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Old 13th August 2013, 09:59   #76
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by shreyan_k10 View Post
Moreover we can't assume things about which vehicle is safe and and which is not, regardless of whether they are sold in other countries or not, simply because we don't have crash tests done here in India. Even if it is done, I'm pretty sure the test version and production version would vary. It's India after all.
True to some extent. Cars sold in India may not just be different from their global counterparts in terms of number of airbags used or having ESP etc, but even things like having collapsible steering column or cross bar between engine and cabin matter. For that matter the gauge of the metal used itself could be different in the Indian version.
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Old 13th August 2013, 10:08   #77
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by shreyan_k10 View Post
Does just passing in test really matter? What difference does it make even if they manage to earn a few stars? They stand out to be potentially unsafe vehicles nonetheless. Moreover we can't assume things about which vehicle is safe and and which is not, regardless of whether they are sold in other countries or not, simply because we don't have crash tests done here in India. Even if it is done, I'm pretty sure the test version and production version would vary. It's India after all.
Passing the test is better than not passing the test. A few stars is better than no stars is it not??

Also lets be clear, there is always potential for death and injuries in an accident. Even a 5 or higher star rated car does not mean that there is no chance of injury or even death. It just means its better than another car.

As for difference between Indian and European versions, I dont think Tata or Mahindra made huge changes to their cars before they sold it in Europe. Though obviously addition of safety features like airbags, ABS, ESP etc would have made a contribution towards passing crash safety norms. But at least the basic structure of the car would have been the same, and its the structure which is the most the most important thing during the crash.
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Old 13th August 2013, 10:27   #78
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

If all cars are mandated to have safety features like ABS, EBD, Air bags, better structural integrity, I am sure the economy of scales will prevent a huge price escalation. Large orders to the manufacturers of the respective systems will bring their cost down.

We sure have some of the top variants in segments with these features which are priced substantially higher for most budget & first time buyers; who at the first place think that migration to a car from a scooter is multiple times safe, even if the car does not have the safety features like above. The point is correct upto a certain extent as well esp when we are talking within the city limits. I had a freak accident about 2 weeks ago in the city, which I might not have survived if I was on my bike. I survived since I was in my car (Old Zen); which might not fare much better than the Alto in a crash test either. But I am concerned when I take it on the highways.

If the Govt. makes it necessary to have these features on every car, then its the look out of the manufacturers that how they keep the price competitive. This should be esp. true when the same manufacturers can sell more safe and better versions of the same car at about half the price elsewhere in the world. This exact same thing and the hue & cry happened when there was a migration from the carbureted cars to fuel injected ones. What we saw at last was that there was a marginal price increase, but the benefits were much more. This could only happen because the Courts & the Govt. mandated it, else we would have been still be busy at a garage setting that perfect carb setting.

The culprit here is not alone Maruti Suzuki, in fact, I don't see any A, B segment car which would be much safer than the Alto. In the hatchbacks, may be the Punto and the Polo would fare better. But all the likes of the Alto, Wagon-R, Nano, i10 etc. will all meet the same fate.

The situation in India can be summed pretty well when as a buyer, I have no information that which cars would be more probable to save me in the event of a crash. The ARAI has no information whatsoever on its website and neither I think anyone else here has.

There is an urgent need to set up an agency which crash tests all vehicles selling in Indian market and publishes the result too. The Govt. just taking into records the number of victims of RTAs is not acceptable; they need to come out with solutions to this menace. They need to provide better safety norms to the country so that the number comes down. Just cribbing that how many lives are lost on road and not taking any preventive action is simply not acceptable.

