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Old 19th November 2007, 20:30   #151
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yah...!! My first preference goes to Endy.. Those Meaty wheel arches, huge tyres.. Oh.. thats one helluva package fot that price. My next preference goes to Mitsubishi Montero. But at that price, Montero is still a distant dream.
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Old 19th November 2007, 20:56   #152
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Originally Posted by BUSA View Post
Firstly petrols are gas guzzlers.

Secondly diesels have more torque, which is required while off road, not that the petrol is inadequate, but the diesel gives you that extra bit.
Already agreed on the FE front, but I am looking for other reasons.

Diesels have more torque... that's not the right statement. GV has more torque than Bolero/Gama(BSII) while being lighter than Bolero/Gama. The point is diesels have more torque at low rpms, which is very useful while offroading in slopes or while climbing down at very slow speeds. In petrol you may be forced to use brakes which is not good. But when you are climbing a hill, it pays to have more torque at higher rpms. That means petrol has advantage while offroading in inclines and climbing up. It is not for nothing that Gypsy is such a respected off-roader even with very low torque.

Higher torque helps hauling more people (say 7), but for a 5 seater SUV it doesn't need to be much higher than a sedan.

Can't Peteify, no that's not a valid reason in my book.
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Old 19th November 2007, 21:06   #153
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Quote:
Can't Peteify, no that's not a valid reason in my book
LOL Samurai, you can turbo it

You have been offroading since a few days in your GV, you surely know much more, so only draw back is the FE in the GV, else the car is just perfect.
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Old 19th November 2007, 21:14   #154
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Originally Posted by BUSA View Post
You have been offroading since a few days in your GV, you surely know much more, so only draw back is the FE in the GV, else the car is just perfect.
A few days doesn't make me an expert, that is why I am hoping to get better understanding by questioning the conventional logic of diesel SUV. I could be still wrong.
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Old 19th November 2007, 22:04   #155
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When you are stuck in slush, and want to pull out, high low rpm torque helps.
I had gotten stuck in gypsy on an incline. I had to rev the engine then slip clutch in 4L to get out. that adventure was followed by burning smell.
In case of high torque at lower rpm, I could have gotten out with low revs and limited slipping.

As for amount of torque, take a comparable 120bhp diesel, and you will see the diesel has more torque. This is a fact. Diesels have more torque for similar power figures.

As for comparing with bolero and gamma? GV has more torque than an indica too. Compare GV with an Endy, a safari or a tuscon, and you will see GV torque is not as much.
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Old 20th November 2007, 10:08   #156
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Quote:
and you will see GV torque is not as much.
I second that; Test-drove the GV with a cousin who is booking it (after reading Samurais ownership reports). I found the low end performance to have a darn sluggish side to it.
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Old 20th November 2007, 10:38   #157
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Default The parameters to be taken into consideration for Future SUV :

Guys..I will make it a tad simpler for u guys...Will get a template kinda thing posted here...U can just fill details onto the template...

SPECIFICATIONS :

Engine :
Power -
Torque -
Overall Fuel Mileage :
Suspension:
Steering System :
Transmission :
Manual(4,5,6 Speed)
Auto

FEATURES :

Trims & Seats
Numbers : 6 OR 7 OR 8 OR 9
Leather Trims:
Fabric :
Height Adjustement : Yes/No
Advanced Features :
Music System
CD Player :
High End System :
No. of Speakers :
Comfort & Convenience
AC :
Windows/Mirrors :
Utility Spaces :
Other Features :
Instrument Panel
Instrument Cluster :
Lights :
Information Displays :
Lighting
headlamps/tail lamps :
Interior lights :
Advanced Features :
Safety
Brakes :
ABS :
No. of Airbags :
Advanced Features :
Security
Central Lock :
Alarm features :
Advanced Features :
Other Advanced features
GPS :
Night Vision :
Cruise Control :
Others :
Styling
Exterior :
Interior :
Price (Ex-showroom ) :

Please fill in your suggestions!
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Old 20th November 2007, 10:53   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I second that; Test-drove the GV with a cousin who is booking it (after reading Samurais ownership reports). I found the low end performance to have a darn sluggish side to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post

As for amount of torque, take a comparable 120bhp diesel, and you will see the diesel has more torque. This is a fact. Diesels have more torque for similar power figures.

As for comparing with bolero and gamma? GV has more torque than an indica too. Compare GV with an Endy, a safari or a tuscon, and you will see GV torque is not as much.
JTD equipped GV diesel isn't too far away, is it? That should take care of the torque inadequacy. Of course, it'll probably be priced beyond the reach of most, what with Suzuki's current thinking being to produce the bigger Fiat diesels in Japan, not India.

