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Old 7th December 2015, 17:59   #571
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Default Re: The Tata Zica Hatchback (aka Kite)

For the first time, I saw the new Ford Figo hatchback today. The Zica looks much handsome than the Figo.

I have driven i10, alto, celerio. They are all good with a single occupant, less weight scenarios. However, will four adults, some luggage they do struggle and not the performance cars like a polo GT, T-Jet and the likes. I do not think Tata (or any manufacturer of similar car) would expect/market the small hatchbacks be driven on highway for long runs, carry loads of luggage etc. So wondering why the reviews are not focusing on the key points like decent power and good mileage, overall value for money (safety, comfort, ride quality, less cost of ownership, fit and finish)

Most of the auto reviews have tendency to point out some flaw that is not so important to confuse readers - like power is linear but lacks auto climate control - the doors close with a thud but the seats are not made of leather.

On the reviews:

1) Autoportal - Should improve build quality -> none of the i10's, celerios are super stars in build quality. On what basis are they commenting on it ? Reference to any NCAP rating ?

2) CarblogIndia - The last part of the article sums it rightly.

Only grouse is Tata should have continued to name it as Kite - would remove the zi"ca" similar to Indi"ca" Plus some more jazzy color options to make it stand out on the crowd.

On the generalization and reliability, Tata cars suffer from an image problem and they are responsible for it ! Repeating again, blame it on the inital flops and the incompetency of the After sales service centers. I Have driven Tata Safari's (had two of them) for more than 1 L km's, each in the less than 3 years of ownership. I do find the service center very incapable. Forgetting to fix the horn cover, not checking vital stats during service, can never get alignment right - for each of the flaw's the standard response would be tata cars are like that, sir. And interestingly i had the service advisor personally check my car outside of the service center and the diagnosis and fixes were super good. So that talks a lot, isn't it ? And yes, its not practical to get a car serviced only on relationship basis, so that leaves a bad taste.

Let's not write this down yet, waiting for the T-bhp review. And we can for sure figure out whether this would be a good buy or not. Hopefully i'd see reviews from members with the headlines like 1l kms on my zica, 5 years of love affair with my zica and so on.
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Old 7th December 2015, 19:20   #572
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Default Re: The Tata Zica Hatchback (aka Kite)

Quote:
Originally Posted by srinivaspai View Post
Did i land in a Tata fan following forum here?

That It sells in taxi segment mainly is what i have also said.

Sir, I can say the same to you > Im not shoveing my opinion down your throat.Take it or leave it ITs my opinion. My family has owned a Sumo and I have driven more than 1 lakh Kms sitting on the drivers seat and cooling my heals in Tata service centre. No more i want to do that....

If a man does not learn from mistakes and is adamant to do the same again he is bound to suffer.after more than 3,50,000 kms of ownenership of automobiles of various brands I have formed my opinion and may be when you guys come to that experiene level you will also develop knowledge what to buy and what not to buy.
I am yet to be knighted, so just Suraj would do. It has been pointed out many a time that taxi operators choose vehicles which are rugged, reliable and cheaper to maintain.

You base your opinion on a single vehicle which was designed almost 20 years ago. Your overall experience of 1L kms on it (unreliable, but you managed a lakh kms) and the balance of 2.5L kms on vehicles from other brands. Well, my signature will tell you my experience across the brands.

While ASS might or might not be a strong point in your area, I have used a single center for the last 18-20 years.

We follow developments across all brands and recognize genuine efforts of manufacturers. Let's not make sweeping statements about stuff we know nothing about and recognize quality when it is offered. I stand by Tata, not as a fanboy, but as a customer who has had every car from their stable except the Estate and the Aria, and having used each of them for over a 1.5L kms each (except Safari and Nano).

I rest my case.

