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Old 18th May 2006, 17:11   #16
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In that case, is there someting else that could have caused such a loss of control? It is important to get to the bottom of this and come to a conclusion one way or another. If this a real problem, then we need to know about it. If not, it is no use spreading unnecessary fear/concern about existing/future customers with EPS in their cars (just to clear the air - I am not a big fan of the NHC).

I would request the starter of the thread to come up with more information please.
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Old 19th May 2006, 08:45   #17
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Default Rationale..

Quote:
Originally Posted by vipul_singh
In that case, is there someting else that could have caused such a loss of control? It is important to get to the bottom of this and come to a conclusion one way or another. If this a real problem, then we need to know about it. If not, it is no use spreading unnecessary fear/concern about existing/future customers with EPS in their cars (just to clear the air - I am not a big fan of the NHC).

I would request the starter of the thread to come up with more information please.
I will try and get to the source of this.. But, the input i got was that he had "no control of the steering" and jammed the brakes, spun and stopped. He went to the honda showroom to find the root cause for the loss of control of the steering and based on the computer dump, they say a spike at 90kmph in the communication between the speedometer and the EPS. They did not confirm that this was the root cause of this (as the owner of the car felt it was something to do with the EPS), but did notice some abnormal activity between the two modules that i mentioned earlier. The reason for putting up this example and the earlier one (which was a merc) was that hey, these are software programs that do a lot of control (i am involved with the s/w industry myself) and there may be certain conditions (which often are hard to reproduce in order to test the s/w) glitches could happen.

I am not saying this could happen to all NHC or EPS driven vehicles, but wanted to elicit some feedback and make people aware that there is a rare chance that things like this could happen. Remember, at times in western countries where the likelyhood of they getting their pants sued off, they recall and modify parts. We have not seen too much of that happening in India, but that would happen if we share such examples and if one sees a pattern, a forum such as this could bring collective strength!!
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Old 19th May 2006, 10:03   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rangaraj
I will try and get to the source of this.. But, the input i got was that he had "no control of the steering" and jammed the brakes, spun and stopped.
Again, my friend, the LOSS OF CONTROL happens only when the steering gets a lot of boost (incidentally, it happens in my Dad's old Contessa because of an aftermarket Power steering fitment. The steering boost is more than whats needed and you can hardly drive the car. It's like the steering is not attached to anything.) In your friends case, it could not have happened because the program which controls the variable power boost should only switch it OFF when such a spike occurs. So it should be the reverse, where the steering gets too hard suddenly. Also, when the electric systems fail, it will only cut-off the power assistance, not the other way round. That's why it is technically called "Power assisted steering"..... someone correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rangaraj
(i am involved with the s/w industry myself) and there may be certain conditions (which often are hard to reproduce in order to test the s/w) glitches could happen.
Now, that reminds me of a joke about what will happen when Microsoft builds cars . On a serious note, all the software systems that go on the control system will be put through a very demanding testing cycle because unlike your application software, the results of a glitch on the controlling software can easily be fatal.... yes, mistakes do happen with a lot of other areas, like connectors, sensors etc, but hardly with the software itself. Above all, all these systems have a feature where it will shut down if an unexpected error occurs. That probably explains the problem with the Merc.

Do keep us posted on the developments....
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Old 19th May 2006, 12:23   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narasimha raju
So whether it is Electronic/Hydraulic, The controller of the power assist is software which decides how much power assist is required for a specific speed.
So it means power assistant is controlled by the software both for EPS and HPS. Is it?
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Old 19th May 2006, 17:27   #20
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I seriously doubt that the problem is with the control ssytem. I think it could be a possibility that the EPS stopped receiving comands from the controller and abnormally pumped in lot of assistance. But not getting why break is jammed!!! Is it because the power assist for steering and Power break is from the same source???
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Old 19th May 2006, 17:56   #21
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The whole information was "Overheard" my friends.. Hence I doubt such a episode could occur.

The steering could only become "heavier" if any assistance fails and not otherwise.

Also, the s/w for all these cars are thoroughly tested before launch. if there is such bugs, it speaks very bad of the s/w engineers..Indian or otherwise..

