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Old 23rd August 2013, 21:35   #106
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Default Re: 15 bizmen set to return their Audis after ‘bad service’

A few points I would like to make:

1) It is surprising why people assume Audi to be a victim here. Does anyone really doubt the ability of VW Group to hire lawyers and litigate? Or to be at the receiving end of negative publicity and not give two hoots about it?

2) The guy may or may not be a corrupt ruthless politician. But many people seem to be judgemental about it. Or being from a smaller town does not mean hes an uneducated idiot. (I am from Pune, so nothing to do with me personally).

If this would have been an ordinary BHPian, then we would be congratulating him on showing Audi its right place no?

3) Many opinions suggest that snapping of the V belt is a frequent issue. So does that make it ok? Instead it should have been rectified. German brands are not entitled to 75% less reliability than Japanese ones.

4) Again stating the second case, maybe the car is an offspring of his ill gotten wealth, I dont know that. Does that mean he is not entitled to travel the roads safely?

If it would have been your own family's life on the line, would you really reason that engine replacement is enough? Maybe its illogical or maybe its not, but we cant blame someone for using all his resources to ensure being safe.

P.S. I share just as much hate of dirty politicians as the next Indian guy. But it really saddens me how different standards are being applied for people. Being so judgemental. On team-bhp, one of the most mature forums anywhere on the internet.

P.P.S. I do think the engine replacement might be an ok choice in the right conditions. Like a factory fit suggested by someone. And I hope lexus comes here soon. The big three have gotten a little too much leeway.
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Old 23rd August 2013, 21:42   #107
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Default Re: 15 bizmen set to return their Audis after ‘bad service’

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Haha.....
Aha! I better understand what BlueBeem was trying to say.

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Originally Posted by akshay1234 View Post
be careful with your F30. A friends F30 sucked in water while being driven through 6 inches of water, and the engine stalled. After being towed to the dealership there were 20 other F30s which had suffered the same fate. Apparently the intakes are placed pretty low which is why this issue happened.
Well can this not be labelled as poor engineering? Lower placing of engine parts. I mean 20 of the new 3 series for the same reason. If not poor engineering perhaps unthoughtful? If they decide to sell these all over the world they ought to design a car with various markets/road conditions in mind.
I just feel sad for people who pay so much money for such cars and have to endure such hardships.
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Old 23rd August 2013, 21:45   #108
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Haha what? So you are saying there is place in the engine of Jap and American cars for water while there isn't for Europeans? So does the piston have some extra clearance in Jap and American cars for the water to stay? While the Euros build precise engines with minimal piston clearance?

Cmon buddy, water is water. Once it gets into the engine the engine is done, water cannot be compressed.

Maybe what you mean to say is Jap cars have more safegaurds against water entering the engine, like higher placed intakes.

The part I highlighted in bold is something in wholeheartedly agree with.

And also do be careful with your F30. A friends F30 sucked in water while being driven through 6 inches of water, and the engine stalled. After being towed to the dealership there were 20 other F30s which had suffered the same fate. Apparently the intakes are placed pretty low which is why this issue happened. And I know for sure that my friend was/is not negligent with any car.
Actually no buddy. What I said was precisely what I meant. While the japs can handle little bit of water (can't really give u a measure), the BMW engines have a ZERO tolerance there. I'd suggest you read more about this before ridiculing. . I'm obviously no engineer but the service guy at BMW explained it bit by bit when my brothers F30 got a hydrostatic lock last month.

Haha. 6 inches ? Really??? I imagine That's a bit of an exaggeration. But yea I get what you're saying. Apparently the air suction for all turbo chargers in BMW is placed really really low while all the naturally aspirated ones have em near the front grill.
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Old 23rd August 2013, 21:50   #109
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Default Re: 15 bizmen set to return their Audis after ‘bad service’

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Actually no buddy. What I said was precisely what I meant. While the japs can handle little bit of water (can't really give u a measure), the BMW engines have a ZERO tolerance there. I'd suggest you read more about this before ridiculing. . I'm obviously no engineer but the service guy at BMW explained it bit by bit when my brothers F30 got a hydrostatic lock last month.

Haha. 6 inches ? Really??? I imagine That's a bit of an exaggeration. But yea I get what you're saying. Apparently the air suction for all turbo chargers in BMW is placed really really low while all the naturally aspirated ones have em near the front grill.
Oh you got this from your service guy. Honestly that has no credibility, because these guys themselves hardly know anything. There are exceptions, but most of them don't have great knowledge. So please take with a pinch of salt what your service person told you.