Last edited by discoverwild : 7th December 2015 at 19:22.
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Old 7th December 2015, 19:53   #573
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Default Re: The Tata Zica Hatchback (aka Kite)

Quote:
Originally Posted by srinivaspai View Post
I for one will not put my money on Tata even though they may bring in the best looking cars ever.Quality, performance, reliability are the only factors leading to Customer satisfaction which in turn translate into resale value.
You may use the thread (Tata cars - Reliability and service?) to discuss their reliability. Let's not waste our time talking about everthing on Tata.
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Old 7th December 2015, 21:21   #574
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Default Re: The Tata Zica Hatchback (aka Kite)

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Originally Posted by theredliner View Post
Checked out the Overdrive page.


Never before did I read/watch test drive reports of a single car with these many contradictions



It took a while to pick my jaw up from the floor after the loud 'WHAAAT' I screamed when I saw the reviewer cribbing about telescopic steering, rear AC vents and rear arm rest. The same 'reviewers' don't have a problem with the Celerio's feature list or quality

I have seen the video review on YouTube and in the parting shot, the 'guy' is shown zipping away in what looks like the petrol (I say that because the diesel used in the review was brown coloured and petrol, the orange) and quite honestly, if that is how 'zippy' my 4 lakh rupee car goes, I won't be complaining. looks like everyone else is looking for a Swift-ish Zica at that price point.

Also why do I get a feeling that everytime Tata launches a bold product, a lot of incidents (Nano's catching fire, anyone?) or contradictory reviews begin to surface. Well, clearly it's making somebody's (someone Japanese may be) heart skip a beat
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Old 8th December 2015, 00:17   #575
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Default Re: The Tata Zica Hatchback (aka Kite)

Quote:
Originally Posted by srinivaspai View Post
Looks is one thing and sales figures is quite another. Tata cars are known to rattle within a few months of purchase and the after sales service is questionable. Resale value is nonexistant and the visibility of their cars is only due to taxi segment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by discoverwild View Post
4 years and 84000 kms later, I have no rattles on my Vista. For people who have not owned one, they wouldn't know much now, would they?
I think the both of you have genuine points that when distilled to their essence are true. If we can set aside personal preferences for a while, I don't think anyone can disagree that the initial batch of Tata cars (not counting the Estate/Sierra/Tata Mobile) were plagued with quality control issues and in some cases outright engineering related snafus. The earliest Indica's had wheel alignment issues, the shift fork had to be re-engineered, the plastics were poor etc. Despite those issues, the car is/was a stupendous success by any measure.

An acquaintance left his Indica V2 diesel with me for a year (this was in 2008), and boy, did I hate driving it (had to do it to keep it in good shape). The ergonomics were poor, the drivetrain was anaemic and the car had quite a few rattles. But then, I'd give colleague(s) a ride in the car and many of them said that the ride was very nice and comfortable, there was a lot of space, and visibility in the cabin was great. Finally, when it was time to fill her up at the fuel bunk, I had to acknowledge that the economy figures were stellar! There is a reason why these cars did well as cabs, but that definitely meant that there was baggage accruing that Tata Motors clearly failed at addressing.

Most of the issues other than interior quality were fixed with the Vista. The Vista (and the Manza) actually improved tremendously over their life cycle. But reputations take a while to turn around. In India, we still do a lot of business based on word-of-mouth. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with it and one should avoid discarding it as "herd" mentality. If Maruti and Hyundai have done well, we need to acknowledge that they did some things just right and there's a rationale behind the "herd" mentality that keeps being brought up on our forum.

Like most of you, I have my own set of biases and opinions. I like the house of the Tatas, their business ethics, and I view them as a source of pride for our country. I want them to do well. If they are serious about the car business -- and it seems that they are -- they need to be in it for the long haul. They have some amazing people in their team now (I think Mayank Pareek is an incredible hire for them) and there are signs that their products are seeing consistent improvements (even though SVP seems to have caught some flak here, I think him saying "Tata Zica is the latest from Tata Motors, and is definitely the company's best yet. Now I remember saying the same for the Aria, and the Zest. And even though at the time, the statement held true for both those cars, it rings truer today than ever before" is a very good sign for Tata Motors).

