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Old 18th June 2013, 10:44   #61
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Default Re: Rajiv Bajaj lashes out at Tata and Maruti for opposing quadricycles

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Originally Posted by Daewood View Post
Atleast Mr. Bajaj had the guts to express his views directly even if some of them may have been one sided, but these opposing bigwigs seem to be hiding behind the veil of this 'friendly' reporter and firing.

Some of the arguments from the the article.
Even motorcycles are recreational vehicles in Europe, but used for commuting in India. They are far more dangerous than any other form of transport and account for the most number of road deaths in india. Why aren't you arguing for their licences to be scrapped.

Does the author know that if crash norms are standardised like in Europe, most of the car models that sell more than 1000 units per month here in India will be unfit to be sold.
I live in the same metro as the author and anyone with uncoloured eyes will tell you that the conjestion on the roads is due to the extreme rise in number of cars during the past 8 years and autos form only a small fraction of that number.
Raving and ranting without knowing ground reality is to appear foolish, exactly as Mr Bajaj is being looked at now, blind speaking one's mind off is also the habit of a certian Ms Sawant, I am sure an industry leader must appear more mature.

Motorcycle licences should be more strict, manufacturing and licencing norms should be stricter, atleast have tubeless tyres, abs on all bikes and ensure helmet and high vis jackets are compulsory while riding. But knowing our corrupt government, this will never be made possible, also stalwarts like Mr Bajaj will lobby against mandatory abs and tubeless tyres.

Most of the Indian cars meet crash requirements in Europe or elsewhere, can you please explain how are Tata, Maruti, Hyundai cars getting sold in Europe then? At the least the body and chassis remains common with Indian cars, which have to be crash certified before being released in Europe. Try getting any crash certificate for a 3/4/10 wheeled rickshaw!!!

I dont know about Chennai, but in Mumbai the day these auto goons declare a strike and are off the road, it is a bliss for motorists, we never know that our roads are so wide and we can drive peacefully without these cockroaches.
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Old 18th June 2013, 12:27   #62
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Default Re: Rajiv Bajaj lashes out at Tata and Maruti for opposing quadricycles

This is what Bajaj is doing to make a quick buck. Earlier, I admired the vision of Rajiv Bajaj that how he dumped his father's ideas of scooters and forayed into Motorcycle's category. They successfully gave Hero, Honda and others a good run for their money. But now, he is going back to the 80s, where they would work in a protected environment (by the Govt. Policies) and mint money. The statements given by him would not match even by those of kids studying in class-II. Being kind to him, the least I can do is term them 'laughable & hilarious'. In fact, I was thinking to quote some of his statements in our forum's thread: Quirky logic and funny comments from non-petrol head friends

About safety, just adding a wheel to a 3 wheeler will not make a Quad more safe. It is just a cover up to the much hyped Bajaj's small car which they wanted to compete with the Nano. However, the not so encouraging sales of Nano, & moreover inability to match the Nano on most grounds leaves him with no option than to build a protected environment and operate within that bubble. Else, how do you think to recoup those R&D (if there was any) & other costs involved in the development of this quirky vehicle. Not to mention his share of ugly vehicles Bajaj owes to India. Though, not applicable to the bikes though.

If the policy is not lobbied, why most of the existing vehicles like Tata Ace are within the gamut of the policy? Why to leave them out?

Also, in most cities & towns, I have seen even in Mumbai & Delhi, the autos are overloaded with 4 or even 5 people on board. It will be no different for a quad, doesn't matter if its a 3+1 vehicle.

Also, arguing about Quad's usage in Europe is worthless. In Europe, Quads are used by elderly people, or learners. Moreover, they are not used on regular roads but sparsely populated areas. They are mostly used as recreational vehicles than a vehicle of commute or a public transport system. All these things will never be considered while operating in India. And its impossible to keep them away from NHs.

