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Old 10th October 2013, 19:29   #31
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Default Re: SCOOP Pics! Swift with Suzuki Diesel Engine, Keyless entry / go & cruise control

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Originally Posted by mohandas View Post
I am not sure how much statistically significant this number is?
Very significant to a person who knows the value of it and the importance.

Many swear by the engine and it is called the National engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
Definitely, a lot of factors went into the success of the Swift and the Dzire becoming such huge successes. But do you think the engine had nothing to do with it??? In my view the engine was a major contributor, more that 50% if you ask me.
+1000.

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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
It not only made the Swift a success, but was also directly responsible for the huge rise in popularity of diesel powered cars in India. It also contributed to a certain extent to making small diesel engines popular outside India as well.


@Mohandas: The Indian market that saw the growth of diesel fuel powered cars in the hatchback segment can be attributed to the 1.3 MJD.

Competitors felt that bite and developed diesel engines only to capture and eat into the market share that was a monopoly by 1.3 MJD. Honda felt that pinch and had to develop a diesel engine to take up with the 1.3 MJD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
As for how good the engine is, let me just share a small little fact. The FIAT 1.3 MultiJet is one of the few diesel engines ever to win an International Engine of the Year award. Only a few other BMW and VW diesel engines have managed that. And keep in mind that there is no separate category for diesel engines, i.e. petrol and diesel engines have to compete against each other.


@Mohandas: Check the link below. Just quoting a few points from the link to give a view of the 1.3 MJD.

SOURCE 1: http://www.zigwheels.com/news-featur...-engine/8058/1

Quote:
One engine that can rightfully be called as a 'universal engine' is the Fiat 1.3litre Multijet. The geniuses at Fiat curved this engine so well that it is used by almost 10 cars and all from homes of different manufacturers.

The Fiat 1.3 litre uniJet Diesel (continued later as Multijet) may secretly working under your car’s hood for long without you knowing about it. The global use of the engine speaks wonders about its steadfastness, economy, power and primarily its flexibility. Produced in Poland under the Fiat banner, the engine displaces 1248cc and is the one that brought the ‘trend of’ the CRDi technology to the Indian car buyers. Hyundai introduced the 1.5litre CRDI Diesel but it was the Fiat counterpart that intrigued the Indian consumers. This work-of-art engine works under the bonnet of Maruti Suzuki Swift, the Maruti Suzuki Ritz, the Maruti Suzuki D’zire, the Maruti Suzuki SX4, the Fiat Stile MJD, the Fiat Grande Punto, the Fiat Linea, the Fiat 500, the Tata Indica Vista and last but not the least the Tata Indigo Manza.

So what is the brilliance in this engine you might wonder? For one the engine has the best in class power/weight ratio diesel technology offers today. Secondly, until this machinery was introduced Diesel engines were looked down upon as non-environment friendly and expensive to maintain. The engine makes use of spring loaded valves that open/close at a definite fuel pressure. It makes use of multiple points to inject a pre-determined quantity of fuel, rather than the conventional single-central point of injection.

Unsurprisingly, consumer response was positive, and in 2005 it received the ‘International Engine of the Year’ award in the 1-1.4 litre category.

January 2007. Suzuki declares launch of Swift as a diesel variant, after it got the license from Fiat to manufacture its JTD technology. Considering the investment that goes into producing an all new diesel engine and the Fiat engine made available to car manufacturers, Suzuki chose to get the rights from Fiat over producing their own engine. The Japanese company tuned the engine to produce 75bhp and 190Nm of torque.

Suzuki has tuned the engines to greater perfection than all other car manufacturers. The Suzuki Swift, Tata Indica Vista Quadrajet and the Fiat Punto all run on the same engines. The Swift is the fastest of the lot doing a standstill to 100kmph in 14.13 seconds as compared to Vista’s 21.1 seconds and Punto’s 17.57 seconds. It also offers a wider gear ratio than the Fiat Punto making for comfortable driving and a lesser need to shift gears repeatedly. The power to weight ratio of the Swift also shows a better scale than the Fiat complement with a kerb weight of 1075kg in the Swift as compared to a 1130kg in the Punto. That was that about the hatchbacks, in the c-segment sedans. The Suzuki SX4, the Tata Indigo Manza and the Fiat Linea are powered by the same engine. Here again, the Suzuki is tuned for better performance than the engine sisters of the class.