Don't think it was an exaggeration, but then again I wasn't there when it happened. There is no hard and fast rule as to where the intakes are placed. Look at the 335i (E90), its turboed and the intake is near the front grille.

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I would suggest you walk into the nearest BMW dealer and they will explain to you exactly how BMWs/Audis are most prone to this hydrostatic lock phenomena because of the engine design I just mentioned above.
The dealers will explain it to you the best because they want to make more money of selling their insurance which covers hydrostatic lock. They lack basic knowledge, please double check facts of anything technical any of these dealers tell you.
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Old 23rd August 2013, 21:57   #110
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Default Re: 15 bizmen set to return their Audis after ‘bad service’

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It just looks like this customer is trying to take advantage of this situation and try and get his 2 year old car changed into a brand new Audi. If he really has such a big issue/and has lost faith in the brand, why would he be willing to settle for a new Audi?
Hi mate, Its not just that particular owner who is looking for a chance to get a new car rather he has gathered 14-15 odd owners of Audi Q3 and convinced them to demand for replacement/return of the vehicles and see the irony they all just simply agreed to support him.

Is there a gaurentee that after a new vehicle is given to this chap problems will not arise in it as its a machine? So, Will he stand up for a new vehicle to be given to him again?

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Old 23rd August 2013, 22:15   #111
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Oh you got this from your service guy. Honestly that has no credibility, because these guys themselves hardly know anything. There are exceptions, but most of them don't have great knowledge. So please take with a pinch of salt what your service person told you.

Don't think it was an exaggeration, but then again I wasn't there when it happened. There is no hard and fast rule as to where the intakes are placed. Look at the 335i (E90), its turboed and the intake is near the front grille.

The dealers will explain it to you the best because they want to make more money of selling their insurance which covers hydrostatic lock. They lack basic knowledge, please double check facts of anything technical any of these dealers tell you.
Actually I have driven it over more than 6 inches of water several times. Carefully and slowly though. Lol Trust me 6 inches is an exaggeration.

The guy telling me all this was their technical head at the local service station. Not someone trying to sell the insurance. Cut them some slack bro . I know you and I have had our share of experiences at the service station, but they are the ones spending the entire day under the hood of the car. Nothing wrong with them being technically correct sometimes.

Hydrostatic lock occurs when a volume of liquid greater than the volume of the cylinder at its minimum (end of the piston's stroke) enters the cylinder. In a BMW 320d Engine this SPACE or Volume of the cylinder at its minimum is almost zero Just enough for air/gas but not for any real volume of liquid. If I understand correctly this is one of the factors that results in greater power delivery.

This is what puts the tolerance level of various engines in different zones. The "Water is water. Once it enters the engine, you're done" theory doesn't really apply. Some engines can handle some water. Others can handle very little. Hope this helps
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Old 24th August 2013, 07:08   #112
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Default Re: 15 bizmen set to return their Audis after ‘bad service’

Well from an Indian Business sensibility the group is doing nothing wrong in asking for a replacement. If 1 out of 10 high cost machines goes kaput of such a high cost deal, any 'good' company would be expected to replace it even if it is just a goodwill gesture at their part. That a German mentality is working at the other end is what is causing the issue. Everything is not black and white in India and foreign companies need to understand and address this issue. If an Indian company was operating say in Germany, we would be expected to change our norms according to local needs and sensibilities. Why is the vice versa not possible? Why do we give so much slack to the 'gori chamdi'?

Audi should just go ahead and give them the replacement and get the matter done and over with.
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Old 24th August 2013, 07:16   #113
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Default Re: 15 bizmen set to return their Audis after ‘bad service’

We are all like this only. A poor (I don't mean money wise) chap bought an AUDI, had to suffer an engine failure (a lot of members are scoring technical points, here), had lot of emotional trauma, frustration, hurt ego and what not, is told by the company we are going to replace the engine (by the way they have to do it anyway if it is under warranty, they are not being benevolent here) and most members here are mocking that chap; politician, ill-gotten money, uneducated, not so smartly dressed (even some drivers dress better), semi-rural and what not. This is EXACTLY same as after a rape or a gang-rape, we all get down to Why was the girl out late at night, Why was she dressed in skirts, Why was she beautiful, Why was she a girl even, Why was she born....Our sympathies are not with the victim.

