually. And I believe that low noise comes even without any damping under the bonnet. I believe my Swift D makes more engine noise even with the damping in place, under the bonnet.
swiftnfurious is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2013, 16:51   #6
Senior - BHPian
 
karan561's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 2,180
Thanked: 3,029 Times
Default Re: Renault-Nissan K9K 1.5L Diesel, and its sales competition

Infact the Mercedes A & B Class too will be using the 1.5L K9K motor in 109 PS tune

Last edited by karan561 : 1st March 2013 at 16:52.
karan561 is online now   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2013, 17:12   #7
BHPian
 
shivasuma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 662
Thanked: 174 Times
Default Re: Renault-Nissan K9K 1.5L Diesel, and its sales competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Are we talking about the refinement in high rpms? I found the refinement to be better in the K9K actually. And I believe that low noise comes even without any damping under the bonnet. I believe my Swift D makes more engine noise even with the damping in place, under the bonnet.
The most refined small car engine is the hyundai's 1.4 CRDi. It comes without any damping under the hood and it still is pretty refined. Its also pretty high revving for a diesel. But when it comes to drivability, the K9K and TDCi are tops.

Last edited by shivasuma : 1st March 2013 at 17:23.
shivasuma is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2013, 18:56   #8
Senior - BHPian
 
aaggoswami's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Vadodara
Posts: 4,302
Thanked: 692 Times
Default Re: Renault-Nissan K9K 1.5L Diesel, and its sales competition

IMO, this is not a very fair comparison. The 1.5 ltr. K9K (1461cc) can be used in a wider variety of cars than the 1.3 (1248cc) of Fiat. 1.5 can be put in a smaller car like Micra i.e. same segment as Swift, but it cant be plonked into cars larger than Dzire or Ertiga. SX4 seems to have a perceived disadvantage due to small engine. The K9K can even power up the Civic sized car i.e. Fluence, but not so the 1.3. We can see this deficiency in the total cars utilizing K9K and Fiat SDE.

Also, in India, there are license issues or rather there were license issues. Else, the numbers would be even larger. The 90bhp format of fiat unit came in Maruti line up quite late. Also, if Vista was made available with the 90 bhp format earlier, it would have meant more numbers.

Moreover, in almost all modern diesels where we see high power output ( read VGT being used ) the lower end torque and overall driveability suffers. This is also true for K9K. 110 Duster and 85 duster are good example to prove that.

IMO, we cannot compare the two as application range due to engine displacement is different and there is reasonably larger displacement difference.
aaggoswami is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2013, 19:58   #9
Senior - BHPian
 
thoma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Kerala
Posts: 1,460
Thanked: 771 Times
Default Re: Renault-Nissan K9K 1.5L Diesel, and its sales competition

Not that it adds to the numbers much, but what engine is the Premier Rio running on? I guess it's the DDiS.

When almost everybody eyes India as an export hub, why exactly is Volkswagen thinking otherwise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Are we talking about the refinement in high rpms? I found the refinement to be better in the K9K actually. And I believe that low noise comes even without any damping under the bonnet. I believe my Swift D makes more engine noise even with the damping in place, under the bonnet.
I do not know about the refinement at high RPMs in a Swift, but I felt the DDiS to be good on overall refinement. There is a typical clatter for the K9K, similar to the one on the Ford's 1.4 TDCi. The sound is obvious if you hone your ears on to these engines out on the road. The Micra and the Logan/Verito are the noisiest.

I guess it is not the damping under the bonnet that makes the cabin silent, but the amount of damping material going on to the firewall. My Micra lets in a typical frequency of the clatter more than it is on the outside. A momentary clatter, which is different from the usual one, just when you press the a-pedal and just after releasing it. If the clatter was uniform, I wouldn't have minded.
thoma is online now   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2013, 20:45   #10
Distinguished - BHPian
 
swiftnfurious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: BOM-CHN-BLR-KTM
Posts: 5,002
Thanked: 2,617 Times
Default Re: Renault-Nissan K9K 1.5L Diesel, and its sales competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by thoma View Post
Not that it adds to the numbers much, but what engine is the Premier Rio running on? I guess it's the DDiS.
Its indeed 1.3 MJD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thoma View Post
The sound is obvious if you hone your ears on to these engines out on the road. The Micra and the Logan/Verito are the noisiest...
Now we are talking about the noise outside the car? Again, my experience with the K9K was with the Sunny TD. So I might have felt better difference.
swiftnfurious is online now   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2013, 08:42   #11
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: KL
Posts: 3,879
Thanked: 993 Times
Default Re: Renault-Nissan K9K 1.5L Diesel, and its sales competition

I found the Fiat 1.3MJD to be more refined than the K9K acoustically on the outside of the car (with the hood up) and also more refined while driving (new Swift vs Micra).

