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Old 26th July 2013, 12:48   #31
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Default re: General Motors India recalls 1.14 lakh units of the Tavera

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Originally Posted by rahul4321 View Post
But i fail to understand, if it was not the latter, what reason could they possibly have to fudge a test engine and not use the same set up on the production engine. Its not like they cheated on the test. They already cleared the test- so why change the engine set up and do something which would not meet the emission criteria? In a nutshell- what could GM gain (moneytary or otherwise) out of such practice?
Because the parts that may have been added to reduce emissions may have been costly and hence denting their profit margins. So, get the vehicle approved by giving a good tuned up mule, and then sell a poor quality cheap variant that does not conform to emissions.

Also, regarding some posts which say the the cars were running fine for the last 8 years, sure it would not be apparent to them but definitely emitting more fumes than permissible limits. Everywhere we see trucks, tempos, jeeps etc emitting smoke, because it makes no difference to the driver because for them, their vehicles are running fine.

But yes, not to blame everybody, if due to the PUC checking system, they are within permissible limits during a genuine check, then it is not their fault

Rgds

Last edited by bblost : 26th July 2013 at 12:54. Reason: fixed quotes
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Old 26th July 2013, 13:29   #32
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Default re: General Motors India recalls 1.14 lakh units of the Tavera

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Because the parts that may have been added to reduce emissions may have been costly and hence denting their profit margins. So, get the vehicle approved by giving a good tuned up mule, and then sell a poor quality cheap variant that does not conform to emissions.

Also, regarding some posts which say the the cars were running fine for the last 8 years, sure it would not be apparent to them but definitely emitting more fumes than permissible limits. Everywhere we see trucks, tempos, jeeps etc emitting smoke, because it makes no difference to the driver because for them, their vehicles are running fine.

But yes, not to blame everybody, if due to the PUC checking system, they are within permissible limits during a genuine check, then it is not their fault

Rgds

Even if i assume that a lot of PUC checkup guys simply reprint the PUC, there are quite a few of them who properly check the emission and then only print the PUC. With my car almost all the times it was properly checked and the emissions was found to be almost Half of what the Government Limits are (I own a Chevy).

It looks like Either ARAI Equipments are too good or the PUC checkup Equipments are really really bad at checking pollution. Remember the PUC checking machines has to check against the norms prescribed for Individual cars. So if they are checking BS3 spec swift they will check against a different limits than when they are checking BS4 spec Swift.

I am shocked that the Government Machinery couldn't point it out for 8 year and none of the consumers brought it to the public or compnay's notice.

Last edited by anu21v : 26th July 2013 at 13:34.
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Old 26th July 2013, 14:29   #33
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Default re: General Motors India recalls 1.14 lakh units of the Tavera

Let me elaborate.... The vehicles are "Type approved" for a particular spec and checked to see if they are under the emission levels depending upon the category they come under. So as per CMVR the Tavera BS3 was approved (say around 2005) and BS4(around 2011- They failed to get BS4 approved initially when BS4 norms were brought into place). Once the test vehicles pass the required norms, they are issued a certificate which enables them to sell across the country. When BS4 was implemented, this was implemented in major cities whereas in the remaining parts of the country, BS3 could continue. As mentioned above COP or Conformity of Production has to be done at ARAI or iCAT once in three, six or twelve months based on the sales figures. During this an official would visit the factory, and randomly chose vehicles (again depending on the sales : More vehicles if sales are high, lesser if the it is a low selling vehicle).The details like chassis no., Engine number, Catcon ID, Fuel pump ID etc,. are noted. These vehicles are then sealed at the hood and tank area( so that they are not tampered with before testing and sent to these Testing agencies). Now though GM got the BS4 Type Approved, it continued to sell the BS3 in rural areas at cheaper price.
As a result it would need to conduct COP for both the BS4 and the BS3 versions. The fact that both BS3 and BS4 versions failed to meet the requirement is quite astounding though. About 'Where the entire tampering fiaso could have happened' .. Your guess is as good as mine.
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Old 26th July 2013, 21:03   #34
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Default re: General Motors India recalls 1.14 lakh units of the Tavera

Chevy in massive damage control mode! After being caught with its pants well and truly down.

Quite a few thoughts:-
How? Whistleblower? Someone not paid (off)? Corporate skullduggery? (No, I'm not a conspiracy theorist)

The emission test is done on a rolling road simulating a driving cycle. I believe a rule of the thumb correction is applied for aerodynamic drag. What correction is applied for weight?

Is this why Chevy repeatedly mentions weight?

What about ARAI fuel consumption figures?

Management KNOWS about the emission problem. For years. And still does nothing. Chalta Hai. Us, Chinese or Indian trait?

Always wondered about vehicles in which ECU is updated at dealer/ service point.

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Old 26th July 2013, 22:03   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Chevy in massive damage control mode! After being caught with its pants well and truly down.

Quite a few thoughts:-
How? Whistleblower? Someone not paid (off)? Corporate skullduggery? (No, I'm not a conspiracy theorist)

The emission test is done on a rolling road simulating a driving cycle. I believe a rule of the thumb correction is applied for aerodynamic drag. What correction is applied for weight?

Is this why Chevy repeatedly mentions weight?

What about ARAI fuel consumption figures?

Management KNOWS about the emission problem. For years. And still does nothing. Chalta Hai. Us, Chinese or Indian trait?

Always wondered about vehicles in which ECU is updated at dealer/ service point.

