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Old 13th August 2013, 21:53   #106
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by RSR View Post
I believe it was the station wagon version of the car, the Indigo Marina, which he used as one of his everyday cars. He had the rear seats (and the parcel tray) removed so his pet dogs could comfortably sit/lie down there and enjoy the drive as well.
Even in earlier days when Indica was launched I used to regularly hear about he using Indica.
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Old 13th August 2013, 22:01   #107
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

^^^
I think even the older ones have to have the underrun bumpers retrofitted when these vehicles go for CoF. Might be wrong though.

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Old 13th August 2013, 22:28   #108
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by petroguzzler View Post
The current figo was a global product. It WAS. Thats the point. The alto which is the topic of discussion was also a global product at a point of time (barring the slight modifications that MSIL has made). The Figo though a good product would not be able to match its more modern competition like the Swift, Micra, Polo etc. in safety.


The Rexton AFAIK is based on an old Mercedes M Class platform.



Not sure of the Etios, but the Alto 800's driver airbag is surely a marketing gimmick.
Yes its not like I said it still sells internationally, or that it can compete with a Swift, Polo, Punto, Micra but it is still competent unlike the Alto. 4 Stars is a pretty decent crash rating and I am certain it is just as much if not better than what an Indica Vista might get.

The Rexton is based on an old M Class true but why should that mean that it isn't very crash worthy? There are several things that manufacturers could modify in the search for better crash worthiness.
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Old 13th August 2013, 22:59   #109
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by hothatchaway View Post
Instead of running this model to the ground, we need to understand the issue in context and to that effect I would like to propose the following questions which are worth reflecting on (especially K10 owners)

• Is this test in Latin America sufficient for us to conclude that K10 is the most ‘unsafe’ car in India?
• Is this applicable only for K10 or also to the regular Alto and if yes, we are potentially talking about a fifth of all passenger vehicles on our roads being patently unsafe?
• How safe are the other cars from the Maruti stable? Since Alto/K10 is almost a category by itself, how much ‘safer’ (if at all) is a Wagon R, A*, Swift et al? If the answer is in degrees then its acceptable owing to the higher price they command, if the answer is Alto/K10 is unsafe period and the other checks the ‘basic’ boxes, then we have a problem
• This leads me to ponder on the fundamental question, what is an ‘acceptable’ degree of safety/crash worthiness for cars in India; how do we define that in the absence of NCAP like certifications available elsewhere? While its intuitive and inevitable, is it fair to consider random test samples done elsewhere for a select number of Indian models when we are assuming that some ‘made to export’ models use better material for stocks meant for export. How do we know for e.g. that model x in India, which is both exported and available in India, has not achieved a better rating on its ‘export’ quality stocks while peddling stocks sporting an inferior quality of sheet metal in India
• Finally the damning question, if a Nano, which in terms of price point seems to be a gazillion segments below even the Alto, sports a far superior safety rating, then this is a scam of epic proportions. The K10, fun to drive while it is, is no V8 and the pricing difference cannot be explained in performance alone. Considering both the Nano and the Alto are Spartan in every respect, what explanation does MSIL have for peddling something so shoddy? This mind you, is assuming that the ratings which we are talking about, represents a 2x/3x qualititative difference in safety for Nano and Alto models available in India

Am not out of questions but have run out of words to express them. I do not plan to take this lying down if this is true, but would like to be absolutely sure that the first two questions are true before I damn my precious possession which so far has been the highlight of my acquisitions. I can live with the fact that m K10 may not have the structural rigidity of a model which commands a much higher price point as that is the truth of basic economics. I will leave people to draw the conclusion whether that makes me a ‘cheapo’ as this is a democracy and we have a right to our opinions. But lets ask some of these probing questions and determine if this a feature of most cars in the Indian passenger car industry and the difference is in degrees and K10 owners need not feel like pushing their cars off the nearest cliff.
Hi
first of all you need to cool down mate. now coming down to your questions:
1. no it's not the most 'unsafe' car. you can go through harishnayak's LTO of his alto lx : http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...very-page.html (My Alto love story - 2006 till date with pics on every page)
2. yes this should apply to the regular alto also
3. this still needs to be seen as they are yet to be crash tested
4. again no valid proof, but in all probabilities, it's true
5. the nano tested in europe had airbags and were reportedly structurally modified
so the thing is, people are bashing the k10 because we have a video of its crash test where it failed miserably. but IMHO if all the non airbag versions of A and B segment cars sold in India are crash tested in their true production form, they would have more or less the same fate. before anyone points out about Euro NCAP ratings, read carefully the text in bold.
there's no getting away however that the k10 is structurally very weak, and
now that we know it, we must act to make it our advantage. one who knows his limitations is always safe
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Originally Posted by Maky View Post
Oooooh yes...
Thanks for sharing this.
I shall show this to my parents right away. They were annoyed I chose the expensive Swift instead of Marutis entry level car for the family which " Also gets us from A to B " ; ). Wouldn't it be grand if some major newspaper printed this.
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Originally Posted by silverado View Post
This is why team bhp is so special, things which are very much unknown to even a normal auto buff are shared here.