There could be so many "Maybe he did ...." hypotheses.. But lets refrain from scaring others.,
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Old 20th May 2006, 08:18   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headers
The whole information was "Overheard" my friends.. Hence I doubt such a episode could occur.
The guy has sued Honda... So if it is proved to be "overheard", will let you know.. ;-)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by headers
The steering could only become "heavier" if any assistance fails and not otherwise.

Also, the s/w for all these cars are thoroughly tested before launch. if there is such bugs, it speaks very bad of the s/w engineers..Indian or otherwise..

There could be so many "Maybe he did ...." hypotheses.. But lets refrain from scaring others.,
The idea of this forum is to inform & share experiences and not to scare..Indian auto manufacturers have not yet got the consumer society uppermost in their mind and recall cars on a voluntary basis.. Honda refused to share the information (when he went with his lawyer), they showed the owner when he first went in to seek an answer as to the cause of the problem. So i guess we will not know about it till the courts deem it fit to seek this information from Honda..
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Old 23rd May 2006, 15:33   #23
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Interestingly, I have had this steering problem of my own 2 times. Jammed my brakes hard, at medium speeds (once 30 kmph types, once while I was reversing from my garage). And all of a sudden steering became very hard, almost jammed. Thing were back to normal after a few seconds. I can't reproduce this problem though. I supect it had to do with braking hard, and I have tried . I did tell Whitefield Honda when it went for its 3rd service, but they didn't find or report any problem.

Anyone else had a similar experience? Mine is a 2005 CVT.
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Old 23rd May 2006, 16:12   #24
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I have heard of this problem from a friend who owned the old Honda City automatic. He lost complete control, was unable to steer away from the approaching divider and crashed into it. After that, the steering started working fine and the Honda engineers could not identify the problem. He drove the car for another 4 years after that without any problems.

It is terrifying to hear these things, gets your hair standing on all ends.

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Old 23rd May 2006, 16:43   #25
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Uhuh.... 3 similar incidents?!! I am pretty doubtful about this software all of a sudden.

Someone said that these softwares are thoroughly tested. Well, there is a theory in SE that goes like "in a real world system it is never possible to produce a 100% bug free code". This takes on from the formula that links to the no. of conditional branchings in a system to show how fast the various possible pathways grow with the no. of such conditions (its exponential). So one can not test all the pathways ever. Now some are never discovered because those paths are never taken. Some others show up all ofd a sudden when a complex set of parameters fall in place.

This honda problem could also be one such. Also, here is some food for thought. Suppose that the system is increasing the boost by controlling the mechanical parts. At the peak when it is supposed to start reducing the boost again some glitch causes the system to abort or reboot. What happens? Probably the mechanical devices keep increasing the boost... alongwith the increasing speed. Till it all reaches a dreadful climax. Of course the chances are that the speed starts dropping instead of going up at the point of fault (driver reduces the speed). So the software again starts from the begining or even reboots by that time and thus takes the things back in control.

I guess you got the drift...
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Old 23rd May 2006, 17:02   #26
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A naive Q ..
Do hydraulic PS's have software bits ? Or are they fully mechanical ?

I mean, assuming these are due to software glitches .. would this happen only to EPS and not to HPS ?
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Old 23rd May 2006, 18:43   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuvc
would this happen only to EPS and not to HPS ?
Iam too expecting an answer for the same. Someone mentioned earlier that for both EPS and HPS power assistant is controlled by software, in that case it can happen to both of them. Lets wait for more detail on this
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Old 23rd May 2006, 20:53   #28
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[quote=ajmatHonda's case is unusual. It has electronic power steering which means possible trouble. What ever happened to good old hydraulic and vaccum systems ![/QUOTE]


they probably sap to much power in an already power needing car..
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Old 24th May 2006, 12:09   #29
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Default Some pointers..

Here are pointers on technology behind steering..

http://www.musclecarclub.com/library...steering.shtml
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/tec...6/article.html

The pointer below talks about possible problems with improper ABS and steering column (for honda oddessey)

http://autorepair.about.com/library/...calls-383b.htm
http://www.lemonauto.com/complaints/...da_odyssey.htm

An interesting pointer to ABS..

http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/antilock.html
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