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Old 4th September 2014, 08:52   #1066
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Do you have coefficient of friction figures for both Swift and Ciaz so that we know how much better the larger and weightier sedan is compared to the hatchback so much so that negative the size and weight disadvantage, it still gives an almost 15% improvement in economy with the more powerful variant of the same engine?
Do you follow ecomodders? There people get more fuel efficiency after adding weight to their cars in the form of kammback rear, elaborate boat tails, under trays etc.

If you want to read more about aero this book may be of some help. It will clear your doubts regarding weight vs aerodynamics and efficiency.

Aerodynamics of Road Vehicles: From Fluid Mechanics to Vehicle Engineering ([Proceedings] / SAE)

Btw when cruising the the more powerful 1.3 vgt need not necessarily make more power than the 75bhp 1.3 fgt. Instead the 1.3vgt with its ecu controlled turbo can operate more efficiently than the fgt if its programmed that way.
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Old 4th September 2014, 08:59   #1067
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

Does anyone have any details on the ARAI driving cycle? How many stops, cruising speed and duration of the course?

Hopefully Honda will not ask ARAI to re-test City by modifying something to claim the top honours !
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Old 4th September 2014, 09:01   #1068
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

Quote:
Originally Posted by vibbs View Post
Hi guys a few points. But before that a disclaimer too, I have not done extensive online research on the topic of fuel efficiency vs drag, just some reading and here is what I feel.

1. Typically between the Sedan and Hatchback versions of the same car, there can be a difference of almost 0.02 - 0.03 in the drag coefficient.

2. A difference of .01 in the Cd 'can' lead to a difference of almost .09 in fuel efficiency figures.

3. While this is a significant difference, it means that all other things same, a sedan version of the hatchback can by the virtue of just having a boot, result in fuel savings of almost .15-.2 km/ltr. Further difference can be effected by having slight changes in the tuning.

4. Comming to Ciaz and the Swift, the former is designed much more aerodynamically than the swift which can result in much higher reduction of Cd than what can be achieved by adding a boot. Add that with the fact that there has been only a slight increase in weight of the car and also the addition of VGT against FGT, it is quite possible to achieve significant reductions in fuel consumption. Whether that can lead to a difference of almost 4 kmpl? I dont know. But let us also not forget that Maruti are the masters at tuning this engine.
Have a look here. It clearly defines how manufacturers calculate FE by playing with vehicle weight. There is no other marvel of Engg involved. Honda, Suzuki, etc.all play with this loophole.
http://www.theicct.org/blogs/inertia...dead-hand-past
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Old 4th September 2014, 09:29   #1069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Buddy, Sankar has clearly laid things out in his last post; When at cruising speeds, aerodynamics matter more than the extra weight the Ciaz has. Weight only hinders economy during acceleration. It is simple physics. So I don't know why it does not "sound logic" at all
I do not mean to be offensive but what is your point? The lighter car will consume less fuel while accelerating and less fuel while cruising than a heavier car. We are not comparing something like a Wagon R with poor aerodynamics to Ciaz. Swift has a pretty streamlined body and even if Ciaz is slipperier, I can't see how that alone can make a difference of 15%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
I see that you also believe the more powerful 1.3mjd ought to be less fuel efficient than the one in the Swift. Infact it is more powerful and more efficient since instead of having a fixed geometry turbo, it is equipped with a variable geometry one which allows the angle of the vanes leading air to the turbine, to change, altering the effective area of the turbine and thus also, the aspect ratio. This manipulation of the vanes allows you to reach optimal boost pressure in a wider set of conditions and rpm band (this is also why there is less turbo lag in a VGT as compared to an FGT). So as you can see, this makes for a more powerful and more importantly (to this argument and to most of us Indians) a more efficient motor.
You actually have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. Do you know how a turbocharged engine works? A turbocharger draws in ambient air and compresses it before it enters intake manifold, creating a pressure difference that allows more air to go into the engine than it would if the pressure was just the atmospheric pressure. More also means more fuel goes into the engine and hence more power. The fuel saving comes by the virtue of a higher powered engine having to 'work less' relatively than a low powered engine at the same speed. The keyword here is that more fuel is pumped into the cylinder not less.

The variable geometry turbocharger will allow higher boost pressure compared to an FGT at lower rpm and in the same breath it will also consume more fuel proportionate to the increase in boost pressure giving more power and torque. Again the increase in efficiency will come from the engine having to work less and not because the engine will consume less fuel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Do you follow ecomodders? There people get more fuel efficiency after adding weight to their cars in the form of kammback rear, elaborate boat tails, under trays etc.