Finally, it is important to remind ourselves that the 'only thing worse than criticism, is apathy.' Because apathy signals that the company/the thing/the product has ceased to matter. I am paraphrasing something I read on the internet but I can't find the actual quote :(.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akhil994 View Post
And you say you have formed opinion after experience, granted that you would have, but then you would also know that opinions should never be rigid. They are ever changing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksameer1234 View Post
I went through pics put up by various websites and attention to detail is mind-boggling! The speaker and tweeter grills have round holes at center which morph in to hexagons on circumference!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommandogerät View Post
A list of interesting features that I would love to bring to attention.

1. Cabin light moved to center.
...
...
7. Interesting little elephant family easter egg.(Go find out)

It is these tiny details that show that Tata has been really paying attention to the customer.
I completely agree. Attention to detail is a very good indicator of the thoughtfulness and and the maturity of any manufacturer. If the Zica can sell in modest but consistent numbers (say 2500 units a month), and improve continually over the years; the customers themselves would recognize these features and become brand ambassadors that increase in number over time. Quality, reliability (both in terms of the product and its service) will play out in the longer term, but there is enough here to be optimistic.

Last edited by Amartya : 8th December 2015 at 00:18.
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Old 8th December 2015, 07:36   #576
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Default Re: The Tata Zica Hatchback (aka Kite)

The car looks really good for its class. But why do manufacturers, especially one in the position of Tata, give out media drives without announcing the prices!
Isn't it hurting them when reviewers compare the car to ones in a subclass above? They could have just announced the prices got far better reviews!
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Old 8th December 2015, 07:56   #577
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Default Re: The Tata Zica Hatchback (aka Kite)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amartya View Post
I think the both of you have genuine points that when distilled to their essence are true.
A long post to quote, Amartya. But you have a better view unlike some others here.

I have owned a 2006 Indica V2 Dicor DLG and used it for 1.65L kms and personally had no major issues with it at all. My long term report is here on TeamBHP. The only grouse I had with it was the left passenger window tilt which took a while to be set right. The stuff I have done with it is not imaginable in similar cars from other manufacturers. When sold, I got a pretty decent price for it too, compared to my friend's Wagon R which had run half the distance.

What I have seen over the years is Tata's willingness to accept failure and come back strong with better products all the time. First Indica < Indica with reworked underpinnings < Indica with turbo diesel < Vista < Bolt. They accepted failure and learnt from it. Constant evolution, quality upgrades, very decent pricing, VFM.

The Aria was a class of its own, let down by pricing and marketing strategy. The Nano was also a technology marvel, something no other manufacturer in the world thought possible.

Now with the Zica, they have upped the game even more. I cannot comment on the engines, but the interiors and the subtle touches are a class apart, something you might even find missing in cars, 2-3 rungs up the ladder. It is only when naysayers dismiss Tata as a 'has-been' that it catches my goat.

Nobody has an issue when VW comes with an 'all-new' Vento with some change in the headlights (just saying), but people lose their mind when Tata comes out with an all new car, ready to dismiss it without even seeing one in the flesh?!!

That's exactly the herd mentality I am speaking about.
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Old 8th December 2015, 09:32   #578
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Default Re: The Tata Zica Hatchback (aka Kite)

It is heartening to see an Indian manufacturer come out with a product that can not only compete with the world's best but can better them in a few respects as well. And all this when the car is actually bigger and will surely be priced less than the competition. A typically Indian car at heart which tries to give you the most bang for your heard earned buck.

The petrol engine sounds particularly interesting on paper atleast. It doesn't compromise on either the power or the torque and yet is the most fuel efficient of them all even when pulling a car which is the heaviest in its segment! The Autocar review also mentioned "variable cam timing for the intake" which obviously is not the same as variable valve timing that Honda, Toyota and Hyundai's employ. Any light on the same from the more technically inclined on tbhp?

