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Old 15th May 2015, 03:57   #976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
Jazz can easily command a premium of 50k more then elite I20.
All those bells and whistles like keyless entry etc which the elite i20 has are not a deal breaker when one is buying a car.
The Jazz even the older one simply has more space then even a Verna,Vento,Sx4,Linea.
The new one is even bigger has magic seats and bigger boot compared to all other hatchbacks.
So, it will command a premium not to mention the Honda badge.
This is not a market that is there for Honda to just wade in. They had the snobbish attitude previously with the Jazz and they eventually pulled it out (even though it is still a looker ).
Hyundai is on a roll with the i20 elite and it is the only hatch that can claim to stand up to the almighty Swift in sales.
Honda should price the Jazz on par with the i20 elite and reel in the customers. Believe me, it still would be a tough fight. The elite i20 is that good in interior quality.
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Old 15th May 2015, 09:33   #977
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Post re: The 2015 Honda Jazz (3rd-gen)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
Jazz can easily command a premium of 50k more then elite I20.
All those bells and whistles like keyless entry etc which the elite i20 has are not a deal breaker when one is buying a car.
The Jazz even the older one simply has more space then even a Verna,Vento,Sx4,Linea.
The new one is even bigger has magic seats and bigger boot compared to all other hatchbacks.
So, it will command a premium not to mention the Honda badge.
And can you explain why the Jazz can command a premium of 50k over the Elite i20? Came down from heavens, probably?

This kind of high-handed absurdity from Honda and elsewhere is why the car was not a major seller, in its last avatar (coupled with ridiculous prices, for the H badge). Keep up with it and it will probably meet the same fate.

And which feature has a higher chance of being used more frequently? People are folding 'UP' their rear seats drive magically (or) people walk into a car, push a button and drive on [with the key in the bag/pocket]?

The Elite i20 is a much matured car today and has everything the market wants. Look at its sales. Honda can only, at least momentarily, dream to match it. Hyundai is strongly progressing to be a high quality car. In the near future, it can surely also be a good drivers car. See how many members in this forum are vouching for the better-than-neautral handling of the Elite i20 on the highways..