Last edited by saket77 : 13th August 2013 at 10:33.
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Old 13th August 2013, 10:29   #79
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Originally Posted by petroguzzler View Post
The Figo, Fiesta classic, Rexton, Etios (not sure which platform it is but my best guess is it is old) are classic examples of products which although may be good and offer value, would not match its more modern competition when it comes to crash safety.
Both the Ford Figo and the Fiesta Classic, are based on the 4th gen Fiesta that sold in the UK till the late 2000s which had a very good crash rating of 4 stars so please don't discount the Figo as an upgrade to your Indica based solely on safety. It is pretty safe though you might want to now wait for the all new figo. The Rexton is also an international product and we have got the latest one on our shores. The Etios might have a dated design but it was engineered new from the ground up and so was the Alto 800 so the addition of a driver's airbag is indeed a boon. Plus why would a company add an airbag if they saw no use for it especially in a market where the consumer doesnt care so it isnt some sales strategy.

Your argument is sound and cars like the alto k10, versa, omni, santro, sail (correct me if im wrong), tavera, rio, bolero, scorpio, do fit into that, but not the examples that you mentioned

Last edited by IshaanIan : 13th August 2013 at 10:33.
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Old 13th August 2013, 11:19   #80
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
The Etios might have a dated design but it was engineered new from the ground up and so was the Alto 800 so the addition of a driver's airbag is indeed a boon. Plus why would a company add an airbag if they saw no use for it especially in a market where the consumer doesnt care so it isnt some sales strategy.

Your argument is sound and cars like the alto k10, versa, omni, santro, sail (correct me if im wrong), tavera, rio, bolero, scorpio, do fit into that, but not the examples that you mentioned
I don't think Alto 800 is re-designed from grounds up. Its still a re-skinned Alto me thinks. As for why add an airbag, posterity?
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Old 13th August 2013, 12:24   #81
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
I understand you are talking about the XUV5OO. Such comments can be noted in most cases mate, not just the XUV5OO.

Apart from the leg injury, the car has a 4* rating. Though not great, it is a decent score.
Yes, Raj that was about the XUV500, which represents the best product in terms of concept, engineering & execution (well albeit, if M&M could have kept the design simple... no Cheetah Whiskers on front bumper, no Dragon on Cheetah Bum... oops the Taillights, but that's to me only as for many others these add to the beauty/ completeness of the whole design/ theme/ concept). In fact, I would rate the vehicle much higher over Aria for being a monocoque crossover... makes sense in real life, as for pure off-roading you use vehicles, which are capable in different sense.

Since XUV500 W8 (not the W6, which gets few lesser Airbags, & thereby the rating would be even lower) had undergone ANCAP testing & scored 4-star, which I admit is decent score. But, there is grave difference in the sheet metal used for export market to countries which are more developed than India for XUV500, & for most other vehicle as a matter of fact. Mind you, I am not speaking about the thickness/ gauge of the metal used, but, the quality if the metal/ alloy used.

I was trying to locate the thread, where I believe I have myself posted the link to review of the vehicle by a team of Australian Reviewers conducted in India, but, can't find at the moment (need o spend more time). They had quoted in one of the paras that the sheet metal will be different for their country model as compared to Indian variant. I am sure, if the Indian variant is tested, another half point would be gone with the relatively poorer quality metal used. Add to this, the ratings of W6 (which sells more IMO) would be even lower.

However, this is not restricted to M&M, even other dominant Indian - Tata is doing somewhat similar, by not offering the Safari/ Storme with front facing 3rd row seats, when they have the same for much smaller markets abroad.

Almost all manufacturers are the same, maybe the degree is different. But, being the market leader Maruti Suzuki has more responsibilities towards Indians & has to give more to Indians, which they have failed.

All of the above is the reason why I remarked, Indians are lax towards own safety & not blamed the manufacturers &/ or Govt. squarely.

Hope I have made myself clear without offending you & anyone.

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Old 13th August 2013, 13:19   #82
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Both the Ford Figo and the Fiesta Classic, are based on the 4th gen Fiesta that sold in the UK till the late 2000s which had a very good crash rating of 4 stars so please don't discount the Figo as an upgrade to your Indica based solely on safety. It is pretty safe though you might want to now wait for the all new figo.
The current figo was a global product. It WAS. Thats the point. The alto which is the topic of discussion was also a global product at a point of time (barring the slight modifications that MSIL has made). The Figo though a good product would not be able to match its more modern competition like the Swift, Micra, Polo etc. in safety.