Wishlist from the next Tata
1. Weight - It is a killer! Kills both performance and fuel efficiency. It is still almost 100 kgs heavier than the next heaviest car in its class. To its credit though, it is dimensionally bigger than all its rivals. How Suzuki managed a biggish hatchback (Baleno) which weighs next to nothing is still a mystery given that it does not use any fancy stuff like aluminium or carbon fibre. Given their past record, I would not be too surprised if serious compromises have been or are being made to achieve that.

2. Design - This design although good and pleasing, is still a little too busy. It needs to be more cleaner. Tata you do not have to use the humanity line or the smiling grill on every car. I know it is a corporate styling identity but you do not need that. You just need a smashing design that knocks the socks off. Look at what Honda, Toyota and Hyundai are doing with their subsequent generation cars. They do not look anything like their previous designs or the one's already in the family.

3. Engine Tech - Would love to see technology like variable valve timing on both the intake and exhaust and performance along with some patent worthy wizardy. Also how about an engine which performs as the torque and bhp numbers would suggest?

Last edited by extreme_torque : 8th December 2015 at 09:34.
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Old 8th December 2015, 09:44   #579
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Default Re: The Tata Zica Hatchback (aka Kite)

Quote:
Originally Posted by N.r.K View Post
The car looks really good for its class. But why do manufacturers, especially one in the position of Tata, give out media drives without announcing the prices!
Isn't it hurting them when reviewers compare the car to ones in a subclass above? They could have just announced the prices got far better reviews!
Look at it the other way. Everyone is comparing this to the Celerio, Wagon R, i10, Beat and even Grand i10. Tata is good with pricing and some reports even indicate a Sub-4L starting price. That is basically Kwid, EON and Alto K10 territory. If they do that, then this becomes a huge value for money proposition.

I personally think that the pricing will be fantastic- The Bolt goes from 4.45L to 6L Ex showroom Delhi. Not only do they need to keep the overlap minimal, they also need to leave some space for the Microsedan (Or Notchback) based on the Zica (Tata Sway).
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Old 8th December 2015, 09:53   #580
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Default Re: The Tata Zica Hatchback (aka Kite)

This thread is really creating more noise than any other thread right now in Team-Bhp, and I think this itself is a good sign that, Tata has just unveiled a car and its almost in everybody's mouth right now, A virtual success.

Am I the only one or there are member and moderators in here, to find people commenting on perceived quality of a Tata vehicle without actually experiencing the same?

Zica is a whole new product, from a company, which gave you India's first indigenous passenger vehicle for masses, home grown.
I agree the company didn't evolve as fast as it's competitors due to lack of experience in the segment, but its in the process of revamping its product line up and I think every individual with a negative notion about their new age products, should just visit a Tata dealership and just feel the quality, fit and finish themselves.

This is just what I felt. Sorry if anyone felt rude for expressing their views.

In India's biggest automotive forum, which is being followed by many individuals who own or are on the verge of owning vehicles, your comments might have an adversary effect on their decisions.

Don't just judge a car by pictures, feel the same and I am sure you will be in for a surprise. Moreover a comprehensive review from our moderators is also awaited, which for sure will reveal how much promising the product ZICA actually is.

When I sat in a brand new Vista and Bolt one after the other, i could see the efforts a manufacturer has put in to make a product desirable. No-doubt Zest became Team-Bhp's car of the year, and for a good reason.
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Old 8th December 2015, 10:03   #581
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Default Re: The Tata Zica Hatchback (aka Kite)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajeevraj View Post
I personally think that the pricing will be fantastic- The Bolt goes from 4.45L to 6L Ex showroom Delhi. Not only do they need to keep the overlap minimal, they also need to leave some space for the Microsedan (Or Notchback) based on the Zica (Tata Sway).
Just thinking out loud but assuming Zica and Sway will both be priced below Bolt and Tata will certainly want to maintain price difference between them, it won't be unrealistic to assume Zica starting at 3.5L while Sway starting at 4L, all ex-showroom.