Honda has its work cut out for the Jazz and I hope at least the manufacturer realizes this. The H is currently winning (and rightly so).
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Old 15th May 2015, 11:06   #978
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Default re: The 2015 Honda Jazz (3rd-gen)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazy View Post
I haven't driven the Elite i20, but if the steering is the same as older models, then Jazz's steering itself is worth atleast Rs 50K premium Honda might charge on Jazz over i20.
Even I haven't driven the Elite i20, but friends who have driven have confirmed that it is better than the last generation. It is still pretty light but not as bad as previous generation. Again, I haven't driven the old Jazz, but I have driven the new City (whose steering will be passed on to Jazz) and it is not all that great. It is decent - weighs up decently on speed, but not the most direct and precise unit. So, premium just for the steering is not going to make a cut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 599gto View Post
1. While I agree that the 2010 Jazz was a better car than the 2010 i20, it was comparatively expensive too. Plus the top-end i20 was more feature rich than the top-end Jazz, even the City for that matter.
Agree with you sir. When it comes to features, no comparison with Hyundai. City was the first car to beat Hyundai in feature-set. I am sure this Jazz is not going to do that. It will give a decent fight though. Coming to previous generation Jazz, the top-end looked bare-bones compared to top-end i20.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 599gto View Post
2. About the pre-Elite i20 being ugly, I think you are one of the very few to have that opinion, the i20 has always been a well proportioned, handsome car, in fact it was the Jazz with those bug like headlamps which lost points on looks for me, but that's what they say about looks, looks are subjective.
Even I am not a great fan of i20's front, but I would not call it ugly. I like the Active's front more. In fact, I hated the previous Jazz for looks. It was called funky and futuristic, but I found it buggy and unattractive. But the new Jazz is quite a looker for me. It was love at first sight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 599gto View Post
4. Check out the interiors of the Elite i20 in flesh once, and then compare it to those of the Jazz, hell you can go one segment higher and compare it to the new City's interiors and still the Hyundai would win hands down!
i20's interiors are good - Really Good. But I feel the City's interiors are not as bad as they are made out to be. The plastic is hard - I agree, but the switches and controls have very good quality and looks good to last long. Jazz will have similar quality and I am sure ergonomics will be spot on in Hondas. I definitely agree Hyundai's interior is better than a Honda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drsingh View Post
That is a good point. Also Honda doesn't have enough existing customers they can leverage up for an upgrade to a premium hatch.
Well Yes, Brio did not sell a lot and Amaze owners might look to upgrade to a City and not Jazz. But Honda is considered premium in India and Honda might look to pull a lot of non-Honda owners to Honda with this premium Hatchback. Till date, i20 was the only option for buyers looking for a true premium hatchback (I dont consider Swift to be premium enough with cramped interiors and small boot space) - No wonder it is selling like hot-cakes. Jazz will give them one more option. So, people upgrading from an Alto, A-Star, Santro, i10, etc have an option outside their brand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
Jazz can easily command a premium of 50k more then elite I20.
I seriously doubt this sir. As someone waiting for Jazz and who considered i20 seriously - As of today (with the known features), I would not pay 50k more for Jazz over i20. I am sure, many here will agree with me. Things might change once the real specs come out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
All those bells and whistles like keyless entry etc which the elite i20 has are not a deal breaker when one is buying a car.
It might not matter for you and me, but it does for the general car buying public. Fancy stuff is something we love having and showing off, no matter we use them or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
The Jazz even the older one simply has more space then even a Verna,Vento,Sx4,Linea.
The new one is even bigger has magic seats and bigger boot compared to all other hatchbacks.
So, it will command a premium not to mention the Honda badge.
Yes, no question on space. Jazz will beat any car (except probably the Tatas) in its segment and many cars one segment above. But if space and flexibility was the top-priority for the buyers, why does Swift and Dzire sell so much?? Buyers look for a LOT of factors and choose a car. Honda badge is considered premium, but how much is the question - 20k for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsetorange View Post
Honda should price the Jazz on par with the i20 elite and reel in the customers. Believe me, it still would be a tough fight. The elite i20 is that good in interior quality.
Agreed. Par with i20 will be sweet and i20 + 20k should be the maximum. Whatever be it, Honda will not be able to beat i20 as easily as City did to Verna. City was a brand in itself and same is the case with i20. City managed to beat Verna only with the amount of features it gave and also the drivability of the i-DTEC. Jazz will have a very tough fight with i20 and Honda should be happy if it sold half as much as i20 does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k_ajay View Post
And which feature has a higher chance of being used more frequently? People are folding 'UP' their rear seats drive magically (or) people walk into a car, push a button and drive on [with the key in the bag/pocket]?
Definitely Ajay, the Push-button Start. But that does not take anything away from the flexibility the Jazz provides. Moreover, Jazz will come with Touch-screen HU + Navigation which is absent in i20 and will, IMO, be immensely more useful than a push-button start - even though the frequency of use will be lesser. Each feature will attract a different set of buyers and it is up to the market to evaluate what is more useful and what is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k_ajay View Post
The Elite i20 is a much matured car today and has everything the market wants. Look at its sales. Honda can only, at least momentarily, dream to match it.
Matching i20 sales is pretty much out of question. Can happen only if Jazz eats significantly into i20 sales. i20 is selling 10-12k units per month. For Heaven sake, Honda cannot even produce that many Jazzs forget selling. Honda can match i20 only if it takes 5-6k out of the 10-12k which is going to be a very very tough job to do.
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Old 15th May 2015, 11:47   #979
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Default re: The 2015 Honda Jazz (3rd-gen)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
Jazz can easily command a premium of 50k more then elite I20.
All those bells and whistles like keyless entry etc which the elite i20 has are not a deal breaker when one is buying a car.
The Jazz even the older one simply has more space then even a Verna,Vento,Sx4,Linea.
The new one is even bigger has magic seats and bigger boot compared to all other hatchbacks.
So, it will command a premium not to mention the Honda badge.
A 50k premium over the Elite i20 will mean that the top-end Jazz would comfortably drift into the City's territory, which I don't think Honda will want to do, because although the mindset is sure changing, India is still a country where a hatchback is still considered a small car!


