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Old 29th October 2013, 09:18   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FINTAIL View Post

It has to be noted that the Swift in question is the European version of the Swift.

Also, have you knocked and checked the difference in the Dzires and Ventos build quality? The Vento is leagues better!



Fintail/Heckflosse!
I was obviously not comparing the build quality of polo/vento to swift/dzire. The vento/polo is obviously leagues ahead.
What I was comparing was the build quality of the hatches to their respective sedans, that should be same.

Regarding quality compromise on the cars sold in India as compared to those in EU, I was actually talking about the higher versions with ABS, airbags and such. I don't think there would be much difference in these versions.

Btw, no offence taken. I don't own a dzire/amaze. I prefer a hatch myself but I just think, if a person wants to buys a sedan and he can't afford anything else, then what's the harm
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Old 29th October 2013, 09:44   #62
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

IMO, Compact sedans and compact SUVs are ending up as just a new way for the manufacturers to rip off the customers in the name of lower excise duty and lower price.

When Indigo CS was originally introduced and when the new DZire was introduced with a price cut, the benefits of lower excise duty (~60k I think) was passed on to the customers. Same when Amaze and Ecosport were launched, with the base variants priced attractively to give an impression of VFM 'sedan' and 'SUV'.

What we saw later was the price revisions and moving a chunk of the amount gained out of excise duty into their profit margins. What Tata did was the ideal way of dealing with it - have a hatch, CS and a full size sedan so that the customers can choose. What Maruti did was something different - withdraw the full size sedan option and force the customers to buy CS so that the segment is perceived to be a super hit. Given a choice of a full size DZire alongside the CS, it would have been interesting to see how many would have went for CS to save 60k.

Same goes with Ecosport - they met all the requirements of a compact SUV to save taxes and launched at an amazing launch price, but the current prices of the higher variants doesn't seem to reflect it being fully passed on to the customers. Moreover, Ecosport doesn't have a hatch sibling against which we can have a sanity check of the price. Are we really gaining anything by compromising on a quirkier and smaller car if we are not really getting the price advantage?

Last edited by zenren : 29th October 2013 at 09:46.
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Old 29th October 2013, 11:35   #63
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by drsingh View Post
Fun fact 1

2005 TATA Indigo LS price ex showroom 4.85 lakhs.

2013 Tata Indigo LS with 70 ltr less boot space. Same engine.improved gearshift,improved suspension, improved NVH. (CS ) ex showroom price 5.00 lakhs after discounts.

FUN FACT 2

TATA Indigo lx ( no ABS, no airbags)

2005 ex showroom price 5.23 lakhs.

HONDA Amaze vs Tata Indigo lx.

100 PS vs 70 PS. 200 NM (1750 rpm) vs 125 NM(2500 rpm). 25 kmpl vs 18 kmpl. 420 ltr boot vs 450 ltr boot .Brand Honda vs Brand Tata. ABS vs no ABS. Better rear seat comfort.

Honda Amaze 2013 e-mt diesel ex showroom price. 5.99 lakhs.

A better Tata indigo with a chopped boot available almost the same price as 2005 .

A much better car from Honda at just 15% more cost. And adjusting for inflation the Honda would work out cheaper than the Tata Indigo at 2005 price parity.
Little correction... the boot space of Amaze is 400 liters & Indigo CS with 380 Liters. Regular sedans like the Vento, Rapid & Fiesta do not have 450 liters boot space (~ 440 liters to be precise).

The petrol mills of these cars (Vento TSI excluded) are nothing to rave about, a petrol buyer will obviously be inclined to buy he i-VTec Amaze, at much cheap prices... & maintaining few of these (hatches extended to full size) cars is an experience in itself.

IMO there is strong case for Amazing packages... despite not being DZireable for few affluent ones.

Tata is the only big loser here because of its notorious QC, which functions same as Government departments.
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Old 29th October 2013, 11:36   #64
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Post Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by anky View Post
Sir as we all know looks are subjective so we shall not discuss them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by midazolam View Post
4. Looks are subjective. My dad loves Dzire's look. I absolutely hate it.
Hi! I guess you have mistook my comment. My intention was not to refer Honda Amaze or Maruti Swift Dzire as bad looking cars rather I wanted to say that the compact sedan's are not as good looking as a sedan (since the debate is between a compact sedan and a sedan) such as Honda City or Verna or Vento.