Moreover, talking about safety, Quads are NOT REQUIRED TO COMPLY WITH ANY CRASH TESTS in Europe. Expect nothing better for India. Then how come they can be termed safe? Only because of the additional wheel- I guess.

& people, please think before bashing up Tata & Maruti. Their vehicles are already being exported & sold in Europe, where they DO meet the safety standards. It is only good to see that most of the safety features are now being offered in Indian markets too in the higher trims.

So, when the Industry is moving forward with safety & emission norms, how wise is a decision to introduce such a vehicle which regresses the standards? Just like when Bajaj opposed the liberalisation, its trying to do the same now, by asking Govt. to be protective.

Moreover, if the Govt. does not bans the regular autos & hence forces the auto walas to get a quad, it won't make any financial sense to them: The cost is higher, so is the ownership cost & maintenance, running cost. Heck, even the capacity is the same

In a way, Mr Bajaj may be digging his own grave here. Imagine his 3 wheeled autos are banned and the Quads are priced near or more than the Nano, (Mr. Bajaj thinks that it is still viable to price the Quads just short than the Alto). All auto walas might migrate to being a taxi owner by getting themselves a Nano. Makes much more sense and who knows, Nano may be a late success!

Last edited by saket77 : 18th June 2013 at 12:55.
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Old 18th June 2013, 13:48   #63
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Default Re: Rajiv Bajaj lashes out at Tata and Maruti for opposing quadricycles

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Most of the Indian cars meet crash requirements in Europe or elsewhere, can you please explain how are Tata, Maruti, Hyundai cars getting sold in Europe then? At the least the body and chassis remains common with Indian cars, which have to be crash certified before being released in Europe.
Hello apachelongbow

This may be OT for this thread, but don't be so sure about the crash-worthiness of Indian cars. Having worked in automotive R&D for a few years now, I know for a fact that none of the Indian OEMs (be it Tata, Mahindra or for that matter, even MSIL) use the exact same body shell for domestic and export models.

Yes, mostly, in the design phase, the body is designed to meet crash requirements. This usually requires a lot of reinforcements in the weld body. When it comes to the domestic variants, these are removed from all areas possible (to reduce cost and weight obviously). Therefore, even if the cars 'look' the same from the outside, what goes inside is very very different.

Cheers!

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Old 18th June 2013, 13:59   #64
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Default Re: Rajiv Bajaj lashes out at Tata and Maruti for opposing quadricycles

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Originally Posted by Viju View Post
Hello apachelongbow

This may be OT for this thread, but don't be so sure about the crash-worthiness of Indian cars. Having worked in automotive R&D for a few years now, I know for a fact that none of the Indian OEMs (be it Tata, Mahindra or for that matter, even MSIL) use the exact same body shell for domestic and export models.

Yes, mostly, in the design phase, the body is designed to meet crash requirements. This usually requires a lot of reinforcements in the weld body. When it comes to the domestic variants, these are removed from all areas possible (to reduce cost and weight obviously). Therefore, even if the cars 'look' the same from the outside, what goes inside is very very different.

Cheers!
That is a serious allegation, and if this is true, that means the Indian car companies are performing a serious fraud on Indian car buying public!!
Can you substantiate what you just wrote above with facts or proofs?
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Old 18th June 2013, 14:26   #65
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Default Re: Rajiv Bajaj lashes out at Tata and Maruti for opposing quadricycles

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That is a serious allegation, and if this is true, that means the Indian car companies are performing a serious fraud on Indian car buying public!!
Can you substantiate what you just wrote above with facts or proofs?
The Indigo electric version, the Nano Europa, all have extra reinforcements designed and reported so in media as an exercise to meet safety norms.

Maybe checking the weight of the same model might point towards such practice.
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Old 18th June 2013, 15:04   #66
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Default Re: Rajiv Bajaj lashes out at Tata and Maruti for opposing quadricycles

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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
The Indigo electric version, the Nano Europa, all have extra reinforcements designed and reported so in media as an exercise to meet safety norms.