In February this year Fiat installed its four-millionth 1.3litre Multijet engine in a Fiat 500 for a French customer, with a special 95hp to roar with. All in all, the 1.3 JTD engine produced by Fiat has been revolutionary as far as diesel technology is concerned. It has changed the perception of diesel engines from a noise making polluting piece of machinery to a respectable powerful heart of a car. To add as icing, it has changed the perception of diesel engines among the masses making them open to purchasing diesel vehicles.
SOURCE 2: http://www.cardekho.com/india-car-ne...gine-10003.htm

Quote:
Nobody had expected the fiat 1.3-litre MultiJet engine to be so successful when it was launched back in 2003, but the engine kept on setting milestones one after the other. Within two years of its launch, it was awarded as the Engine of the Year 2005 in 1.0-1.4-litre category and several others all these years. Now by producing the 5,00,000th 1.3-litre MultiJet engine at the Fiat Powertrain Technologies Poland Plant in Bielsko-Bisala, set a historic milestone.
Happy reading. Sorry for the longish post.

Anurag.

Last edited by a4anurag : 10th October 2013 at 19:31.
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Old 10th October 2013, 21:01   #32
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Default Re: SCOOP Pics! Swift with Suzuki Diesel Engine, Keyless entry / go & cruise control

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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
Definitely, a lot of factors went into the success of the Swift and the Dzire becoming such huge successes. But do you think the engine had nothing to do with it??? In my view the engine was a major contributor, more that 50% if you ask me.
I did not say that. It was definitely a factor in the success, especially compared with no diesel option. However the claim that the high sales of MJD makes it the best engine is plain wrong, that logic is incorrect since:
1> In India anything made by Maruti (except for some flops like A-Star) sell in large numbers due to the mindset of the buyers.
2> There are only a limited number of small diesel engine options and diesel engined small cars availabe relative to, say the European market.

To look at it differently, take Maruti cars out of the picture and look at the sales figures of Punto or Vista. Despite the engine being good, the sales are only a trickle. The same way, if the 85 PS Renault engine from the Sunny was fitted in the Swift, the sales would perhaps rival or exceed the MJD powered Swift.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
It not only made the Swift a success, but was also directly responsible for the huge rise in popularity of diesel powered cars in India. It also contributed to a certain extent to making small diesel engines popular outside India as well.
To some extent, yes, but the main credit for that has to go to the rising petrol prices vis a vis diesel and the fact that petrol running costs became impractical or downright unaffordable to lot of middle class folk who are the main customers for hatchbacks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by julupani View Post
It also contributed to a certain extent to making small diesel engines popular outside India as well.
I am not really sure if the JTD engine family were the main cause for this, it is more of a general trend with the (mainly European) manufacturers. Basically diesel hatchbacks have been popular for decades, for example the old VW 1.9 TDI was a superb engine that was very popular on the Golf a couple of decades back. What moved the industry towards 'smaller' diesel engines of 1.2-1.5 L in hatchbacks was basically the availability of turbochargers i.e technology advances made turbos reliable enough and cheap enough for applications on low-end diesels. That trend now continues with Petrol engines, with manufacturing advances making it practical for small petrol engines to use turbos and that is the direction most manufacturers are going.
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Old 10th October 2013, 21:25   #33
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Default Re: SCOOP Pics! Swift with Suzuki Diesel Engine, Keyless entry / go & cruise control

Firstly, this thread is inching towards the MJD and not the original topic. Think it will be shortly cleaned up. Just to add a point that is related to Maruti/Diesel engine/Sales numbers,

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Originally Posted by chncar View Post
1> In India anything made by Maruti (except for some flops like A-Star) sell in large numbers due to the mindset of the buyers.
As rightly said by A4anurag, it was the MJD that really brought people towards a diesel Maruti. Going by your logic, the diesel esteem should also have sold well because esteem was not a flop and a diesel engine should have just improved sales. However the Esteem Di is a rare piece to find. It was at that time common rail diesels entered the market and the MJD did impress many.
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Old 10th October 2013, 22:03   #34
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Default Re: SCOOP Pics! Swift with Suzuki Diesel Engine, Keyless entry / go & cruise control

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Originally Posted by chncar View Post

There are only a limited number of small diesel engine options and diesel engined small cars availabe relative to, say the European market.
Other than Peugeot, every small diesel engine available in the European markets is available in India.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chncar View Post
To look at it differently, take Maruti cars out of the picture and look at the sales figures of Punto or Vista. Despite the engine being good, the sales are only a trickle. The same way, if the 85 PS Renault engine from the Sunny was fitted in the Swift, the sales would perhaps rival or exceed the MJD powered Swift.
Completely agreed. But it would be nowhere near as big a success as it is today. As for the failure of cars like the Punto/Vista etc, nobody buys a car just for its engine, do they??

Quote:
Originally Posted by chncar View Post
To some extent, yes, but the main credit for that has to go to the rising petrol prices vis a vis diesel and the fact that petrol running costs became impractical or downright unaffordable to lot of middle class folk who are the main customers for hatchbacks.
Do you think without a proper high quality modern diesel engine like the MultiJet we would have shifted over to diesel engine. Do you think if we still had useless DI diesels, which were noisy, un-refined and not very powerful we would have shifted over to diesel engine cars??

I dont think so. If engines like the MJD did not exist, most people would still be buying petrol cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chncar View Post
I am not really sure if the JTD engine family were the main cause for this, it is more of a general trend with the (mainly European) manufacturers. Basically diesel hatchbacks have been popular for decades, for example the old VW 1.9 TDI was a superb engine that was very popular on the Golf a couple of decades back. What moved the industry towards 'smaller' diesel engines of 1.2-1.5 L in hatchbacks was basically the availability of turbochargers i.e technology advances made turbos reliable enough and cheap enough for applications on low-end diesels. That trend now continues with Petrol engines, with manufacturing advances making it practical for small petrol engines to use turbos and that is the direction most manufacturers are going.
FIAT showed the world that small diesel engines were a practical and better alternative to small petrol engines. And they showed it with their MultiJet engines.

True, there were a few good small diesels before the MultiJet engine, and that was the VW PumpDuse engines. But these were not the most reliable. And FIATs common rail MultiJets were quite a good bit better. VW tried to stick with their PumpDuse system, but finally gave up and took up common rail systems like everybody else.

And FYI, the entire modern common rail diesel revolution of the 1st decade of the 21st century is thanks to FIAT. It was FIAT along with its subsidiary Magnetti Marelli who developed the basic system of ECU controlled common rail injection system. It was this tech that allowed diesel engines to become quiet and smooth, while helping to increase fuel efficiency and giving a considerable boost in torque and power.

And its because FIAT for some reason chose to sell the rights to this tech to Bosch, who then sold it to everybody else that modern common rail diesels are the norm today.

Of course, now with development of small light efficient turbochargers along with gas direct injection for petrol engines, that small petrol engines are making a comeback. And by the way, modern GDI tech is also just a derivative of the common rail technology developed by FIAT.
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Old 10th October 2013, 23:53   #35
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Default Re: SCOOP Pics! Swift with Suzuki Diesel Engine, Keyless entry / go & cruise control

Fiat engines making Maruti swift/Dzire no. 1, while linea /punto are in the also rans!! Classic case of Maal kisi ka kamaal kisi ka.... is'nt it?
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Old 11th October 2013, 01:17   #36
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Default Re: SCOOP Pics! Swift with Suzuki Diesel Engine, Keyless entry / go & cruise control

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Originally Posted by windiesel View Post
Fiat engines making Maruti swift/Dzire no. 1, while linea /punto are in the also rans!! Classic case of Maal kisi ka kamaal kisi ka.... is'nt it?
Thats because MJD came to Palio Stile in 2007 when the companys next step was still rocking and at the same time the swift diesel was launched. Even today, suppose someone liked the Swift D, majority of them wouldnt know that there exists many other cars with the same engine elsewhere in another brand showroom. Naturally, maal came from Fiat, Maruti made the kamaal. Only if Fiat was at a better position at that time I net they would have reaped benefits like anything.
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Old 11th October 2013, 07:57   #37
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Default Re: SCOOP Pics! Swift with Suzuki Diesel Engine, Keyless entry / go & cruise control

Keyless entry / go & cruise control will be nice additions to the Swift.

I also hope MSIL extend ABS, EBD and Brake Assist for VDi/ VXi if not across the range.
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Old 11th October 2013, 08:17   #38
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Originally Posted by deetjohn View Post
Keyless entry / go & cruise control will be nice additions to the Swift.

I also hope MSIL extend ABS, EBD and Brake Assist for VDi/ VXi if not across the range.
Those features are a good addition which is much needed when compared to the features given by i20.

ABS, EBD and Brake Assist for VXi/VDi variant is a blessing if they launch but as we all know Maruti it will only add ABS and leave it. No brake aids and air bags. Hope Maruti proves is wrong.

Anurag.
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Old 11th October 2013, 09:03   #39
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Default Re: SCOOP Pics! Swift with Suzuki Diesel Engine, Keyless entry / go & cruise control

The father of small diesel engines in India - Peugeot TU D5.

And the Mother? One and only - 1.3 Multi Jet from Fiat
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Old 11th October 2013, 10:45   #40
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Default Re: SCOOP Pics! Swift with Suzuki Diesel Engine, Keyless entry / go & cruise control

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Originally Posted by julupani View Post
Do you think without a proper high quality modern diesel engine like the MultiJet we would have shifted over to diesel engine. Do you think if we still had useless DI diesels, which were noisy, un-refined and not very powerful we would have shifted over to diesel engine cars??

I dont think so. If engines like the MJD did not exist, most people would still be buying petrol cars.
I feel this thread is moving a little off topic, and I am going to be a little more guilty here but I don't completely agree with either of the statements above.

The shift to diesel, in India, is completely a price driven phenomenon, period. With regards to if people would have bought cars without the MJD in large numbers, lets not forget the fact that the Indica pioneered the diesel hatchback at the time when Maruti used to lobby against diesel engines. In its V2 guise it sold at it's peak with a significant number also being picked up for private use. So, I think, we can discount the "would we have shifted" bit as the populace was shifting to diesel anyways.

Did the MJD increase the sales of diesel even further? Yes they did, nobody can question that, but that had a lot to do with the fact that they were Maruti cars and the brand perception that they carry.

Would diesel sales have increased further anyways, without the Swift? Most likely because that's when the diesel-petrol price difference chasm really started to expand thus increasing the demand. All Maruti did was exploit the situation, even that, was only after they got into the Fiat deal thanks to their ties with GM.

I think that is sufficiently off topic for now.

Last edited by GTO : 12th October 2013 at 16:22. Reason: As requested
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Old 11th October 2013, 16:36   #41
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Default Re: SCOOP Pics! Swift with Suzuki Diesel Engine, Keyless entry / go & cruise control

Taking the discussion back to the original topic..
I feel that the prime motive behind Suzuki's own diesel engine would be to beat the mileage claimed by the i-DTec.
It would be nice to see, how Maruti will further improve an already awesome engine like that of the Fiat's.
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Old 12th October 2013, 07:59   #42
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Default Re: SCOOP Pics! Swift with Suzuki Diesel Engine, Keyless entry / go & cruise control

^^ +1 to milage factor. And maruti should do something seriously to reduce the rattling of the car. From initial impressions, this engine need more refinement to fit in Swift.
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Old 12th October 2013, 08:16   #43
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^^ +1 to milage factor. And maruti should do something seriously to reduce the rattling of the car. From initial impressions, this engine need more refinement to fit in Swift.
Rattles and Maruti ate best friends and even more friendship is shown for the Swift. You can't separate 'rattles' from a Maruti. Just kidding.

I feel instead of a 1.2 L diesel engine they must develop a 1.4L (Swift, Ritz), 1.6L (Ertiga and SX4).

Competing with the MJD would be heck of a task for the engineers add this engine has a great for print and is well established in the market and now Maruti wants to gain fans with their own engine. Good that they woke up and their own engine will be a saving as they won't need to pay royalty to Fiat for the per engine used.

Anurag.
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Old 12th October 2013, 22:10   #44
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Default Re: SCOOP Pics! Swift with Suzuki Diesel Engine, Keyless entry / go & cruise control

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" goes the adage. It's gonna take a superlative diesel engine to replace the 1.3 MJD, and a 1.2 at that? I have me doubts.
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Old 12th October 2013, 22:53   #45
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Default Re: SCOOP Pics! Swift with Suzuki Diesel Engine, Keyless entry / go & cruise control

Can engine development be outsourced? I mean like how many of Toyota's Petrol engines are fine tuned and also manufactured by Yamaha.
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