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Old 3rd September 2013, 18:46   #226
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The one attitude that has not changed is the common (and false) belief among manufacturers that there is no need for sub-1 million rupee diesel automatics and we have to wait quite a while before this changes
A diesel car variant to variant is roughly one lakh rupees more expensive than its petrol counterpart. Now once you add the extra cost of an auto gear box, it will take the price up by another 40 to 50 thousand. Not to mention a decrease in fuel efficiency as automatics by virtue are more fuel thirsty than manuals. Agreed there are more fuel efficient boxes but they are also more expensive.

Net result will be that these diesel auto variants will start overlapping with other cars higher up in the food chain. Thus value proposition will take a hit.

Considering that most of these cars are in the budget and mileage conscious segments such a move will prove disastrous.

While this would bring in some sales it will not be cost effective to make such a move considering costs to design and pair an auto box to a diesel engine.
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Old 3rd September 2013, 19:44   #227
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I can see Ritz being the biggest loser because of the Grand i10's launch. It has more features and is a fresher car. But one factor that will still work in Ritz favor is that it has got a proven engine and is a 4 cylinder one.
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Old 3rd September 2013, 20:35   #228
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Booked a test drive and to my surprise, within half an hour received call and verified my personal details and dealer preference. Also informed that dealer will be fixing an appointment within two days.
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Old 3rd September 2013, 20:45   #229
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Excellent pricing by Hyundai. Since it is priced on par with current i10, we can expect a price correction and product re alignment in Hyundai range very soon - like dropping Santro and i10 Kappa, reducing i10 IRDE prices, Eon with 1.1L engine etc. Or, is Hyundai playing 'Maruti ki bap ka khel'?

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Old 3rd September 2013, 22:28   #230
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Originally Posted by eq24 View Post
A diesel car variant to variant is roughly one lakh rupees more expensive than its petrol counterpart. Now once you add the extra cost of an auto gear box, it will take the price up by another 40 to 50 thousand. Not to mention a decrease in fuel efficiency as automatics by virtue are more fuel thirsty than manuals. Agreed there are more fuel efficient boxes but they are also more expensive.

Net result will be that these diesel auto variants will start overlapping with other cars higher up in the food chain. Thus value proposition will take a hit.

Considering that most of these cars are in the budget and mileage conscious segments such a move will prove disastrous.

While this would bring in some sales it will not be cost effective to make such a move considering costs to design and pair an auto box to a diesel engine.
You can say that about petrol ATs but fuel consumption difference between diesel AT and MT variant of same car is almost zero. Smallest diesel AT car is Verna. Fuel consumption of diesel Verna MT and AT is nearly same that is because of diesel engine's high torque.

When people are buying petrol AT hatches like A-Stars, i10s, i20s, Micras, Brios in good numbers paying extra premium over MT and taking hit of 1-2 KMPL FE, what makes you think they would not do the same for a diesel AT hatch? Ask any existing AT hatch owner, if he had a diesel hatch AT alternative, would he not have bought it?

For a petrol AT hatch money, you would get base diesel MT hatch but people are still preferring AT. When they can sacrifice evrything else for the sake of convenience of AT, what makes you think they would not buy a diesel AT hatch?. I have been waiting for one since 2008 and I had even started a thread back then. But looks like these morons of manufacturers are totally blind to a virgin segment.

Last edited by pgsagar : 3rd September 2013 at 22:29.
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Old 3rd September 2013, 23:01   #231
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The petrol engine comes with an ARAI certified mileage figure of 18.9 Kmpl while the diesel engine comes with an ARAI certified mileage figure of 24 Kmpl.
As suspected in an earlier post, the fuel economy (ARAI) of 18.9 kmpl claimed by the Grand i10 is slightly below the FE (ARAI) of the i10, which is a little over 20 kmpl. This marginal difference is good news especially because the Grand i10 is longer, wider and therefore, heavier than the existing i10.

Having said that, it is almost impossible for anyone to attain the ARAI FE figures claimed by the i10 (despite being a sedate driver and good road conditions, I have got an average of 17 kmpl on my i10 here in Goa). Going by this experience, I tend to believe that this will be the same case with the Grand i10 and obtaining a FE of 14-15 kmpl will be more achievable to the sedate driver. Expect the FE to plunge to about 10-11 kmpl for the enthusiast.

Having owned an i10 for nearly 3 years, I am familiar (and pleased) with the Kappa2 experience. Hence, I am more interested in the performance and efficiency new diesel engine, from a sedate driver's perspective. Eagerly awaiting the Team-bhp review in this regard.
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Old 3rd September 2013, 23:11   #232
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You can say that about petrol ATs but fuel consumption difference between diesel AT and MT variant of same car is almost zero. Smallest diesel AT car is Verna. Fuel consumption of diesel Verna MT and AT is nearly same that is because of diesel engine's high torque.