I fail to understand why a city-folk's ego is hurt when a farmer (who has kheti-badi and all that backward stuff) decides to buy an R8. Of course, how dare he. It is only the city-folks who are sophisticated (many writing wrong spellings by the way of sophisticated here) and know a thing or two about cars or have access to magazines or at least Google so that they can copy paste some gyaan, who can buy such exotic cars.

I think, when this much anxiety has been caused, he has all the right to ask for a new car. We have not spent the money, so can really afford to go soft on Audi.

Disclaimer: I live in a city, am not a farmer and no have never driven this expensive a car and probably will never be able to afford one such car. If, a big IF, if I spent such big money and had a engine failure, I sure would create hell of a ruckus.
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Old 24th August 2013, 10:46   #114
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Default Re: 15 bizmen set to return their Audis after ‘bad service’

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Originally Posted by novice_alto View Post
We are all like this only. A poor (I don't mean money wise) chap bought an AUDI, had to suffer an engine failure (a lot of members are scoring technical points, here), had lot of emotional trauma, frustration, hurt ego and what not, is told by the company we are going to replace the engine (by the way they have to do it anyway if it is under warranty, they are not being benevolent here) and most members here are mocking that chap; politician, ill-gotten money, uneducated, not so smartly dressed (even some drivers dress better), semi-rural and what not. This is EXACTLY same as after a rape or a gang-rape, we all get down to Why was the girl out late at night, Why was she dressed in skirts, Why was she beautiful, Why was she a girl even, Why was she born....Our sympathies are not with the victim.

I fail to understand why a city-folk's ego is hurt when a farmer (who has kheti-badi and all that backward stuff) decides to buy an R8. Of course, how dare he. It is only the city-folks who are sophisticated (many writing wrong spellings by the way of sophisticated here) and know a thing or two about cars or have access to magazines or at least Google so that they can copy paste some gyaan, who can buy such exotic cars.

I think, when this much anxiety has been caused, he has all the right to ask for a new car. We have not spent the money, so can really afford to go soft on Audi.

Disclaimer: I live in a city, am not a farmer and no have never driven this expensive a car and probably will never be able to afford one such car. If, a big IF, if I spent such big money and had a engine failure, I sure would create hell of a ruckus.
It's not as simple as you make it out be, if life were so simple we as a country would not be in the disarray we are in!! Everything has a time and place/horse before the cart!? There are massive pockets and disjointed ness read disharmonious distribution of wealth in the country mostly gotten by folks who would not be able too without elicit means. I would say all the high principles/morals and ideal like democracy, equality...etc are all not really relevant here. What is important are people experiences and not the principles you talk of, enough to understand by reading the article and looking at the pics and coming to a FAIRLY certain conclusion that these are not some ordinary guys like you and I. And I don't mean they being extra ordinary in some high competence sense, or highly capable in a dynamic or fair sense. It's called Thin slicing and or power of observation not to be confused with just loose talk. This is a forum meaning everyone here has a right to state their opinion and does not need sub moderation. Lets learn to respect forum members power of observation which is all you and I have left frankly as we watch all forms of principles and values disintegrate around us instead of getting into intellectualisation and disarming folks who are not saying anything to you directly but talking about the folks in the picture for gods sake

Coming to the point if the engine is gone no manufacturer on this planet will replace the car so lets stop molicodling the issue. I hate Germans and their way of managing customers the world over in the car world. I own a few of their cars a e250cdi, w123 as well. What Audi has offered is well within the means of std practice. This seems to be a clear case of ganging up and some pseudo govt administration cronies trying to throw their weight around. And in the context all the folks in the pics certainly don't look the part of genuine owners come what you may say. This is no court of law so all discussions are conjecture and sharing of opinions, just that I don't understand why we have so many defence lawyers for folks who are not here, the courts need you folks.

Incidentally most Audi setups in MH are owned by kin of politico's interesting to see where this leads. It's like what comes around goes around My bet is the engines will be replaced is all or cars exchanged on audi's trade in terms. By the way I have one leg in the city and the other in the country side incase there is a divide in the mind

Last edited by canonball : 24th August 2013 at 11:00.
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Old 24th August 2013, 11:35   #115
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Default Re: 15 bizmen set to return their Audis after ‘bad service’

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Is there a gaurentee that after a new vehicle is given to this chap problems will not arise in it as its a machine? So, Will he stand up for a new vehicle to be given to him again?
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Exactly what I am talking about. If he really has lost faith in the brand, why would he be willing to settle for a brand new car from the same manufacturer?is he not "putting his family at risk" again?