Come on guys, we all love Hondas, but we shouldn't get into justifying the premium that Honda plans to charge on the Jazz, something that's completely uncalled for!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigkey View Post
Even I am not a great fan of i20's front, but I would not call it ugly. I like the Active's front more. In fact, I hated the previous Jazz for looks. It was called funky and futuristic, but I found it buggy and unattractive. But the new Jazz is quite a looker for me. It was love at first sight.
The new jazz is definitely a looker!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigkey View Post
i20's interiors are good - Really Good. But I feel the City's interiors are not as bad as they are made out to be. The plastic is hard - I agree, but the switches and controls have very good quality and looks good to last long. Jazz will have similar quality and I am sure ergonomics will be spot on in Hondas. I definitely agree Hyundai's interior is better than a Honda.
Say what you may the City just doesn't feel like a 13 lakh rupee car on the inside, while most Hyundais get very good quality interiors for the price, others in the price range, even from various other segments are way better than the City.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigkey View Post
Well Yes, Brio did not sell a lot and Amaze owners might look to upgrade to a City and not Jazz. But Honda is considered premium in India and Honda might look to pull a lot of non-Honda owners to Honda with this premium Hatchback. Till date, i20 was the only option for buyers looking for a true premium hatchback (I dont consider Swift to be premium enough with cramped interiors and small boot space) - No wonder it is selling like hot-cakes. Jazz will give them one more option. So, people upgrading from an Alto, A-Star, Santro, i10, etc have an option outside their brand.
Very well said, Swift again doesn't feel like a premium hatchback, except the price there is nothing premium about the Swift.
For the family buyer, the Elite i20 is the only option right now, because the only other premium hatchback, the VW Polo is not spacious enough for 4 people, forget 5!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigkey View Post
It might not matter for you and me, but it does for the general car buying public. Fancy stuff is something we love having and showing off, no matter we use them or not.
Definitely, different people find different features attractive, I have a fancy for electric folding mirrors, although practically its useless!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigkey View Post
Definitely Ajay, the Push-button Start. But that does not take anything away from the flexibility the Jazz provides. Moreover, Jazz will come with Touch-screen HU + Navigation....
I don't think the Touch Screen Navigation will be standard, even on the top-spec variant, because the City doesn't get it too, yes an AVN variant might be on the cards, which is basically the same car with a shitty CASKA HU, which can be bought outside and retrofitted without hampering warranty, and would cost way cheaper!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigkey View Post
Matching i20 sales is pretty much out of question. Can happen only if Jazz eats significantly into i20 sales. i20 is selling 10-12k units per month. For Heaven sake, Honda cannot even produce that many Jazzs forget selling. Honda can match i20 only if it takes 5-6k out of the 10-12k which is going to be a very very tough job to do.
Could't have agreed more, Honda's dominance is history, its gone for long, not to return soon, and quite rightly so, there was a time when Honda either made cars that felt luxurious for the price, or they made cars for the enthusiasts, now Hondas feel like they've been manufactured by Maruti, and its been quite a while since an enthusiast visited the Honda showrooms!

Last edited by 599gto : 15th May 2015 at 12:10.
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Old 15th May 2015, 12:13   #980
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Default re: The 2015 Honda Jazz (3rd-gen)

While I had been to service my Jazz this weekend, I heard from the Honda Sales Executive that the New Jazz will be launched post June 23rd, 2015.

Last edited by moralfibre : 15th May 2015 at 12:21. Reason: Not redundant. Thanks for sharing :)
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Old 15th May 2015, 12:45   #981
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Default re: The 2015 Honda Jazz (3rd-gen)

If going by international reviews, the new gen Jazz has all the ingredients of being termed the better car.

But in our country, for selling in great volumes(as the Swift/i20) it totally just comes down to value proposition(compared to the competition), where pricing becomes the most significant factor and brand image takes a little back seat (especially in this category of less than 10 lakhs).

Regarding what pricing Honda would follow for their Jazz, is entirely upto the objective what Honda wants to acheive with their Jazz model.

