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Old 27th October 2013, 18:20   #16
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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Hey, waitaminute! Aren't Vento, Sunny and City sedan variants of Polo, Micra and Jazz? How is the psychology of Vento/Sunny/City buyers different from that of Amaze/Dzire buyers?
Point worth to be considered. My two cents, The engine specifications for Vento was different compared to Polo (atleast during the initial introduction period). Sunny and City are still configured with higher engine specifications. So ideally its not only space but probably for people who look for a little bit improved performance might consider sedan. For example I can very much assume sedan siblings might be able to cruise better than the hatchback versions just due to its higher engine specification.
But whereas Dzire, Amaze and indigo eCS looks to have the same tuning/ same looks but with a extended boot having a lighter metal sheet at the rear.
On a different note,
LIVA to etios we see the difference only in the petrol variant with respect to engine specifications that too we have the LIVA sportivo to match it up.
Punto (90) to LINEA, the looks are different atleast to certain extent.

Yes, a higher version of CS always gets all the safety comforts compared to entry level of sedan. But if a sedan's entry version has ABS+EBD, I will still prefer the sedan for its build compared to CS for the additional alloys and airbags.
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Old 27th October 2013, 18:23   #17
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

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The difference between top end compact sedans vs lowest variant C segment sedan is not just the price. Top end Dzire/Amaze will have alloy wheels, integrated music system, safety equipment (airbags/ABS), electric mirrors etc.

These might not be available in base models of Rapid/Vento/Linea/Sunny etc.
Thats another reason. A well informed guy would end up buying a lower better specced variant (though built to a cost) rather than a basic model of the next ladder, devoid of features even though with a better quality of build.

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
So clearly it is our tendency to overvalue a boot shape, irrespective of practical utility that accounts for their success.
Once people have locked on a compact sedan, then it all boils down to whats the best trim they can manage in the budget. So choice of boot would have been a debate between the hatch and the next available segment.

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(And let's recognise that the success of the Dzire, in particular, is not by a small margin - it is overwhelming)
Bothe products are a success thanks to their pricing along Maruti-service and Honda reliability branding/goodwill (and of course credibility to what they stand for)

Last edited by ampere : 27th October 2013 at 18:43.
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Old 27th October 2013, 18:27   #18
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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Hey, waitaminute! Aren't Vento, Sunny and City sedan variants of Polo, Micra and Jazz? How is the psychology of Vento/Sunny/City buyers different from that of Amaze/Dzire buyers?
The Vento / City / Sunny have proper boots - which offer storage space comparable to ground up D segment sedans like the Corolla or Civic. So one can understand the logic for considering them - esp if one is buying the higher end car in one's family. The extra rear seat room (at least for the Vento and Sunny) and the larger / more powerful engine is another selling proposition. The Amaze and the Dzire have pseudo boots - which offer a bit more than their own hatch variants but less than hatchback cars like the Jazz (and barely more than even hatches with small boots like the Polo). So clearly it is our tendency to overvalue a boot shape, irrespective of practical utility that accounts for their success. (And let's recognise that the success of the Dzire, in particular, is not by a small margin - it is overwhelming)

Last edited by Hayek : 27th October 2013 at 18:28.
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Old 27th October 2013, 18:37   #19
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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
The Vento / City / Sunny have proper boots - which offer storage space comparable to ground up D segment sedans like the Corolla or Civic. So one can understand the logic for ore than even hatches with small boots like the ....it is overwhelming)
The Honda City's boot can fit three golf bags laterally. The Civic's boot can only fit one! The Vento can manage two and so can the Sunny.

Personally, I quite like these little notch back hatches with boots, as a concept. Severely practical and functional as they are, they are indisputable proof of the manufacturer has risen to meet the clearly articulated consumer need!

That in itself, given this country's long history of having 'to make do', is epiphanic in its power!

Last edited by shankar.balan : 27th October 2013 at 18:39.
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Old 27th October 2013, 18:46   #20
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The success is the result of car manufacturers exploiting the psychology - Sedan is better than Hatch irrespective of the merits of the engineering or features in the car. The compact sedans also fetch a better margin for the car companies. A 6 lac Hatchback is expensive, but a 8 lac compact sedan based on that hatchback is VFM. I used to think that the Indian market would lose out on Good Hatchbacks due to this mindset, but luckily there seem to be some hope with VW launching Polo GT's, Mercedes launching A and B class and BMW the 1 series. Hopefully the trend continues.

