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Old 28th October 2013, 12:49   #46
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

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Originally Posted by androdev View Post
I feel Vento and City are such fabulous looking cars inside/out. They are true global cars with a lot more budget and resources to design and manufacture.
Another point is C segment sedan offer better ride quality than B+ sedans.
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1. Fuel efficiency: even if you have a whopping 20kmpl vs 15kmpl difference (diesel to diesel), that translates to around Rs 10K per year. Relative to 10L price of the car, this amount should not influence the decision making.
People decide on small car (hatchback) or big car (sedan). When they decide on sedan, next criteria is maximum FE followed by service network. In which case the option is Dzire.
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Old 28th October 2013, 13:03   #47
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2. Sedan vs Hatch: As many members have said the cars like i20, Jazz are global proper cars with better space, quality, features, etc. If anyone thinks a Dzire will earn admiration/respect compared to i20/Jazz they are just not very bright. I kinda agree that a Sedan wins in our society, but at least buy a sedan that feels richer than a hatchback.
Faced immense hate from friends, relatives and neighbours (relatives especially) when I bought my Jazz 4 years ago. It was a new launch in India and at the time cost me 7.7 lac OTR. You wont believe just how many self-appointed "car gurus" laughed and gave out their unwanted remarks about the inverse ratio of amount of metal bought for price tag. Simple rule in India, the more you pay, the more metal and plastic should be received.

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Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
+100.
When I bought Jazz, I compared it with compact sedans as well other than B+ hatchbacks and found it to offer more or equivalent interior space, boot space and better quality than so-called sedans.
People are happy to cough up 7+L for Amaze or Dzire (petrol) but finds the Jazz overpriced! It's just our pre-historic mindset of Sedan =Big car and hatcback=small car .
Hope the mindset will change soon..actually, I think the change is happening albeit slowly. There are many who are preferring B+ hatchbacks like I20 offering space, features, quality rather than so-called sub 4M sedans
I'm with you on this one. The same story exactly when I bought the Jazz 4 years ago. "arrey saab itne me toh verna/vento/"deejire" aa jaati."

Last edited by GTO : 28th October 2013 at 14:23. Reason: Please use the EDIT or MULTI-QUOTE buttons instead of typing one post after another!
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Old 28th October 2013, 13:35   #48
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Pappu is a middle class guy, working in some random service based IT company. He is married, and has a kid on the way. He wants to buy a new car for his family which can cater to the Indian Philosophy - Daam Kum, Kaam Zyada ( Costs less, Works more). He has a budget of around 9 lakhs. What car will Pappu buy? A Compact Sedan fits the bill for Pappu.
Why? Well, I'll give you the reasons...

At the family dinner with the in-laws, his parents can beam with pride that their son has got a sedan, not some cheapo maruti type hatch back.

At the office, his moronic team-mates will shower praises on him for buying a car that can fit 3 in the rear seats, instead of a crummy so called "Hot Hatch" like a Polo TSI that can't even fit 2 comfortably.

His wife will dote on him because among the neighborhood car park, theirs is the only one that can carry their child seat and still have room in the back for additional shopping, and perhaps a dog.

His in-laws will be mightly pleased because their beloved son-in-law has a car that can carry all their luggage from the railway station, along with bundles of mango pickle, safely to their house.

His wallet will be mightly pleased as well, because when it's time to tank up, his compact diesel sedan will have returned a whopping fuel efficiency of 18kmpl in the city! Whereas the other guy at his workplace, who bought a Polo TSI can only boast of 9-10kmpl while being powered by Petrol. Hah!

Come on fellas. It's not that hard to put 2 & 2 together.

Why do Compact Sedans sell in high numbers? Simple!

It's because we are all Indians. And what do Indians want? We all want the following - Daam Kum, Kaam Zyada ( Costs less, works more)

PS: Post written as a joke. No offence meant to anyone who owns a Compact Sedan or a Polo TSI
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Old 28th October 2013, 14:31   #49
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

Indians still considers hatches inferior, and consider sedans to be status symbols. Even estates (remember Indigo Marina?), which are more practical than sedans find no takers. If you want the world to know you have arrived, go get a sedan.

Additionally, with compact sedans you get the feeling that you shortchanged the government (which incidentally happens to be the most hated entity) of 12% tax, and that adds to your pleasure.

Psychologically, we don't mind spending more to get a 12% discount.

For example,
you go to buy a shirt,
you find 2 shirts that you like very much,
one costs 800 bucks,
while the other costs 1000 bucks but with a 10% discount,
you would stretch yourself and get the second shirt,
because you think that you are actually "saving" 100 bucks by buying it.