1. Do they want to improve their brand image for their long-term market outlook?
For this they will price the Jazz ridiculously close to the City, with no compromise on quality. The H badge has taken a fair amount of beating with their quality, fit and finish issues. Especially on models like Brio, Amaze and even the City. These models may be selling well in India, but this low quality was never characteristic of the original Honda image, and are complained about a lot abroad. They are in a lot of pressure to improve on this. I think this is the most likely road Honda will take. Here read these articles:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspe...-fluctuations/
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0VO08620150214
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0IW0UH20141112
http://fortune.com/2015/02/23/honda-ceo/

2. Do they want a piece of the India Automotive Action?
For this they need to sell in volumes, and in-turn get the pricing sweet-on near to the i20. They dont want i20 to run away with everything. They need a proper offering at this price-range for our market. But again they may not be able to meet the actual Honda standards of quality at that price.

By now Honda might have already decided on these things. It just a matter of waiting for us, which is so frustrating.
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Old 15th May 2015, 13:20   #982
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Default re: The 2015 Honda Jazz (3rd-gen)

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Originally Posted by Vigkey View Post
2. Do they want a piece of the India Automotive Action?
For this they need to sell in volumes, and in-turn get the pricing sweet-on near to the i20. They dont want i20 to run away with everything. They need a proper offering at this price-range for our market. But again they may not be able to meet the actual Honda standards of quality at that price.
I am not sure what you mean by "the actual Honda standards of quality". If Hyundai can give us the quality that today comes in the Elite i20 for the pricepoint it is offered at, what excuse does Honda have to not provide the same quality at an equivalent pricepoint.
I hope you are not implying that products like Elite i20 are sub-standard as far as quality is concerned. If you are, you should sit in an Elite i20 and then the Honda City and come back and tell us where the Elite i20 felt substandard
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Old 15th May 2015, 14:17   #983
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Default re: The 2015 Honda Jazz (3rd-gen)

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Originally Posted by 599gto View Post
Say what you may the City just doesn't feel like a 13 lakh rupee car on the inside, while most Hyundais get very good quality interiors for the price, others in the price range, even from various other segments are way better than the City.
Probably you are right. There are cars in the same price-range with better interior quality. What I felt is the City's quality was satisfactory and not pathetic. They could have done better for sure. For me the interior looks good and the quality of plastic is acceptable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 599gto View Post
I don't think the Touch Screen Navigation will be standard, even on the top-spec variant, because the City doesn't get it too, yes an AVN variant might be on the cards, which is basically the same car with a shitty CASKA HU, which can be bought outside and retrofitted without hampering warranty, and would cost way cheaper!
I think the touch-screen unit with AVN will be standard in the VX variant and all other variants will get City's 5" non-touch HU. I guess, in City, they introduced a new variant just because they they did not want to increase price of VX variant and also want the existing VX customers to feel cheated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WAM-4 View Post
While I had been to service my Jazz this weekend, I heard from the Honda Sales Executive that the New Jazz will be launched post June 23rd, 2015.
Honda has confirmed a July launch, and like most news points out I expect it to be in the first week of July. End of this month or early next month, they might start the mall display and other promotional activities will follow. Pre-booking might also start soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prithvibelli View Post
If going by international reviews, the new gen Jazz has all the ingredients of being termed the better car.
It is a better can in itself. But let us remember one thing. The overseas market gets a 1.5L Petrol engine, which I think is even different from what we get in the City. It is marketed as Honda Earthdreams 1.5 L petrol engine. The Indian city does not get the Earthdreams branding in Petrol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prithvibelli View Post
Regarding what pricing Honda would follow for their Jazz, is entirely upto the objective what Honda wants to acheive with their Jazz model.