Please touch your heart and then say Honda Amaze or Maruti Dzire is a better looking car than a Hyundai Verna or Honda City or Fiat Linea.


Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
It is a important factor but safety is another one but not many are aware on that part and most of the lot run after the mileage.

I don't agree with you here. The amaze is the powerful car in the segment and is a refreshing vehicle and a change to the eye as every other car is either a Dzire or a Swift.

Fuel: Diesel

Honda Amaze i-DTEC:

Power : 99 PS @ 3600
Torque : 200 Nm @ 1750
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 93 BHP/Ton

Maruti Suzuki Dzire DDiS:

Power : 74 PS @ 4000
Torque : 190 Nm @ 2000
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 70 BHP/Ton

Fiat Linea MJD:

Power : 92 PS @ 4000
Torque : 209 Nm @ 2000
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 71 BHP/Ton

Volkswagen Vento TDi:

Power : 104 PS @ 3600
Torque : 250 Nm @ 1750
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 87 BHP/Ton

I did't consider the Honda City as it doesn't have a diesel engine.

Fuel: Petrol

Honda Amaze:

Power : 87 PS @ 6000
Torque : 109 Nm @ 4500
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 92 BHP/Ton

Maruti Suzuki Dzire :

Power : 86PS @ 6000
Torque : 114 Nm @ 4000
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 90 BHP/Ton

Fiat Linea:

Power : 89 PS @ 6000
Torque : 115 Nm @ 4500
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 72 BHP/Ton

Volkswagen Vento:

Power : 104 PS @ 5250
Torque : 153 Nm @ 3800
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 93 BHP/Ton

Honda City:

Power : 116 PS @ 4600
Torque : 146 Nm @ 4800
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 105 BHP/Ton

Here are the specifications taken from the Official review of the respective car given above and I hope you can see that the Amaze has the highest power-to-weight ratio that is one of the main factor in drive ability and pick-up.



Here you go buddy. I have done it or you for both Petrol and Diesel.

The Honda Amaze equals itself to the next segment too at a cheaper price and efficiency. Hats Off Honda!

Anurag.
Hi a4anurag,

I have a different kind of comparision for you. Please check out the comparison given below:

Name:  image1.jpg
Views: 982
Size:  47.4 KB

source: http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...e_1413735g.jpg

I did not find any difference between the Brio and Amaze apart from the length. In such a case why compare the Amaze with a sedan? I am fascinated by the data you have provided. Thanks for the information but let us compare Honda with Honda.

Honda City:

Power : 116 PS @ 4600
Torque : 146 Nm @ 4800
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 105 BHP/Ton

Honda Amaze:

Power : 87 PS @ 6000
Torque : 109 Nm @ 4500
Power-to-Weight Ratio : 92 BHP/Ton

From the above Honda City wins hands down. I am sure in almost all aspects Honda City is going to prove superior to Honda Amaze.

Now coming to the diesel engine I would love to compare the Honda Amaze diesel when Honda City diesel arrives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sourav9385 View Post
At the family dinner with the in-laws, his parents can beam with pride that their son has got a sedan, not some cheapo maruti type hatch back.

At the office, his moronic team-mates will shower praises on him for buying a car that can fit 3 in the rear seats, instead of a crummy so called "Hot Hatch" like a Polo TSI that can't even fit 2 comfortably.

His wife will dote on him because among the neighborhood car park, theirs is the only one that can carry their child seat and still have room in the back for additional shopping, and perhaps a dog.

His in-laws will be mightly pleased because their beloved son-in-law has a car that can carry all their luggage from the railway station, along with bundles of mango pickle, safely to their house.

His wallet will be mightly pleased as well, because when it's time to tank up, his compact diesel sedan will have returned a whopping fuel efficiency of 18kmpl in the city! Whereas the other guy at his workplace, who bought a Polo TSI can only boast of 9-10kmpl while being powered by Petrol. Hah!

Come on fellas. It's not that hard to put 2 & 2 together.

Why do Compact Sedans sell in high numbers? Simple!

It's because we are all Indians. And what do Indians want? We all want the following - Daam Kum, Kaam Zyada ( Costs less, works more)

PS: Post written as a joke. No offence meant to anyone who owns a Compact Sedan or a Polo TSI
No offence taken. Looking at all the points above I have noticed that you are giving preference to space, mileage and status. Polo is for a different league of people and hence comparing a Polo does not make sense here. Also if status matters then no hatch provides more status than a Volkswagen Polo. And for the above requirements a Renault Duster or a Ford Ecosport would do good. Why consider a sedan at first place when there is no need of performance for pappu?