Last edited by ecosport : 28th October 2013 at 14:43.
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Old 28th October 2013, 14:47   #50
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

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Originally Posted by sourav9385 View Post
At the office, his moronic team-mates will shower praises on him for buying a car that can fit 3 in the rear seats, instead of a crummy so called "Hot Hatch" like a Polo TSI that can't even fit 2 comfortably.

PS: Post written as a joke. No offence meant to anyone who owns a Compact Sedan or a Polo TSI
The joke is on the Owners actually. Cars like Dzire have poor rear bench space even by hatch standards. The addition of an ridiculous, obnoxious boot (+100 odd litres?) covered by the thinnest metal in Indian Auto History converts a capable smart looking hatch into an eye sore in the name of a compact sedan. But it sells. Welcome to India.
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Old 28th October 2013, 14:53   #51
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

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Originally Posted by lemedico View Post
I'm with you on this one. The same story exactly when I bought the Jazz 4 years ago.
A colleague sits with me in my new Sail UVA. We go for a short drive. He is thoroughly impressed by the space and the suspension.

Then when he asks me how much I paid he is very pissed at how someone bought this hatchback instead of an Amaze or a Dzire.
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Old 28th October 2013, 15:22   #52
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

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Originally Posted by midazolam View Post
1. Sir, what makes you think swift dzire is an inherently unsafe car? Swift received euro NCAP rating of 5. I'm sure Dzire wouldn't do much bad either. And if adding a boot makes a hatch so unsafe, vento then is in the same category IMO.

It has to be noted that the Swift in question is the European version of the Swift. In my opinion, car makers have been known to compromise on safety, in India. Maruti is an example of this. Ever been to the Accidents in India thread? You can see umpteen examples of the Dzires pathetic build quality, particularly of the rear boot.

Secondly, regarding the adding hatches part. It has to be noted that the Polo has superior build quality to the Swift. And Volkswagen is an European car manufacturer, and the Europeans, in general, pay extra attention to safety, VW being no exception.

Also, have you knocked and checked the difference in the Dzires and Ventos build quality? The Vento is leagues better!


Hence, we hereby conclude that the Dzire has pathetic build.


P.S: No offence intended to Dzire owners. Every car is a gem in itself.


Cheers!

Fintail/Heckflosse!

Last edited by noopster : 28th October 2013 at 17:34. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 28th October 2013, 15:35   #53
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
I know somebody on Team-BHP who applied similar logic across various segments and ended up with a Mercedes S Class!
Below the belt I know my criminal past doesn't allow me to make a case such as this. This time I was working with strict budget as the car is for someone else. Amaze seemed like a good choice, but at 9.5L I was pretty taken aback!
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Old 28th October 2013, 15:48   #54
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

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Originally Posted by FINTAIL View Post
It has to be noted that the Swift in question is the European version of the Swift. In my opinion, car makers have been known to compromise on safety, in India. Maruti is an example of this. Ever been to the Accidents in India thread? You can see umpteen examples of the Dzires pathetic build quality, particularly of the rear boot. Hence, we hereby conclude that the Dzire has pathetic build.
You are saying about safety features in the cars of today, where is awareness in the minds and why is the government not pressurizing the manufacturers to make safety standard across all variants and only why top-end?

Money, the Ex-showroom price goes up and so does the OTR when compared to a basic variant and a top-end. So do you feel the average Indian "Pappu" would be able to afford the top-end? I don't think so.

If you argue with the prospective buyers of the lower and mid-variant on safety features like ABS and airbags the standard reply I get is "We all drive at 40-50 kmph so for this speed why ABS and airbags, normal brakes are enough!". When such is the argument only god can save these guys.

Education and awareness can only inculcate the need of the safety equipments in the vehicles and moreover these are all secondary safety features.. First the users must start using the primary safety features seat belts and safe driving practices (Lane driving, indicator usage, speed limits etc).

Seat belts: Primary restraint system;
ABS : Secondary restraint system.

So if the primary is not followed what great help will the secondary be off!

Quoting my own post from another thread here:
Quote:
When given that option, as is the case in small cars, most Indian buyers choose not to exercise it — ABS and air bags add 8-10% to the price of a Rs 5 lakh car. According to a Frost & Sullivan study, while 55% of passenger vehicles sold in 2012-13 in India had power windows, only 28% had air bags.

Buyers are more interested in “bells and whistles”, says CV Raman, R&D head of Maruti Suzuki, India’s largest car manufacturer and the maker of Alto K10.

For manufacturers like Maruti, it’s a Catch-22 situation. They want to make their cars safer, but they fear losing buyers to rivals if they turn safety features like ABS into essentials. So, they try to balance safety and sales.