Maybe checking the weight of the same model might point towards such practice.
I don't really can say that the complete body shell is different but yes, there are some reinforcement bars attached in the chassis. Also, air bags are mandatory to sell cars in Europe, which make them safer.

I don't know that comparing the weights will give a clear picture always as most cars also differ in trim levels to be sold in Europe and sometimes even a different engine. However, this is OT.

Coming back, do we all know that Quadricycles need not comply with any crash tests in Europe?
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Old 18th June 2013, 15:08   #67
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Default Re: Rajiv Bajaj lashes out at Tata and Maruti for opposing quadricycles

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Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
I don't really can say that the complete body shell is different but yes, there are some reinforcement bars attached in the chassis. Also, air bags are mandatory to sell cars in Europe, which make them safer.

I don't know that comparing the weights will give a clear picture always as most cars also differ in trim levels to be sold in Europe and sometimes even a different engine. However, this is OT.

Coming back, do we all know that Quadricycles need not comply with any crash tests in Europe?
Crash handling is because of crumple zones, crushable hoods, bonnets, pedistrian safe bumpers etc, I believe once these are frozen on a car, it becomes expensive for them to be removed to localize the car to India. If the makers pass NCAP tests then the car is certified to meet certian safety standards, which still hold good in India.
Earlier during the licence raj era (which Mr Bajaj is a card holding member of), Fiats and Ambassadors had to be specially modified, to be even importable in Europe, our standards were that miserably low, where as today India is the hub of small car exports to other countries.

Regarding quadricyles, sorry Europe or India both dont have any safety standards for them. In Europe they are clubbed with recreational vehicles like gokarts to be used off road only. Here Rajiv Bajaj wants to make these same jugaads run on our expressways carrying moronic drivers and passengers.
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Old 18th June 2013, 15:16   #68
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Default Re: Rajiv Bajaj lashes out at Tata and Maruti for opposing quadricycles

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
That is a serious allegation, and if this is true, that means the Indian car companies are performing a serious fraud on Indian car buying public!!
Can you substantiate what you just wrote above with facts or proofs?


It is not an allegation, it is a fact. I know this because I have been a part of the design and development of 7 or 8 of the passenger cars sold in India. And these points (about what reinforcements to keep and what to do away with for domestic variants) are topics of lengthy discussions during body design phase. You may check with anyone working in the industry.

I cannot provide proof for this since I am still very much a part of the industry and intend to remain so for the rest of my career. It would be highly unethical of me to point out that so and so reinforcement from the A pillar of this model was removed for domestic market.

And why do you say it is a fraud? There are no crash regulations currently in place in India! Then why should car companies sell 4 or 5 star rated cars in India, unless they advertise them to be?

In India, vehicles are designed to meet the bare minimum regulations. They are not designed to be the best that they could be. It is a plain fact - unfortunate, but true. You might have read many of Mr. Behram's posts which reflects this.

Anyway, I think we are going seriously OT here. May be we can discuss more details over pm.

Cheers!

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Old 18th June 2013, 15:18   #69
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Default Re: Rajiv Bajaj lashes out at Tata and Maruti for opposing quadricycles

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
In Europe they are clubbed with recreational vehicles like gokarts to be used off road only. Here Rajiv Bajaj wants to make these same jugaads run on our expressways carrying moronic drivers and passengers.
Exactly; and they are promoting this vehicle with the placard in had 'used in Europe'. Why don't they say HOW it is used? Europeans, who are safety maniacs, would never commute in such a vehicle and we are thinking it to make it a public transport system?
If the Govt. goes on to ban the 3 wheelers in some states as first phase migration, that can mean business for the Tata, specifically the Nano. The auto walas may prefer becoming a taxi wala than buying those quads.
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Old 18th June 2013, 15:23   #70
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Default Re: Rajiv Bajaj lashes out at Tata and Maruti for opposing quadricycles

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Exactly; and they are promoting this vehicle with the placard in had 'used in Europe'. Why don't they say HOW it is used? Europeans, who are safety maniacs, would never commute in such a vehicle and we are thinking it to make it a public transport system?
But isn't the Reva a popular vehicle in the UK (especially in London where there are no congestion charges for electric vehicles)?