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
The Rexton is also an international product and we have got the latest one on our shores.
The Rexton AFAIK is based on an old Mercedes M Class platform.

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
The Etios might have a dated design but it was engineered new from the ground up and so was the Alto 800 so the addition of a driver's airbag is indeed a boon. Plus why would a company add an airbag if they saw no use for it especially in a market where the consumer doesnt care so it isnt some sales strategy.
Not sure of the Etios, but the Alto 800's driver airbag is surely a marketing gimmick.
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Old 13th August 2013, 14:47   #83
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by petroguzzler View Post
Not sure of the Etios, but the Alto 800's driver airbag is surely a marketing gimmick.
I am sorry but I do not agree here. How is the driver airbag a marketing gimmick? Having an airbag is always better than not having one so its good that it is at least being given as an option, especially in a market where decals and HUs are seen as more value for money
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Old 13th August 2013, 15:14   #84
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

I think we have beaten the already squashed body of the K10 into pulp on this thread, perhaps to add some value to the discussion it would help if someone in the know can post the safety rating of some of the other cars in the K10's category like i10, Wagon R, Micra, Beat and Brio (I know, I know these are so called B1 segment cars but do figure in the minds of K10 buyers in the initial comparison)

I dont think any K10 buyer suffers from any illusions/pretensions while putting down his hard earned cash, however am sure a zero safety car is not what anyone is bargaining for. If the alternate options are streets ahead in safety than maybe this hallowed community can lobby with the powers that be and ensure unsafe cars are not churned out, however if the safety quotient is marginally higher in the other cars, then am not sure whether its fair to hound the K10 alone because as said earlier, its cheap and unpretentious.
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Old 13th August 2013, 16:03   #85
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post
I am not speaking about the thickness/ gauge of the metal used, but, the quality if the metal/ alloy used.

I was trying to locate the thread, where I believe I have myself posted the link to review of the vehicle by a team of Australian Reviewers conducted in India, but, can't find at the moment (need o spend more time). They had quoted in one of the paras that the sheet metal will be different for their country model as compared to Indian variant.
As a Matter of fact , I know that every Auto manufacturer Whether TATA / Mahindra / toyota or Suzuki , Everyone Uses Different metal Sheet, depending on the market that vehicle is being manufactured for . So vehicles intended for Europe markets get diff treatment compared to One Intended for Domestic market.

It;s About local laws IMO . there are none in india so we get fleeced by everybody in the world . there is a reason why Suzuki closed it's US business & mahindra is struggling to enter US market big time.
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Old 13th August 2013, 16:38   #86
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

I own the k10, my only car and daily drive. When I was in the market a year ago to replace my 800, I was trying to choose between the Wagon R and Alto K10. I chose the K10 based on two factors: One, I thought K10 would be a lot more safer from a construction standpoint as its a fresh new car from the maruti stable built along the lines of today's modern cars. Two, all reviews including TBHP's predicted good mileage in real world conditions. I couldn't care less about its power, I am a sedate driver.

My k10 has never given anything above 12 KMPL in the city, with about 50% AC (my 800 used to consistenly give 18 KMPL). As far as safety goes, the less said the better. The car is a hoot to drive, alright. But the brakes need an elephant's leg to stop the car. I could have stretched my budget and sure bought it if K10 came in a zxi avatar with ABS. But there was none on offer. Maruti's widow maker strategy of building powerful cars with poor brakes is contuining with most of their cars: k10, Swift, Dzire (Non abs versions of Swift and dzire).

And now this news about its crash safety. I will sure think twice before taking my family on the highway in this car again.
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Old 13th August 2013, 17:37   #87
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post
Since XUV500 W8 (not the W6, which gets few lesser Airbags, & thereby the rating would be even lower) had undergone ANCAP testing & scored 4-star, which I admit is decent score.
See, that's applicable for every car out there, not just the XUV. Every model tested there has been the one with more than 2 airbags!