When people are buying petrol AT hatches like A-Stars, i10s, i20s, Micras, Brios in good numbers paying extra premium over MT and taking hit of 1-2 KMPL FE, what makes you think they would not do the same for a diesel AT hatch? Ask any existing AT hatch owner, if he had a diesel hatch AT alternative, would he not have bought it?

For a petrol AT hatch money, you would get base diesel MT hatch but people are still preferring AT. When they can sacrifice evrything else for the sake of convenience of AT, what makes you think they would not buy a diesel AT hatch?. I have been waiting for one since 2008 and I had even started a thread back then. But looks like these morons of manufacturers are totally blind to a virgin segment.
We have two fortuners at home, mine is an auto gives around 10.8 to 11 average, my cousin has a manual gives him around 12-13 and this is also a torque converter box and the fortuner has enough torque to move a house.

Before you go and start calling manufacturers morons, know this, it is not moronic to have a firm business plan and adhere to the principles of demand and supply. How many petrol AT cars sell that you have listed above, have you ever though of that and the fact that most of the R and D cost is pared by extensive use of these boxes worldwide so it does not pinch manufacturers to give them. Do you think that if there is money to be made they will simply say, we don't need the extra money and walk away. AT demand in a diesel Brio, swift, i10 segment is very negligible to make anyone warrant the costs to manufacture one.

And if you are ready to sacrifice everything, just buy a petrol automatic that is the best option or you can always make a diesel AT box yourself.

This post is not on the topic and I feel that any further debate will just go more off topic. PM me if you want to add anything.
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Old 3rd September 2013, 23:26   #233
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Originally Posted by eq24 View Post
We have two fortuners at home, mine is an auto gives around 10.8 to 11 average, my cousin has a manual gives him around 12-13 and this is also a torque converter box and the fortuner has enough torque to move a house.

Before you go and start calling manufacturers morons, know this, it is not moronic to have a firm business plan and adhere to the principles of demand and supply. How many petrol AT cars sell that you have listed above, have you ever though of that and the fact that most of the R and D cost is pared by extensive use of these boxes worldwide so it does not pinch manufacturers to give them. Do you think that if there is money to be made they will simply say, we don't need the extra money and walk away. AT demand in a diesel Brio, swift, i10 segment is very negligible to make anyone warrant the costs to manufacture one.

And if you are ready to sacrifice everything, just buy a petrol automatic that is the best option or you can always make a diesel AT box yourself.

This post is not on the topic and I feel that any further debate will just go more off topic. PM me if you want to add anything.
So, in your opinion a diesel AT hatch will bomb? People avoid petrol cars like plague these days due to high petrol prices. And still there are good many number of petrol AT cars selling. Is that not any indication? But diesel AT will fail? They have given petrol ATs a shot. Why not give a diesel AT also a shot and see if it fails rather than assuming before hand that it would fail.

One more thing. Keep your sarcasm to yourself. You are not my friend or buddy.
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Old 3rd September 2013, 23:50   #234
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Being a Owner of Fluidic Verna for a year, I have been a greatest fan of Hyundai. The first lady of the family wanted to change her hatch to a better one than the Alto Lxi which has been used for long time. Started the search with Figo, but just like entering a saree mart, the first lady's search expanded to all petrol hatch cars in the segment. There came the news about Grand i10 and we were patient for two weeks to get the details of the hatch of the year.

After looking at the below on road price at chennai, the features of the grand i10 looked seductive. But selection process became more wandering. (I have taken the penultimate models for many except i20.)

Grand i10 Sports – 5,81,607
i 20 Magna – 5,86,047
Figo Zxi – 5,47,500
Swift Vxi – 5,80,145
Brio V - 5,91,099

Each of the above models are unique with their own features, where should I keep my bet is still undecided.

I like to go with Grand i10 sports, but when I can get i20 magna for the same price except sparing few features of sports version, why shouldn’t I opt for it. Infact, i20 is more spacious and has add on features that even grand i10 doesn’t have.

Although not much difference in price of above petrol hatchbacks, I wish to get the BHPians inputs for 2nd opinion.

Am I missing something in my search?
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Old 4th September 2013, 00:30   #235
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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
So, in your opinion a diesel AT hatch will bomb? People avoid petrol cars like plague these days due to high petrol prices. And still there are good many number of petrol AT cars selling. Is that not any indication? But diesel AT will fail? They have given petrol ATs a shot. Why not give a diesel AT also a shot and see if it fails rather than assuming before hand that it would fail.

One more thing. Keep your sarcasm to yourself. You are not my friend or buddy.
So, in your opinion a diesel AT hatch will bomb?