Regards
Sutripta
https://www.araiindia.com/downloads_..._documents.asp

The test procedure for type approval and COP for emissions is given on the ARAI website if anyone is interested to go through.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=h..._Chapter04.pdf

The above document describes the procedures for setup of chassis dynamometer. The formula for road load simulation takes into account rolling resistance, inertial resistance and aerodynamic resistance. A difference in the weight of the vehicle will definitely affect these values directly.

Just something we got to learn at ARAI during our M.tech course. Might be an interesting read if you have the patience to go through typical "standards" lingo.
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Old 27th July 2013, 11:59   #36
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Default re: General Motors India recalls 1.14 lakh units of the Tavera

Chevrolet in deep water!! The other side of the coin is whether there was any wrong doing from the certification authority as well .

More and more people getting fired as well
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/21385304.cms
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Old 27th July 2013, 12:32   #37
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Default re: General Motors India recalls 1.14 lakh units of the Tavera

GM fires global powertrain chief, several employees .

Sam Winegarden, GM's vice president for global engine engineering, was let go this week along with about 10 other GM Powertrain employees in the U.S. and India.


Winegarden had been GM's top engine executive since 2004, overseeing the development and production of engines across GM's portfolio. He joined the company in 1969 as a co-op student at the Buick Motor Division while attending General Motors Institute, now Kettering University, according to a GM bio. In the early 1990s, he was chief engineer for the Buick-Oldsmobile-Cadillac Group and oversaw the Northstar V-8 and premium V-6 engine lines.




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Old 27th July 2013, 12:53   #38
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Default re: General Motors India recalls 1.14 lakh units of the Tavera

All employees in India & other countries that were party to falsehood and cheating should be sacked immediately.

IMO, GM has taken the correct steps and it sends the right message to the authorities and customers.
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Old 27th July 2013, 20:16   #39
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I went to TD the enjoy today. The tavera is available for sale. Is the problem resolved or the dealers are still selling old inventory?
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Old 27th July 2013, 21:00   #40
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Default re: General Motors India recalls 1.14 lakh units of the Tavera

Quote:
Originally Posted by DReddy View Post
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=h..._Chapter04.pdf

The above document describes the procedures for setup of chassis dynamometer. The formula for road load simulation takes into account rolling resistance, inertial resistance and aerodynamic resistance. A difference in the weight of the vehicle will definitely affect these values directly.
Thanks for the links.

Question is not how to set up the rolling road in general, but what ARAI does. Am sure the answer is somewhere in those documents, but will need a lot of digging.

I seem to remember that the corrections/ coefficients used by ARAI to mimic rolling resistance was based on a table of values (preobtained ballpark figures) rather than actual figures for the car. Taking the specific case of weight, for each weight band, there used to be a predetermined coefficient.
If correct, then until and unless the weight difference takes it from one weight class to another, should not affect ARAI's results.

Maybe I'll give the ARAI links a try tomorrow.

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Sutripta
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Old 27th July 2013, 22:58   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Thanks for the links.

Question is not how to set up the rolling road in general, but what ARAI does. Am sure the answer is somewhere in those documents, but will need a lot of digging.

I seem to remember that the corrections/ coefficients used by ARAI to mimic rolling resistance was based on a table of values (preobtained ballpark figures) rather than actual figures for the car. Taking the specific case of weight, for each weight band, there used to be a predetermined coefficient.
If correct, then until and unless the weight difference takes it from one weight class to another, should not affect ARAI's results.

Maybe I'll give the ARAI links a try tomorrow.

Regards
Sutripta
Indeed there is a table given in the same document for a range of vehicle weights which changes for every 100-200 kgs in order to determine the coefficients.

The standard says that this is one of the methods to calibrate the dyno. The other is to do a coast down test of the actual vehicle to determine these values. We got that done for our formula car during our project there as it was a different class of weight and very different aerodynamically.
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Old 28th July 2013, 01:57   #42
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Default re: General Motors India recalls 1.14 lakh units of the Tavera

I don't know about GM, but what I can see and smell is that middle aged TATA always seem to be pouring black clouds of smoke, if not continuously, then definitely upon acceleration. And I've always wondered how TATA manages to say their engines are BSII complaint, leave alone BSIV.

Those trucks that run on Delhi roads through the night could ever be any emission norm compliant? That's obviously a scandal there!
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Old 28th July 2013, 08:53   #43
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http://m.thehindu.com/business/Indus...e/?secid=12626

Heads roll at GM.

Last edited by Deep Blue : 28th July 2013 at 08:54.
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Old 28th July 2013, 09:09   #44
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Originally Posted by SLK View Post
And I've always wondered how TATA manages to say their engines are BSII complaint, leave alone BSIV.
They will say it was complying during the sale and now they are not accountable. They are about to be sued at Bangalore for supplying buses - rear engine low floor, which was emitting thick black smoke, but 'somehow' it didn't happen.
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Old 28th July 2013, 16:19   #45
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Default re: General Motors India recalls 1.14 lakh units of the Tavera

From what I read about this disclosure by GM it looks similar to what happened at Ranbaxy - only difference being that in the latter case the truth came out when a whistleblower went to the US FDA. If GM disclosed this on their own kudos to them. But I'm quite sure if such a thing could happen then
1. There must be enough corrupt elements in every other auto company also ( including the 2 main Indian ones )
2. ARAI + all the other certification officials could be hand in glove with this.

I wonder if Karl Slym knew this was going to happen and quit before the bomb burst !

Last edited by narayan : 28th July 2013 at 16:22.
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