If you want to read more about aero this book may be of some help. It will clear your doubts regarding weight vs aerodynamics and efficiency.

Aerodynamics of Road Vehicles: From Fluid Mechanics to Vehicle Engineering ([Proceedings] / SAE)
Unfortunately I don't but I am not for a moment suggesting that aerodynamics cannot make a difference. Please do not loose context here, the context being Maruti Dzire/Swift vs Ciaz. Ciaz may be good aerodynamically, but so is Swift/Dzire. I cannot fathom a 15% increase in efficiency purely being attributed to aero when compared to Swift/Dzire and that is ignoring weight and fuel penalty of a more powerful engine.

We need more data to be conclusive.

Last edited by benbsb29 : 4th September 2014 at 10:01. Reason: Merged back-to-back posts.
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Old 4th September 2014, 09:39   #1070
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
I do not mean to be offensive but what is your point? The lighter car will consume less fuel while accelerating and less fuel while cruising than a heavier car. We are not comparing something like a Wagon R with poor aerodynamics to Ciaz. Swift has a pretty streamlined body and even if Ciaz is slipperier, I can't see how that alone can make a difference of 15%.


You actually have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. Do you know how a turbocharged engine works? A turbocharger draws in ambient air and compresses it before it enters intake manifold, creating a pressure difference that allows more air to go into the engine than it would if the pressure was just the atmospheric pressure. More also means more fuel goes into the engine and hence more power. The fuel saving comes by the virtue of a higher powered engine having to 'work less' relatively than a low powered engine at the same speed. The keyword here is that more fuel is pumped into the cylinder not less.

The variable geometry turbocharger will allow higher boost pressure compared to an FGT at lower rpm and in the same breath it will also consume more fuel proportionate to the increase in boost pressure giving more power and torque. Again the increase in efficiency will come from the engine having to work less and not because the engine will consume less fuel.
LOL I see that you haven't bothered reading mine or everyone else's posts. Firstly, from the number of reasons that I have stated, it is quite silly for you to believe that I think efficiency was achieved solely due to aerodynamics. Secondly, it is a very well known fact that VGTs are more efficient than FGTs. Why don't you do some reading up yourself? If you really bothered reading and understanding what I said, you would not be questioning my knowledge on this topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Incase of the Ciaz, they have achieved 26.1kmpl. As per other reports this has been achieved by ECU tuning, reducing frictional losses (possible by using some different components), gear ratios. Aero will definitely play a part but the huge difference is because of the VGT engine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vibbs View Post
4. Comming to Ciaz and the Swift, the former is designed much more aerodynamically than the swift which can result in much higher reduction of Cd than what can be achieved by adding a boot. Add that with the fact that there has been only a slight increase in weight of the car and also the addition of VGT against FGT, it is quite possible to achieve significant reductions in fuel consumption. Whether that can lead to a difference of almost 4 kmpl? I dont know. But let us also not forget that Maruti are the masters at tuning this engine.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 4th September 2014 at 09:42.
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Old 4th September 2014, 10:07   #1071
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

Quote:
Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
LOL I see that you haven't bothered reading mine or everyone else's posts. Firstly, from the number of reasons that I have stated, it is quite silly for you to believe that I think efficiency was achieved solely due to aerodynamics. Secondly, it is a very well known fact that VGTs are more efficient than FGTs. Why don't you do some reading up yourself? If you really bothered reading and understanding what I said, you would not be questioning my knowledge on this topic.
Guess you need to go back and read how and where the discussion started. Peace out.
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Old 4th September 2014, 10:48   #1072
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

Coming back to the OT. Have any Team-Bhpers booked a Ciaz? Are any further details available regarding the prices, delivery time etc?
One query on the Zxi variant - there is one post that mentions that the parking camera display is on the IRVM. Is that confirmed news?
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Old 4th September 2014, 11:00   #1073
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

I just rechecked the zigwheels photos, and the ZXi has a 5' AVN head unit, which doubles up for rev cam and navigation.
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Old 4th September 2014, 11:03   #1074
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

Instead of a heated debate based on limited information available to us, we should rather wait for real world performance of the car. Owner reviews and feedback will settle things over time.