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Well from an Indian Business sensibility the group is doing nothing wrong in asking for a replacement....That a German mentality is working at the other end is what is causing the issue. Everything is not black and white in India and foreign companies need to understand and address this issue.

Audi should just go ahead and give them the replacement and get the matter done and over with.
It is this "Indian Business sensibility" that I have an issue with. Let me give you a few real life instances, being from the automobile industry we get this a LOT. An Audi owner drove his car into the sea and expected a replacement because the tow truck took "too long" to get there.

A Bike owner went head on into a truck and refused to pay for the repairs because the brakes in his opinion were faulty.

LOTS of people refuse to pay for their "free service" because it is supposed to be FREE! (In a free service, only the labour is free and the owner has to pay for oil and consumables)

What do we do with situations like these? The bike owner might have been demanding it for free because his "life was at risk" but it could have very easily been because of his own actions. It is instances like these that make the Germans stick to their "German mentality" (I am no sucker for Europeans btw.)

Having said this, I firmly believe that such issues should be looked at on a case to case basis, and there is no blanket formula which can be applied to determine whether the person deserves a replacement or not. As someone else said, several other factors regarding the usage of the car, the kind of driving, are all not clear.

Moreover, Audi should not give him a replacement "just to get this matter over with". They should, only if he deserves it. I say this by principle. Like you would not give a couple of rupees to a beggar. Its not like two bucks means a lot to you, but you still wouldn't in order to discourage begging. You wouldn't just give in because you want to get it over with!

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Originally Posted by novice_alto View Post
I fail to understand why a city-folk's ego is hurt when a farmer (who has kheti-badi and all that backward stuff) decides to buy an R8. Of course, how dare he. It is only the city-folks who are sophisticated (many writing wrong spellings by the way of sophisticated here) and know a thing or two about cars or have access to magazines or at least Google so that they can copy paste some gyaan, who can buy such exotic cars.
I do agree with you, but I do feel bad when a person who knows nothing about cars, and wouldn't drive it more than 50kmph buys an R8 just because he can! I look at these people the same way I look at some Emiratis with their oil money. Money can buy you a car, but not taste and class. But then again, to each his own, and my ego is definitely not hurt.

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If this would have been an ordinary BHPian, then we would be congratulating him on showing Audi its right place no?
BHPian or not, I would still stick to my opinion!
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Old 24th August 2013, 12:14   #116
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Default Re: 15 bizmen set to return their Audis after ‘bad service’

not trying to digress from the topic of discussion...
.. 90% of human decisions on non-quantifiable matters (where there is an evaluation & decision based on 'quality') do not follow a clean logical path.
Even the decisions we believe we made purely objectively, based on logic, are in fact really based on instinct; and then we post-mortem the decision and satisfy ourselves with a 'logical' explanation.

Unless we know what exactly transpired between the customer/dealer/audi trio, all that we are trying to do here is second guess. Remember the 'trio' in the previous sentence are really human beings who sit, argue and make decisions while carrying the baggage of their emotions & egos.
So, in my opinion, I dont think we can say who is right or wrong, after reading some newspaper article, we can only be aware that something like this happened.
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Old 24th August 2013, 12:25   #117
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Default Re: 15 bizmen set to return their Audis after ‘bad service’

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not trying to digress from the topic of discussion...
.. 90% of human decisions on non-quantifiable matters (where there is an evaluation & decision based on 'quality') do not follow a clean logical path.
Even the decisions we believe we made purely objectively, based on logic, are in fact really based on instinct; and then we post-mortem the decision and satisfy ourselves with a 'logical' explanation.

Unless we know what exactly transpired between the customer/dealer/audi trio, all that we are trying to do here is second guess. Remember the 'trio' in the previous sentence are really human beings who sit, argue and make decisions while carrying the baggage of their emotions & egos.
Dear Venky, its very nice to see members like you have such a uncomplicated thought process. As you may also agree that this is automotive forum under which any/all type of happenings in the automotive industry are bound to be discussed with logic, views and counter statements too. It is done just to understand and put forward the various ideas people have on a issue. We all in no-case shall sound judgmental as like you we also came to know about this issue from newspaper.