Come to think of it, isn't it high time Tata and Mahindra upped their game and gave us a desi GV? They need to move beyond Safari and Scorpio. They are perhaps best equipped to give us an affordable desi GV. What say?
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Old 20th November 2007, 11:27   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The diesel powerplant will be better adapted to highway fuel adulteration than the petrol. SUV = Diesel = Character.
Does that hold for common rail diesel engines too? I heard they are more sensitive to fuel quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
When you are stuck in slush, and want to pull out, high low rpm torque helps.
I had gotten stuck in gypsy on an incline. I had to rev the engine then slip clutch in 4L to get out. that adventure was followed by burning smell.
In case of high torque at lower rpm, I could have gotten out with low revs and limited slipping.
This is what I want to understand. Obviously the petrol SUV will use 1st gear in this scenario so as to get maximum torque at slower speeds. What are the downsides of revving the petrol engine to higher rpms to get max torque at 1st gear? Why the burning smell, it can't be from the tyre slippage, is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
As for amount of torque, take a comparable 120bhp diesel, and you will see the diesel has more torque. This is a fact. Diesels have more torque for similar power figures.
I agree comparable diesels have more torque, the question is whether petrols have adequate torque.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
As for comparing with bolero and gamma? GV has more torque than an Indica too. Compare GV with an Endy, a safari or a tuscon, and you will see GV torque is not as much.
Why not compare with bolero and Gama, we are not comparing luxury or fit & finish. Besides, both are 7 seaters or more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I second that; Test-drove the GV with a cousin who is booking it (after reading Samurais ownership reports). I found the low end performance to have a darn sluggish side to it.
You are spoilt by a German diesel you own.

It is all coming back to the same thing. I never claimed petrol SUVs have loads of torque like diesel. My question simple, why are we judging SUVs by torque alone. If it has adequate torque, isn't that good enough?
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Old 20th November 2007, 11:38   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post

This is what I want to understand. Obviously the petrol SUV will use 1st gear in this scenario so as to get maximum torque at slower speeds. What are the downsides of revving the petrol engine to higher rpms to get max torque at 1st gear? Why the burning smell, it can't be from the tyre slippage, is it?
The scenario was something like this.
It was a very steep incline, and slushy. All 4 wheels were stuck.
In 4L, I gave little revs and tried to rock the car out. But engine would being to stall as it was deeply stuck. So I had to rev the engine and then slowly release the clutch. In the transition phase from full clutch to no clutch I could not simply rev and release the clutch it had to be done slowly.
The scenario was similar to driving a low power petrol on a steep incline tarred road, starting from first gear.
If you have more low end torque, you do not have to slip the clutch as much.

This scenario comes to play in non off road scenarios also. For example, once I had to get out of an underground parking lot in a NA indica. Due to the lack of space, I could not build up speed, so I was starting the incline at a very low speed, and engine would stall. So I had to build up revs and then slip the clutch to build speed on incline.

Even the maruti zen carb had that problem. If you were starting on a steep incline, you had to do clutch slippage.
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Old 20th November 2007, 11:48   #161
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Originally Posted by Torque-ative View Post
For me the perfect SUV needs to have the best of both worlds (City & OTR).


2. Not too Big (About the same external size, Length & Width of the NHC, as the LWB offered on most Indian SUV's are prone to being impailed on rocks or ridges & bulky in city traffic).
4. Huge GC at least 210 mm, with a high set seating position.
With the dimensions of a NHC, coupled with huge GC (necessitating a tall body), it's bound to be roller coaster of a ride through corners. It can never make a fun-to-drive machine on the roads.
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Old 21st November 2007, 10:04   #162
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Samurai, I agree with you that the Vitara is pretty much the best bet as far as the urban crawl, and the occasional OTR romp !! In the hands of a skilled driver 185 mm as compared to 210 mm is not that much of a disadvantage !! This revelation came when I had to cross a dry river bed, to curcumnavigate a truck pile up on the highway in an NHC & a CVT at that. As long as I kept one tyre on the obstacle the other on terra firma,..and didn't let any thing come in the direct path of the underbelly the car handled itself pretty brilliantly !

At the price point of 8 lacs a Suzuki Jimny if launched, could be possible,..but like I said earlier I guess I better dream on !!!
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Old 21st November 2007, 15:45   #163
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My take on Perfect SUV in India(by classic definitition of SUV).

1.Toyota Land Cruiser.
2.Mitsubishi Montero.
3.Ford Endeavor.
4.Mahindra Scorpio(to some extent).

I think following cars are called Crossovers and not SUVs.
1.Honda CR-V
2.Suzuki Grand Vitara
3.Hyundai Tuscan.

These are really meant for carrying large family which exibits more car like features than the off road beast charectors like SUVs.


Cheers
Anju
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Old 21st November 2007, 17:57   #164
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Originally Posted by Anju View Post
I think following cars are called Crossovers and not SUVs.
1.Honda CR-V
2.Suzuki Grand Vitara
3.Hyundai Tuscan.

These are really meant for carrying large family which exibits more car like features than the off road beast charectors like SUVs.
I am sorry, but your conclusion is wrong. All the 3 you mention in the second group are 5 seater SUVs, how are they meant for carrying large families? Secondly the Grand Vitara doesn't belong in the second group. It is more an off-roader than on-roader unlike the other two. Don't take my word, I may be biased as an owner, read any auto magazine review on the GV. It is the only one among the 3 that has differential locks, which is a must to be called a real off-roader.

Besides, your list is really incomplete since you left out Pajero.
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Old 21st November 2007, 18:08   #165
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Default The True SUV

How Can you leave this post without Pajero. Have you ever driven it? The Mother of all SUV's..........................
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