I am very happy to read this, i was made to look like a fool when i bought Nano over Alto.

What i am surprised , is why doesn't TATA Motors advertise this particular aspect of its vehicles ( that it has in house crash testing facility ).

TATA group has always been honest to our country and this is one more beautiful example. ( I am not related to TATA group in any way, except for being a very happy nano owner )
i wonder what makes you guys happy. come on man grow up, this isn't a micromax vs samsung thing. this is about road safety, and a matter of life and death.
LIVE TO DRIVE (safe)!!! (even if you use an army tank for commuting)

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Old 13th August 2013, 23:00   #110
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

I get the feeling that hatches built for the global market (i20, Spark, i10, Jazz, etc.) may have better safety standards than cars (Alto, etc) built for a specific market like India or some other developing nation, where importance to safety is safely omitted.

But this is my assumption and I have no evidence to back my claim. Having said that, I think I read somewhere on this forum that some of the many safety features on the i20 (world model) were omitted on the Indian version of the i20. Not sure whether this was to keep the price tag down or for some other reason.

Last edited by misquitas : 13th August 2013 at 23:02.
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Old 13th August 2013, 23:58   #111
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by hothatchaway View Post
I am a K10 owner and while its appropriate to appear 'restrained' and 'balanced' for the sake of appearing 'dignified'
If you are referring to my post, Do you really think I cribbed about my own car to score brownie points in an online forum? I have driven this car for 25k kms in the last 1 year and I am talking about first hand experience. I love my car as much as anyone. Its just that I choose to call a spade a spade.

Quote:
Value conscious we may be but I would doubt that a sane individual would plump for something which is a potential 'widow maker' as you put it.
I used 'Widow Maker' as a metaphor, if you will. Sane individuals bought tens of thousands of Omnis, 800s and other cars across the country and they still do. Its not about sanity. The larger issue is the car manufacturers' audacity to sell an unsafe product in the market and their total disregard for human lives. If a car got a ZERO in a crash test, isn't clearly an unsafe and road un-worthy product? Shouldn't the manufacturer work on the car, make it more safer before taking it to the market? Its a fundamental question of responsibility.
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Old 14th August 2013, 01:22   #112
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by veyron_head View Post
Shouldn't the manufacturer work on the car, make it more safer before taking it to the market? Its a fundamental question of responsibility.
Just a quick counter thought that crossed my mind; not to pick up an argument.

Isn't this more like the classic chicken and egg question? Do you blame the public for creating a demand for alcohol or the government for not cutting off the supplies? My point is that, we cannot plainly dump the responsibility on to the manufacturer when we are demanding more of those cars. But I agree that the Govt. or higher authorities, with a strong will, could conduct a test and impose bans on cars with less safety IS a bit easier than the public restraining themselves from creating a demand.

Last edited by thoma : 14th August 2013 at 01:23.
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Old 14th August 2013, 02:02   #113
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The essential issues that need to be highlighted are
1. Lack of any NCAP like certification in India. Certainly something where the authorities like ARAI have to step in, and they wont do it without pressure from consumer groups and forums such as T-BHP.
2. Lack of this information makes it almost impossible for customers to make Crash worthiness as one of the parameters while making a purchase. (No use blaming buyers, they just do not have the information to help in their decision making process).