And it is very much classified as a quadricycle over there.
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Old 18th June 2013, 15:33   #71
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Default Re: Rajiv Bajaj lashes out at Tata and Maruti for opposing quadricycles

An incumbent industrialist wants to manipulate the governance structure to accommodate the antique technology he can offer, instead of making products that comply with existing governance.

This is the sort of nonsense that used to happen in the License Raj era - if it occurs again in this day and age, then we seriously need to think in terms of opening our market COMPLETELY to competent foreign manufacturers. Else such parasites will continue to thrive.
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Old 18th June 2013, 15:36   #72
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Default Re: Rajiv Bajaj lashes out at Tata and Maruti for opposing quadricycles

Ok, what I gather from the multiple posts here is:
1) India has no crash worthiness tests or ratings, nither are manufacturers obliged to provide crash protection systems by law in their cars
2) Bajaj wants a new category of motor vehicles called quadricycles, in which only his RE60 can find a place
3) Bajaj wants RE60 to be able to run on all roads and be bought by all kinds of people, cabbies included.
4) We are all complaining the quadricycles have no safety systems in place and will create havoc and more deaths if released on our roads

What I fail to understand is, if we have no safety polices/regulations for cars, why should Bajaj lobby for a new category called quadricycles? Cant he sell the RE60 as a car by itself? Or is he lobbying just so that taxes are lowered for his product?

If cars here have no or reduced safety systems, how does it matter if a new quadricycle is released? it would be as safe or unsafe as our cars then.

Your inputs please........................
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Old 18th June 2013, 15:44   #73
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Default Re: Rajiv Bajaj lashes out at Tata and Maruti for opposing quadricycles

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But isn't the Reva a popular vehicle in the UK (especially in London where there are no congestion charges for electric vehicles)?

And it is very much classified as a quadricycle over there.
Yes Viju, you are right. Reva, known as G-Wiz has its existence in UK, but its sold no more. When it was sold, it had to go through its own share of criticism in UK for being what it was. Also, Reva was exported to US, though speed limit was set to 25 mph, so as to limit the use of the vehicle as a Neighborhood Electric Vehicle only.
Thankfully, the Reva, being an electric vehicle is not a noise pollutant, neither a threat to the environment. And that's what made Reva survive in the foreign markets.

Unfortunately, RE60 is has none of these features. Moreover, if we see the condition of the current bajaj autos even in this era of technology, and the mindset of Mr. Rajiv Bajaj, its difficult to expect a vehicle which will have acceptable NVH levels. Projected FE is also only on papers as of now.

Regards,
Saket
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Old 19th June 2013, 12:00   #74
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Default Re: Rajiv Bajaj lashes out at Tata and Maruti for opposing quadricycles

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What I fail to understand is, if we have no safety polices/regulations for cars, why should Bajaj lobby for a new category called quadricycles? Cant he sell the RE60 as a car by itself? Or is he lobbying just so that taxes are lowered for his product?
If it was so simple RE would have sold Bullet 350 with that Sholay type side cart and called it a car. Eventhough safety standards are very basic in India, there are certain minimum physical dimensions and engine capacity to be categorized as car. It seems he was told to increase the size of his vehicle by 10cm to be called a car. He didn't want to do that because that would have given the impression of being a Nano competitor. He wants to create an all new form of urban commuting.
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Bajaj wants a new category of motor vehicles called quadricycles, in which only his RE60 can find a place
Please explain what manipulation has he done, such that TVS cannot modify it's TVS king into a quad.
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An incumbent industrialist wants to manipulate the governance structure to accommodate the antique technology he can offer,
Every carmaker exploits the loopholes in Government laws. All these compact sedans like Dzire are compressed with no concern for safety in case of a rear end crash, to bypass the tax structure. I don't understand how a car that is 400cm hogs much more space than a car that is 399cm to warrant an increase of 100% tax.
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Also, in most cities & towns, I have seen even in Mumbai & Delhi, the autos are overloaded with 4 or even 5 people on board. It will be no different for a quad, doesn't matter if its a 3+1 vehicle.
Why nobody has a problem with Altos and M800s carrying 5 people when their rated capacity is only 4. Even Scorpios and Innovos are mostly overloaded. Nobody has asked for banning these vehicles. Is it because these vehicles have doors and windows and passengers won't fall outside while taking a turn. If so even RE60 has doors and windows. Also it's only a 200cc engine, you overload and it might not even move.