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
The success of the sub 4 m sedans like the Dzire has always amazed me. These cars offer inferior boot space to versatile hatches like the Jazz, but far outsell them and command a higher price. The fact that all these products are made for India tells us something about the odd psychology of the mid end Indian car buyer.
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Old 27th October 2013, 19:23   #21
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do Dzire/Amaze get the job done? yes. With time, even the interiors and feature list has improved proving even more VFM with boot space and FE. Now, why would an indian buyer pay 1.5-2L more? hell, 100 bucks makes quite a difference in choosing a shirt. The cut-off is around 7L or so, which one feels, if a sedan comes in this budget, it is worth buying; then there is an associated feel good factor that the money has been well spent!

Sure, one lives with odd shapes, cramped space and designs, but, then a little bit of adjustment saves 2L! A 10L sedan from this point of view, looks pure luxury.

Last edited by stringbh : 27th October 2013 at 19:25. Reason: spellings
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Old 27th October 2013, 20:37   #22
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Originally Posted by androdev View Post
At approximately 20% higher we are getting VW Vento TDI highline, Nissan Sunny special edition, Honda City S+.
1) But at the base variant where are the safety features that are available on the top-end?

Your theory would make sense if the manufacturers provided an option to get ABS, EBD, 2 Airbags on the base and mid variant. If this happens then a customer would choose a lower variant with the safetu features included. Alloys, sound system is anyway after market stuff and better than the OEM's which can be added once delivery is done.

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Originally Posted by androdev View Post
The compact sedans have such in-your-face build-to-cost feel which left me wondering why wouldn't someone pay 20% more to get a car that is SO MUCH better built.
I don't agree on this point. I have driven the Dzire and Amaze and the feel and look doesn't depress me as to why did I buy it types! And the quality and feel has improved a lot over a period of time as compared to the models of Dzire when launched. It is a commendable improvement and it shows on the sales chart.

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Originally Posted by androdev View Post
But usually the top-end lower segment car feels equally rich compared to entry level next segment (Vento-Jetta, City-Civic, etc).
The customers that are buying the top-end variant have an idea of ABS, Airbags. So that is available in the top-end variant so they are on it for purchase and I am happy that we Indians are getting the awareness of safety features.

It would feel rich in the lower segment car with an high-end variant but the customers who are buying the Dzire and Amaze are actual hatchback buyers who have stretched the budget to accommodate these and that stretch itself is difficult so going up the segment for the 'Feel factor' is not justifiable.

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Originally Posted by androdev View Post
No offence meant for people buying compact sedans, maybe entry level ones make sense, but those who are buying top-end compact sedans should either stick to basic variant, or get the next segment.
Point 1, Repeat!

No offence to you too buddy!

OT: Waiting for the decision by your friend on the car that he chooses and Congratulations to him!

Anurag.
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Old 27th October 2013, 21:15   #23
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Originally Posted by anky View Post
I have a top end amaze diesel and vdi dzire . Both brand new . Yes interiors are built to a cost . But when I get 20kmpl in city and 24 on highway i'm smiling . For the amaze that is.
With all due respect I tend to disagree with your point. Do you think milage is the only essential thing in a purchasing a car? What about safety? Do not forget the performance neither dzire not amaze is going to give your performance anywhere close to a vento or city or even verna. In terms of boot space they are lesser than linea itself.
Edit: Nor do they look great compared to real sedan. Personal opinion only no offence to owners.