So we should exert pressure on Authorities to include Crash worthiness certification / grading mandatory for all vehicle manufactures, just like they have done for fuel efficiency, then leave it to the consumers to make their own choices.
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Old 14th August 2013, 09:40   #114
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

This is not really surprising IMO. The car in question is a few generations old (atleast 10-12 years?), and was launched when safety standards were not as rigid as how it is now. We got to know of this rating because it was exported to South America, and went through their crash tests. The Indian Alto maybe safer when compared to a family on a scooter/motorbike, but that’s pretty much about it.

Unfortunately, Suzuki cars with better safety specs (closer to international standards) and build quality does not sell well in India. For e.g.; SX4, A-Star, Vitara, Kizashi etc. The Swift probably is the only exception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thoma View Post
My point is that, we cannot plainly dump the responsibility on to the manufacturer when we are demanding more of those cars. But I agree that the Govt. or higher authorities, with a strong will, could conduct a test and impose bans on cars with less safety IS a bit easier than the public restraining themselves from creating a demand.
I feel the manufacturer should have some amount of social responsibility. In this case the manufacturer is just cashing on the lack of rules (from govt.) and also the lack of awareness (from the public). If the authorities tackle the first part with stringent rules and safety tests, the second bit can be easily contained.
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Old 14th August 2013, 10:38   #115
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

Any car without airbags will not prove safe in crash test. In India Airbags is still considered a luxury add-on, and doesn't even exist in higher trims of most A and B segment cars. In addition, even having airbag in India does not guarantee safety since most drivers don't wear seat belt. Airbags without seat belt is equally dangerous as they mostly does not get deployed in case of a crash.

See the videos below to see the difference of impact with and without airbag.



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Old 14th August 2013, 10:49   #116
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by hothatchaway View Post
I am a K10 owner and while its appropriate to appear 'restrained' and 'balanced' for the sake of appearing 'dignified' pardon me if what I'm about to write appears impassioned since its not a tube of toothpaste or a can of soda, but a passenger vehicle which represents the fruits of my labour and is an integral part of me and my families by dint of the memories that a personal vehicle comes to be associated with it. Feeling like a leper because I happen to own a particular (and very popular) make of car, add to that the trouble taken to arrive at the decision of buying it, not to mention the monetary investment, does not make for a very pleasant acceptance of the situation. The referred to limitation here is not a minor one, I would not want to fell like am stepping into a warzone every time I take my car out.


I and am sure scores of other K10 buyers had a similar train of thought while deciding on this model viz fresh design leading to current (albeit basic) safety features, FE, performance and the like. Value conscious we may be but I would doubt that a sane individual would plump for something which is a potential 'widow maker' as you put it. The fact that people are willing to pay more for better performance, comfort et al means that the cheapest common denominator is not always at play, at least not for those who can afford it, otherwise our roads would only have sported Altos and Nanos. To lump the Indian auto buying category as 'cheap' with scant respect for safety conveys an incomplete picture, I would put it down more to lack of awareness of what an ABS can do for e.g. After all, what % of the Indian passenger car owners are members of communities like TBHP or the like?

Instead of running this model to the ground, we need to understand the issue in context and to that effect I would like to propose the following questions which are worth reflecting on (especially K10 owners)

• Is this test in Latin America sufficient for us to conclude that K10 is the most ‘unsafe’ car in India?
• Is this applicable only for K10 or also to the regular Alto and if yes, we are potentially talking about a fifth of all passenger vehicles on our roads being patently unsafe?

I do not plan to take this lying down if this is true, but would like to be absolutely sure that the first two questions are true before I damn my precious possession which so far has been the highlight of my acquisitions. I can live with the fact that m K10 may not have the structural rigidity of a model which commands a much higher price point as that is the truth of basic economics. I will leave people to draw the conclusion whether that makes me a ‘cheapo’ as this is a democracy and we have a right to our opinions. But lets ask some of these probing questions and determine if this a feature of most cars in the Indian passenger car industry and the difference is in degrees and K10 owners need not feel like pushing their cars off the nearest cliff.
With all of your emotions in check, why would you think someone sharing his current perspective on his car to be flavoured to suit and/or to gain acceptance in an an online forum/score on readability? Don't doubt others intentions right off the bat (just because your's is different).