Note: Please don't blast me guys, I mean no offence to anyone and I love Honda Amaze as well as Maruti Dzire. Somehow I am not able to form any sort of relationship with a compact sedan. Let us have this as a discussion than a debate
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Old 29th October 2013, 11:44   #65
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Talking Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sourav9385 View Post
No wonder there are so many folks here who've plonked their hard earned money down on petrol powered hot hatches, society and in-laws be damned .

Again, no offence meant to anyone. It's all just playful banter.
In case you feel offended or feel like stabbing me in the heart, then I sincerely apologize. It was not my intention to hurt/aggravate you at all. Cheers!
Ah, I completely liked the playful way you wrote it - no offence taken whatsoever (hint - read my sig, or its old version!). You captured the mentality perfectly.

But that said, let's plan for a chennai meet sometime. Let the non-pappus meet
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Old 29th October 2013, 12:30   #66
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
But I fail to understand why a sub 4M sedan like Dzire or Amaze is 'bigger' than a premium hatchback like I20/Jazz. If anything, the hatch will have more volume and more metal due to the shape
------
Now, the Dzire at 310 litres offers much less boot space than Jazz at 366. Even the Fabia has similar boot space and the I20 is also close to 300 liters. Also, because of the shape, a hatchback with 300 litres boot space offers more flexibility in carrying luggage than a sedan with similar boot space with foldable rear seats, split seats etc.
My neighbour has a new gen Swift Dzire and I own an i20. Now, in our apartment parking, both cars are parked side by side paralelly. This was when the obvious space difference between the two cars became apparent. Both are similar in length, but my i20 is wider than the Dzire. The i20 passenger cabin (end of the rear seat recline) strectches much beyond that of the Dzire whcih means it has better leg room. And the boot is equally big, thanks to the hatchback design. Added to that the versatility that my i20 provides (split seats, fully folding rear bench etc) simply means that the Dzire is not so Daam Kum, Kaam Jyaada as it is perceived to be.
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Old 29th October 2013, 12:51   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post

Little correction... the boot space of Amaze is 400 liters & Indigo CS with 380 Liters. Regular sedans like the Vento, Rapid & Fiesta do not have 450 liters boot space (~ 440 liters to be precise).
I am comparing a full Indigo with the Amaze.Amaze has another 20 ltrs of boot space under the boot tray.

And the CS has 450 - 70 = 380 ltrs boot.

It was just some data I put into perspective after I found an original Tata Indigo bill

I am all for variety and experimentation in the market.

Tata chopped off the boot ----> Suzuki adds a boot -------> Honda comes up with the Amaze. Evolution.


When Honda launches the new jazz at an attractive price with a diesel engine , maybe people will give it a serious look .

But I agree with the OP that they are attractive at the lower end models and top end model is less attractive as compared to a vento/rapid.
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Old 29th October 2013, 13:28   #68
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
To me, the only reason why the sub 4M sedans are making a killing in our market is - The shape, period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by racer_ash View Post
Added to that the versatility that my i20 provides (split seats, fully folding rear bench etc) simply means that the Dzire is not so Daam Kum, Kaam Jyaada as it is perceived to be.
+1
You have to add to that the perceived feeling that long term CS ownership will keep the maintenance costs down compared to an actual sedan, say, spare parts, FE... list goes on. Also, the market sentiment that Maruti is one of the cheapest to own. A Dzire launched by VW would probably not do that well.
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Old 29th October 2013, 13:48   #69
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Wow! Some great humour here! Personally I have always liked hatchbacks for their practicality. However I have generally owned Jeep type things in preference to all other types of vehicles.

Now I ve gone back to a vehicle which is part Jeep type and part hatchback car and I absolutely love the compactness and ease of use without having the added protruberance of the boot!

I absolutely love station wagons too, especially the souped up AWD versions you get abroad, complete with tow hooks and such!

Unfortunately in our home country there seems to be only a very small minority of nutty blokes who seem to like these kinds of vehicles! I cannot for the life of me fathom why the mere addition of a boot to the posterior of a car automatically adds 'status' to the user too!

Of course compact sedans are hugely practical and serve well to separate luggage from the passengers; but status? There is no accounting for India's behaviour and preferences as a market!