Eg: In our indian economy the present de-valuation is being discussed and talked about on various forums including Tbhp. Right from a vegetable vendor to a MNC CEO all are having their views on it and have full freedom to discuss and draw conclusions based on what they think is the cause of the issue.

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Old 24th August 2013, 12:51   #118
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Anybody aware of any progress with the case?

Can't wait to see How Audi handle this.
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Old 24th August 2013, 13:08   #119
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Default Re: 15 bizmen set to return their Audis after ‘bad service’

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1) It is surprising why people assume Audi to be a victim here.
2) being from a smaller town does not mean hes an uneducated idiot. (I am from Pune, so nothing to do with me personally).

If this would have been an ordinary BHPian, then we would be congratulating him on showing Audi its right place no?
Dear SAS,

We all here at this forum are not discussing this issue like its done by legal institutions. Hence we do not want to address either of the involved parties as "victim" or "accused". Its an intellectual discussion where in counter statements are put forward according to what a particular member thinks on it. Secondly, We are not into class rigidity and in no ways believe the owner to be uneducated. Its just that him demands seems unreasonable to us inspite of the offer made from Audi to him.

Lastly, I believe before being a member of any automotive forum we all are common, day-to-day motorists first and in case if the vehicle in question had been owned by a bhpian still in no ways he/she would have ever sought for a new vehicle just because of a mechanical fault. I agree its a serious matter but in no ways does it require to be dealt in such a unreasonable fashion as it is done from his end.

Asking you OT, If the remote control of your AC is not working because of a fault Will you ask the dealer to replace the entire AC for a NEW one because of it? And will you also convince others using that brand to support you and ask for replacement with a NEW AC?

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# P.S: We all here are enlightened and acknowledged people here just like you so humbly request you to avoid derogatory words like "idiot" etc. It does not go well with forum's culture. Dont be offended.

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Old 24th August 2013, 13:27   #120
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Default Re: 15 bizmen set to return their Audis after ‘bad service’

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If I were with Audi, I wont say or do anything.

No car, not even a Nano or a M800, will have its engine seizing before giving multiple warning signs. Despite that, Audi has agreed to replace the engine, which is a very commendable action in my view. A new car is just completely un-reasonable request.

And if I was part of JLR/Merc/BMW, I would be sending out letters to dealers saying not to accept these people as customers at all. Its better to not sell a few cars, than selling car to crazy people like these.
Well, Audi must have inspected the car's records of servicing prior to accepting an engine replacement (as is usually a clause for warranty applicability). Going by that check / decision subsequently, it is evident that the car was in satisfactory health by Audi's standards. An engine seizure despite periodic maintenance is actually a manufacturing or possible design defect or failure of a critical engine system / component. I'm sure Audi must have realized the fact and have offered to withdraw the engine (for fault analysis of design failures) with a replacement (most likely a refurbished / test engine as no one stocks spare engines is my guess), thereby killing two birds with one stone and scoring brownie points. At that capital investment and periodic service cost (and three days downtime for a regular service), a customer has every right to accost the company with a car replacement claim.

As always, a dealer / company service centre cannot replicate the quality and finesse that the factory line can produce and therefore, post rectification issues and niggles are definite, be it Audi or anyone else (this is India we have to remember). Had I been in Audi I would have taken up a special case for replacement of the car and used the bought back car as a TD car, thereby saving both the company's reputation and actually winning over more customers. That way, there would not have been any option for JLR/ Merc / BMW to tell their dealers anything - as Audi has one delighted customer for life. One has to remember that only few customers exist who buy these premium vehicles, not selling a few cars to such "crazy" people might reduce your sales by maybe 20-30 %, so where's the business sense here ?

I have known of two stroke Bajaj scooter engines seizing as the owners were blissfully unaware that the engine was running almost dry for months together, but the engines of today are far better in terms of design and health monitoring and seizures are unheard of, even in the humble Nano.

As a passing mention, there was another thread about an Audi catching fire in Mumbai on the sea link. Look at the catastrophic failure rate of such expensive cars vis-a-vis their sales figures. Is German engineering really worth the trouble ? I would prefer a home grown brand, which is pointed out for minor niggles. At least a known devil is better than an unknown angel.
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