The car to me looks just right. Simple uncluttered design, wont offend anyone by being "in-your-face" bold. The interiors too have adequate equipment to keep most people satisfied.
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Old 4th September 2014, 11:12   #1075
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The car has no soul or character but does just about everything right in a practical sense. Those going for badge will opt for City and those who are badge averse and VFM concious would gulp the Ciaz. It is a good no nonsense car that is extremely practical. It doesn't excite your heart but you will never go wrong with it. It will have good resale and is nicely kitted considering it's price range.
As far as power well the old Honda City had 80 odd BHP iirc. However it set the sales on fire. I had the old new Fiesta pre face lift and with mere 90 bhp and 200 nm the engine was a hoot to drive. Million times more refined then Ventos or Honda 's not to mention silent. So if the DDIS can deliver same performance I won't complain too much.
What color you guys think is the best. I find Maroon or Silver to be good. But not totally convinced. Is black a looker?
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Old 4th September 2014, 11:56   #1076
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

The Sales-Rep mentioned that only 6 colors show up while booking currently. The Eriga brown and the maroon don't seem to be shown as options yet.
As per him, the car will be probably priced between 7.5lacs toppping out at 12lacs for Diesel top end. They havent seen the car yet but did attend a small orientation session of sorts at RO. The trainings are scheduled starting next week. He didn't have any other information and i ended up showing him all the content on the web on my phone.

He had only 6 bookings until last night at 8pm so looks like MSIL hasn't drummed up enough excitement yet. No cars shown in the malls and no contests or print ads / TVC yet.
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Old 4th September 2014, 12:11   #1077
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

Quote:
Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
Anyways, this is a Maruti car..so there are plenty of fanboys here. Happens on other forums be it a Tata or a Fiat.
That was totally unnecessary. Anyways -
Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem View Post
This FE discussion is really OT and been discussed to death. Request all to discuss the car and put the FE discussion to rest. Thnx.
+1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
Does anyone have any details on the ARAI driving cycle? How many stops, cruising speed and duration of the course?
Hopefully Honda will not ask ARAI to re-test City by modifying something to claim the top honours !
This is just not the right thread to discuss the FE topic to death. But i dont think we should stop the arguments either. (Whats the fun then?). Since the issue is relating to the whole ARAI episode - why dont we move the discussions here?

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post3522074 (Article on how ARAI conducts its fuel-efficiency tests)

@srishiva - Please check the above thread. Average speed is 32 kmph for the cycle, however the number of stops is not clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmig View Post
Coming back to the OT. Have any Team-Bhpers booked a Ciaz? Are any further details available regarding the prices, delivery time etc?
One query on the Zxi variant - there is one post that mentions that the parking camera display is on the IRVM. Is that confirmed news?
From the earlier posts, I could see two bookings already. Booking amount is 21k. Parking camera display is on the headunit.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 4th September 2014 at 12:17.
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Old 4th September 2014, 12:35   #1078
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Parking camera display is on the headunit.
Does it mean the ZXi/ZDI also get the touch screen headunit. As per the earlier feature list shared the touch screen AVN headunit was available only on the Z+ variants
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Old 4th September 2014, 13:00   #1079
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

The car sure looks good and the effort made by Maruti should be applauded. Though its far from the prototype, its neutral looks is acceptable. The interior looks roomy, but high up seating adds to the body roll. The dash is very simple and no premium feel. I wonder who started this beige interior and chrome is premium, rage in India. I still don't understand how everyone has digested into this belief. What a sore feeling sitting inside an all beige car.
Anyways the car is an all rounder and 1000 marks better than the Etios which was called the total Indian car. City still has its brand image high up to beat the ciaz, but pricing is crucial and the waiting period.
Verna is dying out of the race and I doubt any face lift can put it back on track but an all new sedan from the Hyundai is what I would like.
Waiting for the in flesh look and feel, plus the real world performance.

Negatives which worry me.

Body roll
High up seat
Bumpy ride
Steering feed back
Diesel engine noise
Poor pickup
Too flimsy a car
No scope for personalizing as these days company loads the car with everything and hate the look alike feel.
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Old 4th September 2014, 13:11   #1080
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Default re: Team-BHP SCOOP: Maruti Ciaz / YL1. Scoop Pics on Page 99

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohan Mathew A View Post
Does it mean the ZXi/ZDI also get the touch screen headunit. As per the earlier feature list shared the touch screen AVN headunit was available only on the Z+ variants
Good question. I did not notice that the Z variant also had reverse camera. However, from the various reviews - it is very clear that the Z+ variant will have the camera display on the headunit.

Going by the pictures, the IRVM looks an electrochomic unit and looks similar to the ones seen on Hyundai's. Could be that the Z variant gets the display on the IRVM instead.
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