If this comes true, Zica may even undercut Celerio in terms of price!! And here we are comparing it with Grand i10!!

On a different note, Tata has avoided one major major blunder from Zest / Bolt launch by launching hatchback before sedan. There is no way one can show value by launching a car later without boot and minor price reduction. On the other hand, minor price bump and addition of boot sounds sweet!!
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Old 8th December 2015, 10:52   #582
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Default Re: The Tata Zica Hatchback (aka Kite)

All in All.. Nice to see many of us not being directly biased against Zica for being Tata.
But the best to answer all our queries and concerns could only be that Tata Motors launch Zica ASAP.
Once again I bet however good the car may be, its sales figures will hover around 5k unit per month max. Perceived brand image will be the biggest hurdle for Zica.
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Old 8th December 2015, 11:00   #583
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Just checked an online first drive review. Got to say it is very well put together car. At that price it even gets the 175/65 profile tyres, though these may be only for the top variant, but still very good rubber at that price point.
Some concerns on the highway performance of the petrol engine but still it is way better than the competition even on the highway, assuming it is priced sub 4.

Cool.
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Old 8th December 2015, 11:29   #584
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Default Re: The Tata Zica Hatchback (aka Kite)

Quote:
Originally Posted by discoverwild View Post

What I have seen over the years is Tata's willingness to accept failure and come back strong with better products all the time. First Indica < Indica with reworked underpinnings < Indica with turbo diesel < Vista < Bolt. They accepted failure.

Nobody has an issue when VW comes with an 'all-new' Vento with some change in the headlights (just saying),
Exactly what my thoughts were when i wrote . Now lets for a moment accept that Tata accepts failure each time after they bring out a string of flops.But at whose cost? the customer has over the years spent their hard earned money to buy these failures?Tata has experimented on the customers?If one model is a flop its acceptable.but all models by giving one reason or other is unacceptable at least for me and majority of consumers and the sales numbers till date reflects the same flow of thought.

Nobody has a issue when VW or other company gets out a new model with a minor change is because the 1st iteration was technically sound and had very less issues to start with and the same is reflected in the sales figures over a long period of time.

All Oohs and Aahs when looking at a model on the ramp (showroom) so to say is ok. but will it perform on the road and give full bang for the customers buck?

If past performance is any indicator for the future then i have serious reservations . I for one would wait and watch for a long long time before i spend my moneys on Tatas. Once bitten twice shy. My Sumo experience does not allow me to step that way again .Anyway wish Tata's all the best .Lets hope and pray.
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Old 8th December 2015, 11:42   #585
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Default Re: The Tata Zica Hatchback (aka Kite)

My take on Tata's attention to detail:

I agree that Tata has paid a lot of attention to detail in the Zica. But I think that Tata has always paid attention to detail in their passenger cars (I've no comment on their CV). But I've noticed that the way this attention has been paid is quite peculiar - I've seen the Safari Storme at the showroom soon after it was launched and I noticed several things. The attention to detail inside the engine bay was far superior to that inside the cabin. All wires were neatly wrapped and routed carefully, nothing looked like they fitted aftermarket, etc. But looking inside the cabin, I found ill-fitting trim, large gaps between trim panels that could not be attributed to quality variation, exposed screws that should have been concealed, etc. This, to me, points to two different teams working on the mechanicals and the cabin with different objectives with respect to finishing. What would possibly be acceptable to the cabin design team might be unacceptable to the mechanicals team.

I hope that this dichotomy does not occur in the Zica. Also, what good is attention to detail at the design and the factory if the after-sales service undoes it all? For example, attention to detail includes, among many other things, ensuring that the customer receives a clean car after servicing. Somehow the importance of this simple concept escapes many TML service centres.
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