Last edited by Kratos453 : 27th October 2013 at 21:32.
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Old 27th October 2013, 21:25   #24
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Sir as we all know looks are subjective so we shall not discuss them . My amaze has 2 airbags and abs for safety . It has alloy wheels and auto fold mirrors . Alloys make a car look good auto fold mirrors are good for convenience . I have owned a indigo dicor top end for 7 years. . Car was good but Tata service was pathetic . That's why I did not buy linea as they were previously associated with Tata service . The car is great but service is still to be proven . Did not want to risk my hard earned money for suspect service . I have read. Vw horror stories in our forums and spares are expensive so did not buy Vento . I needed to change my alto and indigo . Hence I bought a dzire and amaze . Maruti for peace of mind and reliability . I owned an 800 from 1996 to 2004 and alto from 2004 to 2013 and indigo dicor from 2007 to 2013 . Now I needed diesel . Did not want to buy 2amaze so 1dzire vdi and 1amaze vxmt diesel. No offence to anyone intended . A Honda amaze is 100 ps with 200 nm torque . I'd say we measure all power to weight ratios of cars mentioned Vento linea and then compare with amaze . I'd guess amaze would be equal or not really far behind competition. I'm talking about amaze diesel as I have one . I do not know about petrol .

Last edited by anky : 27th October 2013 at 21:39.
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Old 27th October 2013, 21:42   #25
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

First of all, we humans are supremely adaptive.
Just imagine, if you HAVE TO use a m800 for a year? You would probably adapt to it after a few days - as a BHPian, you would still enjoy it no matter how small it is, and how simple the car is.

The point is, once a person buys a car, he generally justifies that it is best buy he could have bought. This is just natural. And that's fine too, because ultimately as long as the buyer "feels" good about his buy, that's all is required. The Original poster would have "felt" great about buying a Vento while another buyer who buys an Amaze feels great because he saved the 20%.

To each his own - as long as one "feels good" about his buy. I used to drive an Indica for 7 years, and it worked great for me. WHY - When everyone feels its very rudimentary and pathetic service? Because ultimately one learns to live with what you have and enjoy the positives of that car rather than fret about the negatives.

I bet that the "enjoyment" levels of an Amaze buyer is the same as that of a "Vento" buyer. In fact, let me go a step ahead and say that, buying a M800 for a student probably gives the same feeling for a big businessman as buying a Mercedes - both have spent a fortune (in their own capacities) - both of them would have stretched to buy their cars.

So, in summary - there is no good buy or bad buy. Its all in the mind.
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Old 27th October 2013, 21:47   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kratos453 View Post

Do you think milage is the only essential thing in a purchasing a car? What about safety? Do not forget the performance neither dzire not amaze is going to give your performance anywhere close to a vento or city or even verna. In terms of boot space they are lesser than linea itself. Nor do they look great compared to real sedan.
1. Sir, what makes you think swift dzire is an inherently unsafe car? Swift received euro NCAP rating of 5. I'm sure Dzire wouldn't do much bad either. And if adding a boot makes a hatch so unsafe, vento then is in the same category IMO.

2. The buyer in this segment is obviously not looking for performance. Even if we talk about performance,with 105ps vento isn't exactly a performance car either( i know it's very good to drive but then again swift/Dzire ain't bad either)

3. Boot space- it's more than the hatch version. That's all a buyer in that segment is looking for. He is not comparing other with a car a segment above.
No point comparing these cars with jazz. Jazz was not available in diesel and it was overpriced initially.

4. Looks are subjective. My dad loves Dzire's look. I absolutely hate it.
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Old 27th October 2013, 22:14   #27
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

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Originally Posted by Kratos453 View Post
With all due respect I tend to disagree with your point. Do you think mileage is the only essential thing in a purchasing a car? What about safety? Do not forget the performance neither dzire not amaze is going to give your performance anywhere close to a vento or city or even verna. In terms of boot space they are lesser than linea itself.
We in India have a main question to answer before any car/bike purchase. "Kitna Deti hai?!" If this question is not satisfied then the purchase is meaningless.

It is a important factor but safety is another one but not many are aware on that part and most of the lot run after the mileage.

I don't agree with you here. The amaze is the powerful car in the segment and is a refreshing vehicle and a change to the eye as every other car is either a Dzire or a Swift.

Fuel: Diesel

Honda Amaze i-DTEC:

Power : 99 PS @ 3600
Torque : 200 Nm @ 1750
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 93 BHP/Ton

Maruti Suzuki Dzire DDiS:

Power : 74 PS @ 4000
Torque : 190 Nm @ 2000
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 70 BHP/Ton

Fiat Linea MJD:

Power : 92 PS @ 4000
Torque : 209 Nm @ 2000
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 71 BHP/Ton

Volkswagen Vento TDi:

Power : 104 PS @ 3600
Torque : 250 Nm @ 1750
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 87 BHP/Ton

I did't consider the Honda City as it doesn't have a diesel engine.