1. Do they want to improve their brand image for their long-term market outlook?
For this they will price the Jazz ridiculously close to the City, with no compromise on quality. The H badge has taken a fair amount of beating with their quality, fit and finish issues. Especially on models like Brio, Amaze and even the City. These models may be selling well in India, but this low quality was never characteristic of the original Honda image, and are complained about a lot abroad. They are in a lot of pressure to improve on this. I think this is the most likely road Honda will take. Here read these articles:

2. Do they want a piece of the India Automotive Action?
For this they need to sell in volumes, and in-turn get the pricing sweet-on near to the i20. They dont want i20 to run away with everything. They need a proper offering at this price-range for our market. But again they may not be able to meet the actual Honda standards of quality at that price.
To be frank, I would have preferred Option 1. I wanted Jazz to be a niche car with superior quality, fit and finish with 5* safety rating with a bigger engine and all that. But knowing Honda and how they want to look at the future, they are gonna go for Option 2. A mass market offering bordering i20 prices, placed just above Amaze and well below City. That is my prediction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashua View Post
I am not sure what you mean by "the actual Honda standards of quality". If Hyundai can give us the quality that today comes in the Elite i20 for the pricepoint it is offered at, what excuse does Honda have to not provide the same quality at an equivalent pricepoint.
I hope you are not implying that products like Elite i20 are sub-standard as far as quality is concerned. If you are, you should sit in an Elite i20 and then the Honda City and come back and tell us where the Elite i20 felt substandard
Ashua, the quoted post was made by prithvibelli but I see my name in it. Please edit it . Anyways, I guess, what he means is the quality we see in City is not actual Honda quality. I dont think he is trying to say that Hyundai lacks quality. He means Honda's current products do not match up to the quality we are used to see in earlier Hondas.

Last edited by Vigkey : 15th May 2015 at 14:22.
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Old 15th May 2015, 14:29   #984
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Default re: The 2015 Honda Jazz (3rd-gen)

The previous gen Jazz had similar or maybe even better quality than the City. They will have to repeat that if they want to compete with the i20.

Basically, if they can match the City in terms of quality, give it almost as much equipment as the i20, work on the refinement of the diesel engine and offer it at a price within 30k of the i20, they have a winner on their hands IMO.
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Old 15th May 2015, 14:40   #985
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Default re: The 2015 Honda Jazz (3rd-gen)

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Originally Posted by ashua View Post
I am not sure what you mean by "the actual Honda standards of quality". If Hyundai can give us the quality that today comes in the Elite i20 for the pricepoint it is offered at, what excuse does Honda have to not provide the same quality at an equivalent pricepoint.
I hope you are not implying that products like Elite i20 are sub-standard as far as quality is concerned. If you are, you should sit in an Elite i20 and then the Honda City and come back and tell us where the Elite i20 felt substandard
I am not able to recall Honda saying that the Jazz will be priced "competitively" anywhere, even though a lot questions were thrown at them w.r.t pricing of older gen Jazz. They have always said, external and internal price determinants and value proposition will be considered.

I just wish they find the right balance of pricing and quality especially for India. Somehow Hyundai seems to have mastered this for the Indian market.

I am also eagerly waiting in line to buy this new gen Jazz, and just wish they price it just below i20 with quality maintained. (I am greedy)
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Old 15th May 2015, 14:59   #986
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Originally Posted by Aaron:) View Post
The previous gen Jazz had similar or maybe even better quality than the City. They will have to repeat that if they want to compete with the i20.

Basically, if they can match the City in terms of quality, give it almost as much equipment as the i20, work on the refinement of the diesel engine and offer it at a price within 30k of the i20, they have a winner on their hands IMO.
I am pretty sure Jazz will match the quality of City, not that it is a tough task to accomplish . But Jazz might find it hard to match i20's interior quality. With regards to equipment, we have already discussed a lot on what i20 offers extra and what Jazz does. I feel it is pretty even and probably a slight advantage to i20. Coming to the diesel engine, I drove a 2015 Amaze (600 kms) and 2015 City (200 kms) and found the engine noise to be OK. It was not too bad, neither was it pleasant. I think Honda is constantly working on improving the refinement of the diesel engine and is slowly making real improvements as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prithvibelli View Post
I am not able to recall Honda saying that the Jazz will be priced "competitively" anywhere, even though a lot questions were thrown at them w.r.t pricing of older gen Jazz. They have always said, external and internal price determinants and value proposition will be considered.

I just wish they find the right balance of pricing and quality especially for India. Somehow Hyundai seems to have mastered this for the Indian market.