That's a different topic altogether that normally all cars in Europe and US have more than 2 airbags! But that is not the case in India.

Quote:
But, there is grave difference in the sheet metal used for export market to countries which are more developed than India for XUV500, & for most other vehicle as a matter of fact. Mind you, I am not speaking about the thickness/ gauge of the metal used, but, the quality if the metal/ alloy used.
Is that really true?

Quote:
I was trying to locate the thread, where I believe I have myself posted the link to review of the vehicle by a team of Australian Reviewers conducted in India, but, can't find at the moment (need o spend more time). They had quoted in one of the paras that the sheet metal will be different for their country model as compared to Indian variant. I am sure, if the Indian variant is tested, another half point would be gone with the relatively poorer quality metal used. Add to this, the ratings of W6 (which sells more IMO) would be even lower.
How much lower? A 3* rating, right?

Well, if someone is that safety conscious, why would they even think about buying the W6. Buy the W8 instead.

Quote:
However, this is not restricted to M&M, even other dominant Indian - Tata is doing somewhat similar, by not offering the Safari/ Storme with front facing 3rd row seats, when they have the same for much smaller markets abroad.

Almost all manufacturers are the same, maybe the degree is different. But, being the market leader Maruti Suzuki has more responsibilities towards Indians & has to give more to Indians, which they have failed.

All of the above is the reason why I remarked, Indians are lax towards own safety & not blamed the manufacturers &/ or Govt. squarely.
Exactly, manufacturers make cars to sell. They will give what we demand and lets face it, Indians are not safety conscious.

If tomorrow there is a huge demand for cars with Airbags, who will stop manufacturers from giving them even in lower variants? At an additional price of course.

As long as we are ready to pay, no manufacturer will hesitate to offer us such safety features. But fact is, nobody wants to pay... And as I said, manufacturers are not here for charity. If we dont care about your own safety, why would they?

Quote:
Hope I have made myself clear without offending you & anyone.
Oh no, you did not offend me mate. I was just telling you that XUV is a reasonably safe product and is a step in the right direction for M&M who till now was not really bothered about making safe cars.

P.S.: Scorpio has a 3* rating.
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Old 13th August 2013, 17:37   #88
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by arvind71181 View Post
I am sorry but I do not agree here. How is the driver airbag a marketing gimmick? Having an airbag is always better than not having one so its good that it is at least being given as an option, especially in a market where decals and HUs are seen as more value for money
The point is a car should be designed ground up to incorporate airbags. Just merely adding them could do more harm. With MSIL , the Swift, Ertiga etc. are based on new platforms that have good crash ratings and in that case an airbag would provide good protection. However the Alto 800 being a reworked version of the old alto, as seen in the crash test doesn't have a structurally sound monocoque and hence an airbag can cause injury.

And Airbags have more importance in the consumer's mind than ABS as per Marketing Research.
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Old 13th August 2013, 17:58   #89
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by hothatchaway View Post
perhaps to add some value to the discussion it would help if someone in the know can post the safety rating of some of the other cars in the K10's category like i10, Wagon R, Micra, Beat and Brio (I know, I know these are so called B1 segment cars but do figure in the minds of K10 buyers in the initial comparison)
I think the Chevy Spark (from the same generation) (~80Kg heavier but 4cyl w/ iron block) gets 2.5-3-stars in Euro NCAP, which is known to be a tougher test. Look at how the passenger cell remains rigid without collapsing. The others are more expensive and not really in the K10 category



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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
You told those factors are mentioned in the reviews. I only pointed out nothing was mentioned in this particular review.
If its available, then it will be mentioned! Otherwise you end up with a 2 page list of what is not offered.... esp in a entry level car.

Last edited by Mpower : 13th August 2013 at 21:22.
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Old 13th August 2013, 18:00   #90
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

I for one have always believed 'Made-for-India' is just corporate-speak for 'this won't sell anywhere else'.

In our land of 'kitna deti hai', you can't really expect anything else. We get what we demand. What fraction of car sales are top-end variants? Minuscule.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 13th August 2013 at 18:01.
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