“Customers prefer the mid variant—which is cheaper by up to Rs 40,000 —to the top variant, and then equip them with comfort and convenient features instead of safety features,” says Raman.

Maruti has seen the share of its top-end variants, with all safety features, in its sales decline from 20% to 5% in the last few years. Toyota is seeing a similar trend.

Occupant safety is assessed by conducting a full frontal crash at 48 km per hour. In Europe and the US, this test is conducted at 56 km per hour.

Developed markets like the US and Europe also insist on features that address side and rear impact, roll overs, pedestrian and electronic stability protection. In India, frontal or side impact tests are neither compulsory nor regulated.
Here is the Source: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/24628223.cms

No offence to you.

Anurag.
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Old 28th October 2013, 20:24   #55
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
You are saying about safety features in the cars of today, where is awareness in the minds and why is the government not pressurizing the manufacturers to make safety standard across all variants and only why top-end?

Money, the Ex-showroom price goes up and so does the OTR when compared to a basic variant and a top-end. So do you feel the average Indian "Pappu" would be able to afford the top-end? I don't think so.

If you argue with the prospective buyers of the lower and mid-variant on safety features like ABS and airbags the standard reply I get is "We all drive at 40-50 kmph so for this speed why ABS and airbags, normal brakes are enough!". When such is the argument only god can save these guys.

Education and awareness can only inculcate the need of the safety equipments in the vehicles and moreover these are all secondary safety features.. First the users must start using the primary safety features seat belts and safe driving practices (Lane driving, indicator usage, speed limits etc).

Seat belts: Primary restraint system;
ABS : Secondary restraint system.

So if the primary is not followed what great help will the secondary be off!

Quoting my own post from another thread here:


Here is the Source: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/24628223.cms

No offence to you.

Anurag.

No offence taken!


Cheers!

Fintail/Heckflosse!

Last edited by FINTAIL : 28th October 2013 at 20:26.
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Old 28th October 2013, 20:44   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sourav9385 View Post
Pappu is a middle class guy, working in some random service based IT company. He is married, and has a kid on the way. He wants to buy a new car for his family which can cater to the Indian Philosophy - Daam Kum, Kaam Zyada ( Costs less, Works more). He has a budget of around 9 lakhs. What car will Pappu buy? A wered by Petrol. Hah! Come on fellas. It's not that hard to put 2 & 2 together. Why do Compact Sedans sell in high numbers? Simple! It's because we are all Indians. And what do Indians want? We all want the following - Daam Kum, Kaam Zyada ( Costs less, works more) PS: Post written as a joke. No offence meant to anyone who owns a Compact Sedan or a Polo TSI



Superbly put. This is so very true of so many middle class people!
And why not? We have 'Value seeking behaviour' hard-wired in our DNA as a race!
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Old 28th October 2013, 22:43   #57
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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post

Superbly put. This is so very true of so many middle class people!
And why not? We have 'Value seeking behaviour' hard-wired in our DNA as a race!

Fun fact 1

2005 TATA Indigo LS price ex showroom 4.85 lakhs.

2013 Tata Indigo LS with 70 ltr less boot space. Same engine.improved gearshift,improved suspension, improved NVH. (CS ) ex showroom price 5.00 lakhs after discounts.

FUN FACT 2

TATA Indigo lx ( no ABS, no airbags)

2005 ex showroom price 5.23 lakhs.

HONDA Amaze vs Tata Indigo lx.

100 PS vs 70 PS. 200 NM (1750 rpm) vs 125 NM(2500 rpm). 25 kmpl vs 18 kmpl. 420 ltr boot vs 450 ltr boot .Brand Honda vs Brand Tata. ABS vs no ABS. Better rear seat comfort.

Honda Amaze 2013 e-mt diesel ex showroom price. 5.99 lakhs.


A better Tata indigo with a chopped boot available almost the same price as 2005 .

A much better car from Honda at just 15% more cost. And adjusting for inflation the Honda would work out cheaper than the Tata Indigo at 2005 price parity.

These are incredible value for money buys. A Tata buyer is a Tata buyer in the suburbs. VW, Honda,Toyota, fiat don't exist in the suburbs, nor can people afford the expensive repairs.


And the Amaze is an intriguing package that targets B,C1,C2,Automatic segments.

Last edited by drsingh : 28th October 2013 at 22:58.
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Old 29th October 2013, 01:44   #58
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sourav9385 View Post
Pappu is a middle class guy, working in some random service based IT company. He is married, and has a kid on the way. He wants to buy a new car for his family which can cater to the Indian Philosophy - Daam Kum, Kaam Zyada ( Costs less, Works more). He has a budget of around 9 lakhs. What car will Pappu buy? A Compact Sedan fits the bill for Pappu.
Why? Well, I'll give you the reasons...