I am also eagerly waiting in line to buy this new gen Jazz, and just wish they price it just below i20 with quality maintained. (I am greedy)
True Prithvibelli, they were using similar terms on Mobilio pricing as well and we know how terrible it was. Hope it does not repeat with the Jazz.

Oh yeah, so you want Jazz with a lower price than i20, same quality of i20 and what more?? Equipment of a City??? We are greedy, aren't we
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Old 15th May 2015, 15:11   #987
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Default re: The 2015 Honda Jazz (3rd-gen)

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Originally Posted by Vigkey View Post
oh yeah, so you want Jazz with a lower price than i20, same quality of i20 and what more?? Equipment of a City??? We are greedy, aren't we
Some comments on this thread are seriously greedy. Jazz in other markets are positioned above the City. We will not see that in India till our average car buyers grow up.

Jazz was the last quality car made by Honda. Please do not compare it with the likes of Brio platform and even the new City. I hope the car is successful in sales this time. I always think that Honda should keep the car exclusive like the Polo GT. Give it the 1.5L and nice CVT with some bells and whistles and a Mugen makeover.

Last edited by mail4ajo : 15th May 2015 at 15:16.
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Old 15th May 2015, 16:00   #988
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Default re: The 2015 Honda Jazz (3rd-gen)

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Originally Posted by mail4ajo View Post
Some comments on this thread are seriously greedy. Jazz in other markets are positioned above the City. We will not see that in India till our average car buyers grow up.

Jazz was the last quality car made by Honda. Please do not compare it with the likes of Brio platform and even the new City. I hope the car is successful in sales this time. I always think that Honda should keep the car exclusive like the Polo GT. Give it the 1.5L and nice CVT with some bells and whistles and a Mugen makeover.
I guess you spoke for me and all the 'stupid' owners of the previous gen Jazz. While we want the car to be a commercial success this time, it will be even better if Honda keeps it really exclusive and load it up with features and all kinds of bells and whistles. The Mugen kit will be really sweet


And yes, the last gen Jazz had better quality than the previous gen City, period. One of the main reasons why I went for it in spite of being 'overpriced'.
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Old 15th May 2015, 17:40   #989
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Default re: The 2015 Honda Jazz (3rd-gen)

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Originally Posted by k_ajay View Post
And can you explain why the Jazz can command a premium of 50k over the Elite i20? Came down from heavens, probably?

This kind of high-handed absurdity from Honda and elsewhere is why the car was not a major seller, in its last avatar (coupled with ridiculous prices, for the H badge). Keep up with it and it will probably meet the same fate.
And which feature has a higher chance of being used more frequently? People are folding 'UP' their rear seats drive magically (or) people walk into a car, push a button and drive on [with the key in the bag/pocket]?
Its plain simple, it has much bigger space which everyone will appreciate and that by itself means more comfort and not to mention the bigger boot.
As a Jazz owner myself, I have used magic seats numerous times from taking a washing machine drum assembly to a large size lcd tv , my Radio control stuff,to cramming a ladder and for those trips to airport.

So i will choose bigger space then keyless entry any day.

But obviously they won't price it higher then city in India.Even though internationally its the opposite.

Last edited by aim120 : 15th May 2015 at 17:41.
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Old 15th May 2015, 18:42   #990
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Default re: The 2015 Honda Jazz (3rd-gen)

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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
Its plain simple, it has much bigger space which everyone will appreciate and that by itself means more comfort and not to mention the bigger boot.
As a Jazz owner myself, I have used magic seats numerous times from taking a washing machine drum assembly to a large size lcd tv , my Radio control stuff,to cramming a ladder and for those trips to airport.

So i will choose bigger space then keyless entry any day.

But obviously they won't price it higher then city in India.Even though internationally its the opposite.
I would choose space over features too, but the fact is that we are a minority. The mass market wants their car to be as loaded as possible. Extra features, even if they are unnecessary or gimmicky, are always nice to have.

I really hope Honda is able to strike a balance between quality, price and features. If they do get it right, I will be the first one in queue to get my hands on the car.
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