No, don't read between the lines, I explicitly said that a diesel AT at the segment of Swift and brio and Figo or what ever will not work because of high cost of diesel components and AT set up not to mention R and D cost which will be borne by the customer.

People avoid petrol cars like plague these days due to high petrol prices.

Where is this plague you speak of, do you even know that that Diesel is almost 52 in Delhi and with more hikes coming in, Diesel will be around 64-65 in the very near future, maybe just after elections. India has to do it otherwise we will be automatically relegated to the Dark ages and then things like AT boxes will not even matter. At a price of 64-65, what benefit do you have of an AT diesel over an AT automatic petrol. Unless you drive in excess around 35,000 to 40,000 km a year, you will not even be able to beak even the costs of the diesel AT setup. And the petrol AT's you speak of are a niche, people are not flocking stores to pick up petrol AT's. As costs of production are low and technology cheaply exists, companies don't mind giving petrol AT boxes, if the above case was not there, I can bet petrol AT cars would have been a rarity as well.

Nobody gave petrol AT's a shot. Let me explain, Hyundai, Honda, Toyota and other such companies have a huge footprint in the North American markets, where AT boxes are really popular, so most of these guys have a lot of tech available on AT boxes, which they can now use on other markets, they do not have to actually design from the ground up, rather it is a copy paste job. So it does not cost them much to give AT. Least they can safely satisfy people in India who can't live without AT's.

Seeing if a diesel fails is not as simple or straight forward as it sounds. You are asking to create a new technology. It is highly cost intensive. If their calculations say it is not feasible it probably isn't.

One more thing if an AT is such a big requirement for you, why don't you just get a petrol AT, if you are ready to sacrifice everything for an AT box, the AT box will be not very fuel efficient but it will certainly give you convenience.
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Old 4th September 2013, 02:05   #236
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What I cannot understand is why the prices of the Asta (Option) with safety features have not been announced. Or is there a mistake in the brochure, which could mean the Asta comes with the safety features as standard? I doubt it and am waiting for some clarity on the prices of the Asta and Asta (Option).
After going through Hyundai India's website which now has all the details and the prices, I have found the answer to my own question. The prices mentioned during the launch are actually for the Asta(O) with the safety features The price difference between the Sportz and Asta(O) variants in both petrol and diesel is ~Rs.60k ex-showroom. The prices for the Asta variant have not been announced yet, but one can make an educated guess that it would be about Rs.20k more than the corresponding Sportz variant.

My request to Hyundai India would be this - although the Asta variants are listed on the features comparison page, their prices haven't been announced yet. I think it would be better to completely drop the idea of launching the Asta variant without the safety features. Instead, it would make much more sense to launch a variant called Sportz(O) between the Sportz and the Asta. This new variant should have a driver's airbag, ABS and adjustable rear head-rests (in addition to the standard features on the Sportz) and it should be priced about Rs.20k to Rs.25 k over the equivalent Sportz trim level.

If such a trim level is introduced, customers who would have otherwise settled for a Magna or a Sportz would be tempted to pay the extra money and go for the corresponding Sportz(O) because of the additional safety features which would be well worth the premium. This is the exact same strategy you already follow for the i20 where the Sportz variant with driver's airbag and ABS sells more than the other variants (at least from what I have observed).
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Old 4th September 2013, 07:08   #237
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Originally Posted by RSR View Post
The prices mentioned during the launch are actually for the Asta(O) with the safety features The price difference between the Sportz and Asta(O) variants in both petrol and diesel is ~Rs.60k ex-showroom. The prices for the Asta variant have not been announced yet, but one can make an educated guess that it would be about Rs.20k more than the corresponding Sportz variant.
Are you sure about this? It looks to me like they have not announced the price of Asta with airbags to keep the price range sane and instead stopped with the lower Asta variant to show that it undercuts Swift variant by variant.

Not sure if Asta(O) in their site is the one without ABS and Airbags. IIRC, I think they did something similar with i20 Sports(O) in the past where alloy was optional, where the Optional variant was the one 'without alloy wheels'.

There is no way Hyundai can offer the below features for 60k:
  • Dual airbags
  • ABS
  • Alloy wheels (this alone should take ~ 20k!)
  • Rear wiper and defogger
  • Rear spoiler
  • Bluetooth audio
  • Leather wrapped steering with audio and BT controls
  • Driver seat height adjuster

If we exclude ABS and airbags, 60k for remaining feature set seems more likely. Price could be another 40k higher for fully loaded variant, which takes it over Swift's price I guess.

Last edited by zenren : 4th September 2013 at 07:25.
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Old 4th September 2013, 07:53   #238
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Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Are you sure about this? It looks to me like they have not announced the price of Asta with airbags to keep the price range sane and instead stopped with the lower Asta variant to show that it undercuts Swift variant by variant.

Not sure if Asta(O) in their site is the one without ABS and Airbags. IIRC, I think they did something similar with i20 Sports(O) in the past where alloy was optional.
Now you have planted that doubt again in my mind

The prices mentioned on the site list only the Asta(O) after the Sportz, and there is no Asta mentioned. So that is what I assumed.

But let's do a rough calculation here with a competing car that follows a similar variant strategy with the Option Pack having only 2 airbags, ABS over the top end variant - the Chevy Beat. The Beat LT(O) is priced ~Rs.50k extra ex-showroom, over the corresponding Beat LT variant. But, the Beat LT does not have alloys which are available only along with the safety features. So from this, we can take the price of 2 airbags, ABS and 14" alloys to be ~Rs.50k from a manufacturer's point of view.

[One small difference is that the Grand i10 Asta(O) has only 2 airbags and ABS over the Asta, along with a different (more premium) alloy wheel design - alloys are already standard on the Asta. ]

If we consider the list you've mentioned, once we discount Rs.50k for the 2 airbags, ABS and alloys, we are left with ~Rs.10k for 5 features - driver's seat height adjuster, rear wash/wipe & defogger, rear spoiler, additional Bluetooth feature on audio and leather steering wrap with audio & Bluetooth buttons.

Rear spoiler and leather wrap for the steering shouldn't cost much (at most, only Rs.2k) when done at the factory, considering these can be added for relatively cheap as accessories. So we are left with the audio Bluetooth feature, steering buttons and rear wash/wipe & defogger which we have to fit within Rs.8k. Out of which only the rear wash/wipe & defogger requires a completely extra unit, as only the adjustment mechanism for the seat (not the seat itself), steering buttons (not the wheel itself) and Bluetooth feature (not the audio unit itself) is extra. These should work out to about the remaining amount which is Rs.8k, the lion's share of which would be taken up by the rear wash/wipe & defogger unit.

So yes, after doing a cost analysis, I think Hyundai have provided the prices of the Asta(O) with safety features on their website. Of course, I wish someone would confirm this as soon as possible

Last edited by RSR : 4th September 2013 at 08:03.
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Old 4th September 2013, 08:20   #239
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Originally Posted by zenren View Post

Are you sure about this? It looks to me like they have not announced the price of Asta with airbags to keep the price range sane and instead stopped with the lower Asta variant to show that it undercuts Swift variant by variant.

Not sure if Asta(O) in their site is the one without ABS and Airbags. IIRC, I think they did something similar with i20 Sports(O) in the past where alloy was optional, where the Optional variant was the one 'without alloy wheels'.
I called up the hyundai dealer and they said the price for Asta model with ABS AND AIRBAGS IS 7.50 lakhs on road. Thought it was really a good price considering the value it offers. I am going for test drive today.
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Old 4th September 2013, 08:29   #240
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Originally Posted by RSR View Post
Now you have planted that doubt again in my mind

The prices mentioned on the site list only the Asta(O) after the Sportz, and there is no Asta mentioned. So that is what I assumed.

So yes, after doing a cost analysis, I think Hyundai have provided the prices of the Asta(O) with safety features on their website. Of course, I wish someone would confirm this as soon as possible
Nice analysis. Chevy would do literally anything to stay above water, which is not the case with Hyundai. They have probably adjusted the discounts into the variant pricing since they know it is difficult to move these cars from the showroom without discounts anyway. The price of all the other Grand i10 variants would have been much lesser if Hyundai followed this pricing approach for other features too.

One thing to note here is the difference between an aftermarket accessory and a company fitted part. When features are factory fitted, Hyundai would need to give excise duty and other taxes for it since it would be part of the production cost. So the 60k difference we see already includes duty and tax components as well inside it. It would again get taxed with the road tax when it comes to on road price.

From what I remember, Hyundai i10 OEM spoiler used to cost ~9k and the price difference for i20 Sportz with and without alloys was around 20k, though I'm expecting a steel wheel in the boot in this case. If alloys were really that cheap for Hyundai, I don't think they would have changed the spare wheel to steel in Verna now.

Most importantly, Hyundai is never known for accuracy in their website.
Their official site of Grand i10 has images where the illumination for mp3 player is shown in white (see the full dashboard view) as well as blue (close up shots)

Link - http://www.hyundai.com/in/en/Showroo...PIP/index.html

All said, we as end customers would be happy if I'm proved wrong

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I called up the hyundai dealer and they said the price for Asta model with ABS AND AIRBAGS IS 7.50 lakhs on road. Thought it was really a good price considering the value it offers. I am going for test drive today.
Just to be sure, is it for petrol or diesel variant? 7.5L OTR seems nice if its for diesel. Also, what is the road tax rate in your state? Please check if they are giving 4 or 5 alloys.

Last edited by zenren : 4th September 2013 at 08:42.
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