At the family dinner with the in-laws, his parents can beam with pride that their son has got a sedan, not some cheapo maruti type hatch back.

At the office, his moronic team-mates will shower praises on him for buying a car that can fit 3 in the rear seats, instead of a crummy so called "Hot Hatch" like a Polo TSI that can't even fit 2 comfortably.

His wife will dote on him because among the neighborhood car park, theirs is the only one that can carry their child seat and still have room in the back for additional shopping, and perhaps a dog.

His in-laws will be mightly pleased because their beloved son-in-law has a car that can carry all their luggage from the railway station, along with bundles of mango pickle, safely to their house.

His wallet will be mightly pleased as well, because when it's time to tank up, his compact diesel sedan will have returned a whopping fuel efficiency of 18kmpl in the city! Whereas the other guy at his workplace, who bought a Polo TSI can only boast of 9-10kmpl while being powered by Petrol. Hah!

Come on fellas. It's not that hard to put 2 & 2 together.

Why do Compact Sedans sell in high numbers? Simple!

It's because we are all Indians. And what do Indians want? We all want the following - Daam Kum, Kaam Zyada ( Costs less, works more)

PS: Post written as a joke. No offence meant to anyone who owns a Compact Sedan or a Polo TSI
Love the humor but because you are comparing it with a Polo TSI. That is patently illogical.

The comparison should be between a swift dzire and a swift.
You pay 53k (chennai) + taxes for basically upgrading from 204L (Maruti Swift : Test Drive & Review)to 315L boot. That is hardly very useful for most people on a day to day basis. I think you're simply getting creative in the underlined sections above. I mean, a dZire is not the awesome Jazz which had a 366L boot that was more usable. But it is history.

I completely understand and agree with the core logic (esp in Delhi!):
Quote:
his parents can beam with pride that their son has got a sedan, not some cheapo maruti type hatch back.
THAT is the real truth - its more image, and not often about "daam kum, kaam zyaada".

But then, the question to ask ourselves, on Team-BHP is:
Are we all sheeple or is there more to our car purchases than just meeting others' (often illogical) expectations?

That's why androdev has posted his thoughts here - its about the discerning few, and not the pappus of the world

Subtle but key difference in the audience.
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Old 29th October 2013, 08:56   #59
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
But then, the question to ask ourselves, on Team-BHP is:
Are we all sheeple or is there more to our car purchases than just meeting others' (often illogical) expectations?

That's why androdev has posted his thoughts here - its about the discerning few, and not the pappus of the world

Subtle but key difference in the audience.
No wonder you are a Distinguished - BHPian

Your logic is absolutely correct, as is your comparison. I had put up my post simply to highlight the current crop of people buying compact sedans. Who don't really care about boot space or build quality. After all, IMHO, compact sedans have been designed with such people in mind. Who want to show off their "Big-Car-buying-ability" for a limited price. Quality be damned.

And obviously, the discerning few, especially from our knowledgeable community, will know which is chalk and which is cheese.
No wonder there are so many folks here who've plonked their hard earned money down on petrol powered hot hatches, society and in-laws be damned .

Again, no offence meant to anyone. It's all just playful banter.
In case you feel offended or feel like stabbing me in the heart, then I sincerely apologize. It was not my intention to hurt/aggravate you at all. Cheers!
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Old 29th October 2013, 09:02   #60
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

I can perfectly understand the reason why a common man ("pappu") may want to go for a bigger car - better road presence, perceived higher status among friends and relatives etc etc.

But I fail to understand why a sub 4M sedan like Dzire or Amaze is 'bigger' than a premium hatchback like I20/Jazz. If anything, the hatch will have more volume and more metal due to the shape

I also understand that a normal person would want good boot space..in fact, when I was buying a car, I had that as one of the criteria. Now, the Dzire at 310 litres offers much less boot space than Jazz at 366. Even the Fabia has similar boot space and the I20 is also close to 300 liters. Also, because of the shape, a hatchback with 300 litres boot space offers more flexibility in carrying luggage than a sedan with similar boot space with foldable rear seats, split seats etc.

To me, the only reason why the sub 4M sedans are making a killing in our market is -
The shape, period. Just because historically, bigger cars were shaped like a sedan and smaller cars like hatchback, people still have the same association with the shape of the car. That's why I said pre-historic mindset in my earlier comment..Its not about bigger car, more boot space, or more interior space - those are perfectly logical and valid reasons IMO but unfortunately the real reason in anything but logical ..

Last edited by adimicra : 29th October 2013 at 09:31.
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