Eventhough the MJD felt good at higher RPM the K9K still is a solid performer with its two valve head and i wonder how the performance tables would be turned if the K9K had a better breathing 4 valve head like the MJD. Low end response would suffer but it will surely be a good performer at the top end eclipsing the MJD with its CC advantage.
Sankar is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2013, 20:18   #12
BHPian
 
Achyuth Vaibhav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vellore(TN,Ind)
Posts: 353
Thanked: 179 Times
Infractions: 0/1 (4)
Default Re: Renault-Nissan K9K 1.5L Diesel, and its sales competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
As long as Maruti sticks with the Fiat 1.3L MJD, there's no beating it in sheer numbers.

The Nissan-Renault 1.5L diesel offers better driveability & fuel-economy. That said, the 1.3L MJD is more technologically advanced, refined & has a better top-end too.

One reason for the Nissan 1.5L diesel to offer high fuel economy & performance is the light kerb weight of the Micra & Sunny; they are the lightest in their respective segments. Of course, the relatively heavier Duster is a decent performer, and enjoys great economy too.

.The MJD is known for the great top end and the K9KE424 is known for higher FE.But the most drivable of the lot is the K9K.Next comes the 1.4 and 1.5 TDCi.
Achyuth Vaibhav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2013, 00:26   #13
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dombivli
Posts: 1,958
Thanked: 526 Times
Default Re: Renault-Nissan K9K 1.5L Diesel, and its sales competition

A colleague of mine recently had the chance to drive his boss' Cruze. I purposely asked him about the experience, and he was disappointed in its pickup (he drives a Santro). "It's a diesel, after all!" I said to comfort him.

Then I remembered when I had taken a test drive of the Pulse. I was reluctant to try a diesel, and I remarked to the salesman about the pickup and acceleration offered by the petrol engines I had driven so far, and he assured me the Pulse would not fail me. True enough, the Pulse was a different experience. I actually didn't notice I was driving a diesel. After telling me it was a 1.5 ltr engine as compared to the 1.3 ones on most other cars, the executive also told me I could expect > 20 for the FE figures.

What remains to be seen is how RNA would try to ramp up the numbers. Fiat tried it by supplying the engine to other manufacturers, but now they are running the risk of being known for engines and not cars. If RNA adopts a similar strategy, will it work or will it not? And if RNA don't supply engines to other manufacturers, will they be able to grow their dominance?
honeybee is online now   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2013, 00:36   #14
Senior - BHPian
 
nkrishnap's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,669
Thanked: 1,754 Times
Default Re: Renault-Nissan K9K 1.5L Diesel, and its sales competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
What remains to be seen is how RNA would try to ramp up the numbers. Fiat tried it by supplying the engine to other manufacturers, but now they are running the risk of being known for engines and not cars. If RNA adopts a similar strategy, will it work or will it not? And if RNA don't supply engines to other manufacturers, will they be able to grow their dominance?
Suzuki - GM - Fiat alliance helped Fiat to get the numbers in terms of engines sold. However, the MJD engines are being sold/(manufactuered under license) to TATA, Maruti, Premier, GM.

Most of the other manufacturers like VW group, Toyota, Hyundai have their own diesel engines and Honda is coming up with their own.

So the question of who would be the other manufacturers to plonk the K9K engines apart from the Renault- Nissan Group?
nkrishnap is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 4th March 2013, 00:31   #15
Senior - BHPian
 
amit_mechengg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Pune
Posts: 2,233
Thanked: 633 Times
Default Re: Renault-Nissan K9K 1.5L Diesel, and its sales competition

I have always seen the K9K engine throwing out more smoke than any 1.3 MJD. Even with part throttle during pick ups there is massive smoke from sunny and micra.

1.3MJD is technologically more advance and i dont have the figures but it must be a cleaner engine than K9K any given day.

We are just discussing the 1.3MJD application in India. Worldwide its used so widely that K9K will have a immense tough job to catch with it.

Even the Ford KA in europe uses the 1,3 MJD.

Fiat always leads the race with the new MJD II and Multiair when it comes to application in small displacement cars.
amit_mechengg is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Nissan-Renault 1.5L DCi : Difference between the 68, 85 & 110 PS variants devarshi84 Technical Stuff 26 31st March 2014 14:46
Renault Pulse Diesel vs Nissan Micra DCi girishglg Hatchbacks 45 21st February 2014 11:35


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 17:43.

Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks