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Old 3rd September 2014, 20:34   #1051
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
And so what explains the higher fuel efficiency from Ciaz having even more powerful variant of the same engine? Bigger size of the boot? Does not sound logic at all.

Do you have coefficient of friction figures for both Swift and Ciaz so that we know how much better the larger and weightier sedan is compared to the hatchback so much so that negative the size and weight disadvantage, it still gives an almost 15% improvement in economy with the more powerful variant of the same engine?

We need to check at what rpm does the Ciaz cruise at 100 kph. If the difference isnt much then I cannot see how the larger car is 15% more fuel economical.
Sorry to interrupt your discussion, but please allow me to chip in a few points :

1) Internal Friction. Reduced internal friction can give out better efficiency as less energy is lost.

2) Tuning : K12M powers Ritz, Swift and Swift Dzire. Ritz is faster than Swift mainly due to tuning. In today's generation of ECU controlled powertrains, ECU calibration plays a noticeable role.

3) Less mass of moving parts in engine. From time to time, manufacturers try to reduce moving parts mass mainly for piston, etc. This, coupled with less friction helps in improving FE.

4) Gearing : Needs no explanation as how it can make or break good FE in both city and highway.

Another practical example : K10B in Celerio feels much more revv friendly and responsive as compared to K10B in Wagon R. A few of above mentioned might be contributing factor.
About Aerodynamcis, I am not able to recall exact ratio, but all I remember is that above 60 kmph, maximum energy is lost to clear the air.
Lets not forget few other factors like injection timing, valve timing, ignition timing, combustion chamber design, etc. These parameters are constantly under fine tuning by manufacturers to evolve an engine series/design.
The arrival of ECU means these can be constantly fine tuned ( or optimized ).
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Old 3rd September 2014, 20:50   #1052
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
And so what explains the higher fuel efficiency from Ciaz having even more powerful variant of the same engine? Bigger size of the boot? Does not sound logic at all.

Do you have coefficient of friction figures for both Swift and Ciaz so that we know how much better the larger and weightier sedan is compared to the hatchback so much so that negative the size and weight disadvantage, it still gives an almost 15% improvement in economy with the more powerful variant of the same engine?

We need to check at what rpm does the Ciaz cruise at 100 kph. If the difference isnt much then I cannot see how the larger car is 15% more fuel economical.
Buddy, Sankar has clearly laid things out in his last post; When at cruising speeds, aerodynamics matter more than the extra weight the Ciaz has. Weight only hinders economy during acceleration. It is simple physics. So I don't know why it does not "sound logic" at all

To test this yourself, go out on the highway and cruise at around 120 with no luggage, then bring along 3 of your friends and do the same. Compare the difference in fuel efficiency brought about by the weight change (surely nearly 200 kilos) with the same difference in fuel efficiency brought about by hampered aerodynamics for which you have to do the same test but instead of changing the number of people, do it with the windows rolled up and the windows rolled down. Infact, on the highway, you will acheive a better average with the windows rolled up even if the aircon is on (that ought to put things in perspective for you)

I see that you also believe the more powerful 1.3mjd ought to be less fuel efficient than the one in the Swift. Infact it is more powerful and more efficient since instead of having a fixed geometry turbo, it is equipped with a variable geometry one which allows the angle of the vanes leading air to the turbine, to change, altering the effective area of the turbine and thus also, the aspect ratio. This manipulation of the vanes allows you to reach optimal boost pressure in a wider set of conditions and rpm band (this is also why there is less turbo lag in a VGT as compared to an FGT). So as you can see, this makes for a more powerful and more importantly (to this argument and to most of us Indians) a more efficient motor.

If you are so keen on knowing more about this, you would have also have read about how Maruti has further worked on tuning the engine, getting gear ratios right and reducing frictional loss.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 3rd September 2014 at 20:53.
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Old 3rd September 2014, 21:07   #1053
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

^
So, does ARAI FE measures only cruising speed efficiency?
If so, it should never be considered.

Fact is - fuel is used mainly in acceleration and braking and again re-accelerating. Crusing at steady speed in top gear hardly consumes any fuel in comparison.

And to claim Dzire is more fuel efficient than Swift due to a boot is illogical. Dzire hardly has any boot to start with! So going by the same argument, the longer/bigger/heavier sedans will be more efficient than their hatch counterparts. Does not make sense to me.

Either Maruti has made some significant improvements to the engine (unlikely) or played around the gear ratios to suit ARAI tests (likely) or something fishy with ARAI tests
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Old 3rd September 2014, 21:13   #1054
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

This car appears to be an imminent replacement for the SX 4. So the SX 4 too joins some Maruti models to die an unnatural death like the Esteem, Baleno and perhaps the A Star. The SX 4 has become popular in the bureaucratic circles, especially in Delhi as a replacement for the Ambassador.

Hence, if the Ciaz sales peter out after an initial good start (like the SX 4), the government orders may keep it selling upto some hundred cars every month.

The problem in this segment is that buyers look for brands like Honda, Hyundai (the Verna still sells well) ,Volkswagen and sometimes Skoda or Toyota.

It is not known as to why Maruti or Suzuki models priced above Rs 7 to 8 L dont sell. The Baleno, SX 4, Vitara and Kizashi are good examples. Buyers want the smaller cars from MSIL that are no bigger than the DZire.

Only time will tell how popular the Ciaz gets with the buyers.
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Old 3rd September 2014, 21:14   #1055
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Default Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1, the SX4 replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
^
So, does ARAI FE measures only cruising speed efficiency?
If so, it should never be considered.
ARAI calculates the FE for a particular driving cycle. This is fixed for all cars. FE is actually calculated from emissions and not from any fuel calculations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
And to claim Dzire is more fuel efficient than Swift due to a boot is illogical.

Perhaps you should read more on turbulence. A boot, even though small, plays a big role in smooth aerodynamics at the rear, compared to a hatch.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 3rd September 2014 at 21:17.
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Old 3rd September 2014, 21:39   #1056
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

As suspected light weight has it's downsides from ndtv review
"So far so good, but we were only getting started and we soon came across the thing that failed to impress us - the lag in the diesel engine. First, the turbo takes its own sweet time to kick in, and fails to impress even after it does. Then there's the noise levels; it is very intrusive and the cabin is constantly buzzing. Anyway, the Ciaz glides over bumpy roads on the soft suspension setup, making it quite a comfortable drive, especially on low-speeds on city roads. That said, the ride tends to be, umm.. bouncy on uneven terrain at high-speeds. On the highway, the Ciaz fares well in terms handling and braking but the steering lacks the confidence to let you push it around corners."
Source http://auto.ndtv.com/news/maruti-suz...-review-658546.
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Old 3rd September 2014, 22:27   #1057
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

Terribly UN-impressed with what I've seen on the CIAZ. If Maruti want to put their heads in-front in the same segment as Verna and City, the first thing they should have put in the CIAZ is a 1.5L or 1.6 L Diesel.
Having a 1.3lr Multijet is going to turn-off a lot of potential buyers. This will seem like a segment below to most, even with all the features.

I agree with some comments above, that CC doesn't matter, but it matters to most of the Indians' mentality. Maruti should be aware that they are trying to catch up in one of the demanding segments where Hyundai and Honda rule. People buy a 10L+ car more out for prestige than doing the daily run. Changing the mentality of buyers should have been the first option ie giving a more powerful engine.
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Old 3rd September 2014, 22:29   #1058
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
ARAI calculates the FE for a particular driving cycle. This is fixed for all cars. FE is actually calculated from emissions and not from any fuel calculations.




Perhaps you should read more on turbulence. A boot, even though small, plays a big role in smooth aerodynamics at the rear, compared to a hatch.
Sir, thanks for your advice .. sorry if I am not learned enough to comment.
But can you tell me what's the CD for a Dzire vs a Swift vs a Ciaz? And what is the relation between CD (aero) and FE? I mean if my CD is 10% better but my car is 10% heavier, do I get better FE or less FE? Please educate. Well, a Merc S class has less CD than a Swift. I dont know what should I conclude from that.

Perhaps, I needed to be more obvious in my statements.

Anyways, this is a Maruti car..so there are plenty of fanboys here. Happens on other forums be it a Tata or a Fiat.

Now, coming to the point, do you want me to believe that a bigger/heavier car has 15% better FE due to a slightly less CD (did I use the right jargon)? Only if things were so simple. People would be breaking FE records by adding a longer boot.

Agreed that aerodynamics plays a major role while cruising but what about acceleration and decceleration cycle. Isn't it true that most fuel is burnt during that phase vs cruising (Or do I need to read something again )? Shouldn't that be taken into consideration by any tests which measures FE? Just because it is the same for every car doesn't make it a good reference. It has to try and mimic the real life situations as closely as possible. Now, since the manufacturers know very well how the tests are done, they may very well setup the car to get that record-breaking ARAI number.. 26.2 of the Ciaz vs 26+ for the City... Too close, isnt it? Anyways, same applies for Honda and other manufacturers as well.



Ciaz might be truly a lot more fuel efficient than the Swift but for that to happen, Maruti would have done something more significant than just aerodynamics. The real life numbers will do the talking anyways. Hope I am clear this time.

Last edited by adimicra : 3rd September 2014 at 22:32.
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Old 3rd September 2014, 22:30   #1059
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anjan_c2007 View Post
This car appears to be an imminent replacement for the SX 4. So the SX 4 too joins some Maruti models to die an unnatural death like the Esteem, Baleno and perhaps the A Star. The SX 4 has become popular in the bureaucratic circles, especially in Delhi as a replacement for the Ambassador.

Hence, if the Ciaz sales peter out after an initial good start (like the SX 4), the government orders may keep it selling upto some hundred cars every month.

The problem in this segment is that buyers look for brands like Honda, Hyundai (the Verna still sells well) ,Volkswagen and sometimes Skoda or Toyota.

It is not known as to why Maruti or Suzuki models priced above Rs 7 to 8 L dont sell. The Baleno, SX 4, Vitara and Kizashi are good examples. Buyers want the smaller cars from MSIL that are no bigger than the DZire.

Only time will tell how popular the Ciaz gets with the buyers.

Very rightly said. Maruti probably has an image amongst Indian buyers as that of a company good for producing hatchbacks and low budget cars which are cheap to maintain as well. Once a consumer decides to buy something exceeding 10 lac,they move on to more global brands and Honda becomes their first choice!! No wonder Maruti has so many failures in this segment including Baleno,SX4, Kizashi, Vitara. And I am not an exception too,have booked the city already and the wait period is never ending,but still not feeling confident enough to go ahead and cancel city and book Ciaz!! Even my father in law who is an ardent Maruti fan( driving Maruti since 17 years) is not convinced for canceling City. This I guess is the condition with most Indian buyers. All about image perception!!


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Old 3rd September 2014, 23:10   #1060
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

Quote:
Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
Perhaps, I needed to be more obvious in my statements.

Anyways, this is a Maruti car..so there are plenty of fanboys here. Happens on other forums be it a Tata or a Fiat.

Now, coming to the point, do you want me to believe that a bigger/heavier car has 15% better FE due to a slightly less CD (did I use the right jargon)? Only if things were so simple. People would be breaking FE records by adding a longer boot.

Ciaz might be truly a lot more fuel efficient than the Swift but for that to happen, Maruti would have done something more significant than just aerodynamics. The real life numbers will do the talking anyways. Hope I am clear this time.
Please go through aaggoswami's post as well as mine. No one here is saying that the car is more fuel efficient solely due to aerodynamics. Aerodynamics play an important role for sure, but it is also the fact that Maruti has worked on reducing frictional loss, selecting optimum gear ratios and fiddling about with the tune. Also, the VGT is more fuel efficient than the FGT version of the 1.3mjd. Are those all reason enough for you?

Oh and before you go jumping your guns again, let me make it clear that none of us believe the car will give the same figures as ARAI quotes. However, taking everything into account, it does not seem that difficult for the Ciaz to give same if not slightly better mileage figures than the current Swift.