Fuel: Petrol

Honda Amaze:

Power : 87 PS @ 6000
Torque : 109 Nm @ 4500
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 92 BHP/Ton

Maruti Suzuki Dzire :

Power : 86PS @ 6000
Torque : 114 Nm @ 4000
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 90 BHP/Ton

Fiat Linea:

Power : 89 PS @ 6000
Torque : 115 Nm @ 4500
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 72 BHP/Ton

Volkswagen Vento:

Power : 104 PS @ 5250
Torque : 153 Nm @ 3800
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 93 BHP/Ton

Honda City:

Power : 116 PS @ 4600
Torque : 146 Nm @ 4800
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 105 BHP/Ton

Here are the specifications taken from the Official review of the respective car given above and I hope you can see that the Amaze has the highest power-to-weight ratio that is one of the main factor in drive ability and pick-up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anky View Post
A Honda amaze is 100 ps with 200 nm torque . I'd say we measure all power to weight ratios of cars mentioned Vento linea and then compare with amaze . I'd guess amaze would be equal or not really far behind competition. I'm talking about amaze diesel as I have one . I do not know about petrol .
Here you go buddy. I have done it or you for both Petrol and Diesel.

The Honda Amaze equals itself to the next segment too at a cheaper price and efficiency. Hats Off Honda!

Anurag.

Last edited by a4anurag : 27th October 2013 at 22:17.
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Old 27th October 2013, 22:49   #28
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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
The success of the sub 4 m sedans like the Dzire has always amazed me. These cars offer inferior boot space to versatile hatches like the Jazz, but far outsell them and command a higher price. The fact that all these products are made for India tells us something about the odd psychology of the mid end Indian car buyer.
Bang on my friend, lets say you are a family of 2 and even a small hatch like a Polo or swift is more than enough but just to satisfy your neighbour and to make yourself look and feel "Established and successful" (you already are but this is just to let everyone else know that you can afford a sedan) you go ahead and buy a sub 4M sedan.
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Old 27th October 2013, 23:15   #29
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Bang on my friend, lets say you are a family of 2 and even a small hatch like a Polo or swift is more than enough but just to satisfy your neighbour and to make yourself look and feel "Established and successful" (you already are but this is just to let everyone else know that you can afford a sedan) you go ahead and buy a sub 4M sedan.
+100

The sedan gives an owner a bigger vehicle and gives a moral boost to his status as compared to a hatchback. The boot has a lot of positive affects and this is one of it.

How many have you seen the Maruti Dzire Ad?!

Anurag.
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Old 28th October 2013, 01:47   #30
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

When The compact sedan market was only consisting of the Dzire and the Indigo e-CS, I never really liked the compact sedans. The arrival of Amaze has changed the game.
Let us keep one thing in mind that the people buying diesels in the price range of 6-10lakhs want a practical car which has-
1. Good fuel efficiency
2. Preferably a boot
3. cheap maintenance cost
4. Widely spread after sales service
5. Tested products/brands are always preferred.
6. The one who care about safety consider ABS and air bags.
We should not be considering the enthusiast point of view here. Firstly enthusiast and a diesel car really don't go well. ( its like saying in hindi-'yeh baat kuch hajam nahi hui' )
What Amaze offers you-
1. Efficient diesel engine
2. Power is good considering its a compact sedan. ( a4anurag has already given the data regarding the power to weight ratio)
3. It's a Japanese car we can not compare it to any German car. Reliability is a major concern for buyers in this price range.
4. Honda's after sales service is good.
5. The game changer here is the safety. Honda Amaze has ABS with brake assist EBD standard on all its diesel variants.
The Vento, Sunny, Rapid, Fiesta and SX4 are good sedans. No doubt about that but for a person spending money within 10 lakhs jumping across a segment and spending 2 lakhs is a big deal. People think 100 times while thinking on variants. A segment is a very big deal. The Amaze is undoubtedly a game changer in the compact sedan segment.
By the way this is from a personal experience but the Dzire doesnt handle that bad too Drove it once for a good distance of 90kms.
Cheers
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