Agree that for some individuals their vehicle purchase might be the pride of their possessions and for some other, it won't be for after all a car is still a car, irrespective of its cost. But with light on this car's safety quotient and having understood it's limitation, the best way forward will be to accept the situation no matter how sour it will be to you, use the vehicle understanding its severe limitations and keeping these aspects in mind when you plan another such commodity that represents the fruit(s) of your labour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thoma View Post
Just a quick counter thought that crossed my mind; not to pick up an argument.

Isn't this more like the classic chicken and egg question? Do you blame the public for creating a demand for alcohol or the government for not cutting off the supplies? My point is that, we cannot plainly dump the responsibility on to the manufacturer when we are demanding more of those cars. But I agree that the Govt. or higher authorities, with a strong will, could conduct a test and impose bans on cars with less safety IS a bit easier than the public restraining themselves from creating a demand.
As I'd said before, the govt is not going to be interested in cutting off avenues of revenue stream for them (and banning any cars will lead to that). Do you really think (our) governments are doing all they can for the betterment and/or safety of its public? If not, then why expect any different from them for our vehicles? (definitely not an argument)

And why would the govt bother when these calls sell by thousands by themselves? Of course don't blame the car companies (for they will only act in their interest and profits). For me, I don't see anyone else to blame than myself, if I'm standing in line to buy a vehicle that I know is not safe for my family and me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by appuchan View Post
Any car without airbags will not prove safe in crash test. In India Airbags is still considered a luxury add-on, and doesn't even exist in higher trims of most A and B segment cars. In addition, even having airbag in India does not guarantee safety since most drivers don't wear seat belt. Airbags without seat belt is equally dangerous as they mostly does not get deployed in case of a crash.
True that airbags don't 'guarantee' safety to those who won't wear seatbelt. Individuals need to first wear the seat belt which is their 1st point of safety precaution taken. A little heartening is the fact that 'I' see most individuals driving 4 wheelers in Bengaluru, to be wearing their seat belt (though safe driving is hardly cared for here)

Last edited by k_ajay : 14th August 2013 at 11:07. Reason: Adding a comment to Appuchan's post.
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Old 14th August 2013, 11:43   #117
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by misquitas View Post
Having said that, I think I read somewhere on this forum that some of the many safety features on the i20 (world model) were omitted on the Indian version of the i20. Not sure whether this was to keep the price tag down or for some other reason.
If that is true then it is grossly unethical for Hyundai to sell the i20 with that 5 star safety badge on it.
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Old 14th August 2013, 11:46   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k_ajay View Post

use the vehicle understanding its severe limitations and keeping these aspects in mind when you plan another such commodity
this is the most pragmatic outcome of this thread and it should be. facts should make you smarter and more aware.

the alto is not built to take a head on crash well. that is the fact. just make sure you are more risk averse and avoid that at all costs.

just like the wannabe bike racer zigzagging his bike at high speeds on the highway is at more risk than the cautious scooter rider at the extreme left doing 40 kmph.
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Old 14th August 2013, 12:09   #119
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

Alto at best a city car is safe @ 40kms/ hr.
So test results are justified, Surprised Nano scores over Alto and still Alto leads numbers month on month.
Maruti should act and make it safer car to drive.
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Old 14th August 2013, 14:28   #120
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Default Re: Maruti Alto K10: ZERO Star Safety Rating in the Latin NCAP

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Originally Posted by thoma View Post
Just a quick counter thought that crossed my mind; not to pick up an argument.

Isn't this more like the classic chicken and egg question? Do you blame the public for creating a demand for alcohol or the government for not cutting off the supplies? My point is that, we cannot plainly dump the responsibility on to the manufacturer when we are demanding more of those cars. But I agree that the Govt. or higher authorities, with a strong will, could conduct a test and impose bans on cars with less safety IS a bit easier than the public restraining themselves from creating a demand.
Not quite. We buy what is available within the budget. Most of us may not know about the technical nuances of how structurally safe our car is. We just believe that such a reputed manufacturer wouldn't sell an unsafe car. I for one, never thought about how a K10 would fare in a crash test, when I chose to buy it. Even if I did think about it, I couldn't have gotten that information easily. I can only look for visible safety features like ABS and airbags in a car. Things like structural safety and crash test worthiness remain solely the responsibility of the manufacturer. 99% of customers, like me, wouldn't have a clue.
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