Really sad to see someone this ignorant. We have been trying to put across detailed enough, easy to understand technical reasons as to how the Ciaz could achieve more fuel efficiency and instead of going through everything you have decided to call some of us fanboys. This is a forum filled with enthusiasts and if you go through Crazy Driver's page, you will see that he also owns a Fiat Punto that he is very passionate about as well as a Hyundai Xcent. It is easy to make curt remarks but please look at everything with an open mind before you do.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 3rd September 2014 at 23:11.
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Old 3rd September 2014, 23:51   #1061
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

Quote:
Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
But can you tell me what's the CD for a Dzire vs a Swift vs a Ciaz? And what is the relation between CD (aero) and FE? I mean if my CD is 10% better but my car is 10% heavier, do I get better FE or less FE? Please educate. Well, a Merc S class has less CD than a Swift. I dont know what should I conclude from that.
Firstly Dzire and Swift have different turbos and in different tunes. Secondly, the ARAI figures between Dzire and Swift are marginal. 23.4kmpl for the Dzire and 22.9Kmpl for the Swift. Both are of same weight. The 0.5Kmpl is definitely possible to the small boot which smoothens the airflow out considerably. It doesn't have to be a long boot but the sloping rear windshield plus the small boot will definitely help.

Secondly, your S class and Swift example for sedan vs Swift CoD is quite silly cause CoD is just one factor. A V6 engine in the S class even if it's got a low CoD will obviously not be efficient.

Here we are comparing 2 cars with same engine, one with small boot and different profile vs the hatch.

Incase of the Ciaz, they have achieved 26.1kmpl. As per other reports this has been achieved by ECU tuning, reducing frictional losses (possible by using some different components), gear ratios. Aero will definitely play a part but the huge difference is because of the VGT engine.

The Swift and Dzire weight 1080kgs, whereas this Ciaz weighs just 25kgs more. Power and torque are better which means the engine doesn't have to work as hard as well. The Ertiga in comparison weighs 1235Kgs a whopping 130 kilos more than the Ciaz with the same engine.

If you do the maths, it's quite possible to get the ARAI rating Maruti have got.
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Old 3rd September 2014, 23:59   #1062
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What I think is:

Having a boot let's the air flow easily from the car and away from it in a smoother line without any abrupt change in air direction.

In a hatchback, the air starts from hood then goes along the roof and suddenly cuts down from boot. This disturbs the flow and does make the car slightly unstable.

In a boot laden car, flow is smooth from hood to boot. The angle in which the air cuts the boot in a sedan is less sharp as compared to hatchback making it sticky to the ground / road it travels on.

Fuel efficiency will get disturbed a lot with air flow a.k.a turbulence.

More the resistance, more the fuel consumption and vice-versa.

Anurag.

Last edited by a4anurag : 4th September 2014 at 00:07.
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Old 4th September 2014, 06:26   #1063
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

Hi guys a few points. But before that a disclaimer too, I have not done extensive online research on the topic of fuel efficiency vs drag, just some reading and here is what I feel.

1. Typically between the Sedan and Hatchback versions of the same car, there can be a difference of almost 0.02 - 0.03 in the drag coefficient.

2. A difference of .01 in the Cd 'can' lead to a difference of almost .09 in fuel efficiency figures.

3. While this is a significant difference, it means that all other things same, a sedan version of the hatchback can by the virtue of just having a boot, result in fuel savings of almost .15-.2 km/ltr. Further difference can be effected by having slight changes in the tuning.

4. Comming to Ciaz and the Swift, the former is designed much more aerodynamically than the swift which can result in much higher reduction of Cd than what can be achieved by adding a boot. Add that with the fact that there has been only a slight increase in weight of the car and also the addition of VGT against FGT, it is quite possible to achieve significant reductions in fuel consumption. Whether that can lead to a difference of almost 4 kmpl? I dont know. But let us also not forget that Maruti are the masters at tuning this engine.
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Old 4th September 2014, 07:07   #1064
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

Suzuki being a manufacturer who pretty well knows the pulse of Indian customer, I am not surprised that they managed a claimed figure of 26.1 kmpl with the Ciaz. However insignificant the difference is, a best-in-class FE tagline can really work against the immediate rival Honda City iDTEC with 26 kmpl. It looks like finally Suzuki has a potential chartbuster in this segment.
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Old 4th September 2014, 08:49   #1065
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This FE discussion is really OT and been discussed to death. Request all to discuss the car and put the FE discussion to rest. Thnx.
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