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Old 19th June 2013, 12:36   #75
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Default Re: Rajiv Bajaj lashes out at Tata and Maruti for opposing quadricycles

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Originally Posted by Daewood View Post
If it was so simple RE would have sold Bullet 350 with that Sholay type side cart and called it a car Eventhough safety standards are very basic in India, there are certain minimum physical dimensions and engine capacity to be categorized as car. It seems he was told to increase the size of his vehicle by 10cm to be called a car. He didn't want to do that because that would have given the impression of being a Nano competitor. He wants to create an all new form of urban commuting.
Please explain what manipulation has he done, such that TVS cannot modify it's TVS king into a quad.

Every carmaker exploits the loopholes in Government laws. All these compact sedans like Dzire are compressed with no concern for safety in case of a rear end crash, to bypass the tax structure. I don't understand how a car that is 400cm hogs much more space than a car that is 399cm to warrant an increase of 100% tax.

Why nobody has a problem with Altos and M800s carrying 5 people when their rated capacity is only 4. Even Scorpios and Innovos are mostly overloaded. Nobody has asked for banning these vehicles. Is it because these vehicles have doors and windows and passengers won't fall outside while taking a turn. If so even RE60 has doors and windows, and also it's only a 200cc engine. You overload and it might not have the required torque to pull.
I am not sure, but the rated capacity of most cars including the Alto & 800 is 4+1. Hence, 5 passengers are justified. Also, though unsafe to overload, but one cannot deny that at least even these cars have passed Indian safety standards by ARAI.
Though, would like to point that overloading (say a 6th passenger!) in these small cars is mostly occasional. The owner does gains financially for that, hence it remains occasional. But the commercial usage does not follow that pattern. Its a common site in most cities to see at least 5-6 passengers and an additional driver in a 3 seater auto at any point of time. They have puny engines and can still churn that much torque to pull. RE60, in comparison has more power, hence pulling power is not an issue. Also, overloading will be much more unsafe when you compare them to hatchbacks. Rest assured, unsafe overloadings are the most common sightings on Indian roads for commercial vehicles. People can be found even on the hard top.

Coming to the Dzire, first of all, the 4m excise duty decision doesnot holds for only Maruti. Its same for all manufacturers. Most of them are participating in the party, be it Maruti, Tata, GM, Ford, Honda, VW and who is not. They are safe enough to be on road, even in case of being rear ended. If not, no hatchbacks in the world would exist. However, I too feel the 4mtr law is absurd.

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He didn't want to do that because that would have given the impression of being a Nano competitor.
Why impression? Bajaj themselves made tall claims of developing a Nano competitor before they came up with the RE. Its only when their JV partner Renault insisted on Quality and Mr. Bajaj on cost, the venture went dead. Hence, what we have is RE60 in place of a Nano competitor. That's the poor state of Bajaj.

Even Tata, far before when Indica's idea was perceived, was in talks with Mercedes Benz for developing a small car for India. Later when Tata realised that Indians might not like to pay the brand premium of the Merc on small cars in the price sensitive market, they decided to venture alone. I must add that they made it out much better than Mr. Bajaj.

Last edited by saket77 : 19th June 2013 at 12:43.
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