Last edited by shankar.balan : 29th October 2013 at 13:53.
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Old 29th October 2013, 13:52   #70
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

I think its a personal choice really. If one wants a boot which obviously offers some practicality then why not? Secondly, cost is a big factor. If my memory serves right, the Price of a VDI Dzire in Bangalore is about 7.8 lakhs, now compare that to an entry level vento / Sunny / Rapid which are in the range of 9.8 to 10.5 lakhs. So that's a lot of money! If there is no budget constraint, then one could keep stretching to a Bentley right?
And to be fair on the consumer, all he is looking for is a practical car. And Automobile companies have found a way to work around with the set rules. So what's the harm really?
Comparisons to hatchbacks like Jazz / I20 are fair, but if millions of Indians want a product like this, then you got to give it to them right? Every country has its own culture and way of looking at things, so why single out the indian buyer? In the U.S.A, people used to only want sedans even if it wasnt for a practical reason. They just liked their cars, engines Big! So can you find fault with the American customer or the American auto companies for doing that?
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Old 29th October 2013, 14:09   #71
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by drsingh View Post
I am comparing a full Indigo with the Amaze.Amaze has another 20 ltrs of boot space under the boot tray.

And the CS has 450 - 70 = 380 ltrs boot.
Doctor Saab

Your facts re Indigo are spot on, however, re Amaze are not correct. The boot capacity of the Amaze is 400 liters, which includes space under the boot tray, otherwise it is 380 liters. If you refer the Indonesia launch of Amaze, this was clearly marketed by Honda, not in India (unless someone can locate such data).

However, I won't be continuing this (boot capacity) discussion, lest we may go .
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Old 29th October 2013, 22:04   #72
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IMHO the most people buy hatchbacks with a boot strapped on (as a afterthought) due to only 1 reason. The reason is caste system i.e. if my car has a boot then I'm an upper cast (at least in my mind)... Just to ask the so called Dezirers or Amazers how many times (and how many of them) do they do highway trips with their boots loaded to the brim? The fact is that most of these cars live out their lives doing run up the mill rounds in the city traffic.

If you look at the current Dezire for example. IMO its the most purposeless car in the history of motoring. Here's why:
1. It costs more than the hatchback sibling.
2. It does not drive as well as the Swift.
3. No extra ordinary features/space or quality.
4. And the boot space is not so great (due to the sub 4 meter thingy) either.

So why does it sell in such huge numbers...? Caste System is the answer.
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Old 29th October 2013, 23:00   #73
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This phenomenon is always there when you have lot of choices in the market and does not have fixed budget and plan. If you think further you can move all the way from hatcback to a D segment sedan or higher. A higher end variant of entry level sedan ensures that one gets safety features and that is something which makes lot of sense in my opinion. Some may also be influenced by other factors like parking space constraints at home, ease of driving and negotiating tight spots in city etc. But of course if money is no concern and no other dependency, it makes lot of sense to go for the next level.
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Old 29th October 2013, 23:27   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
To me, the only reason why the sub 4M sedans are making a killing in our market is -
The shape, period. Just because historically, bigger cars were shaped like a sedan and smaller cars like hatchback, people still have the same association with the shape of the car. That's why I said pre-historic mindset in my earlier comment..Its not about bigger car, more boot space, or more interior space - those are perfectly logical and valid reasons IMO but unfortunately the real reason in anything but logical ..



One of my colleagues recently advised me I should have gone for a 'badi gaadi' when I told him I bought a Punto. When I asked which 'badi gaadi' I will get for the same price, pat came the reply Dzire or Amaze. While the Amaze is spacious on the inside, it was very evident from his talking that, for him it is a 'badi gaad' only because of the shape.

It is indeed true that it is the shape of a sedan which actually entices many people to be buying these sub 4 M sedans (Please note I am not talking about the people who make informed decision about buying these cars). If it is all about practicality, then a hatchback with the same interior space as an Amaze/Dzire and the same exterior dimensions as these cars would have a bigger and more usable boot.

So while Honda went ahead, designed a longer car out of the Brio platform and gave it a sedan shape, why did they not think of making a bigger Hatchback out of the same dimensions as the Amaze?

Simple answer, the hatchback wont have the same percieved image as that of a sedan.

Last edited by vibbs : 29th October 2013 at 23:29.
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Old 30th October 2013, 07:13   #75
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Default Re: Compact sedan? No thank you!

Compact sedans make sense in many ways, I feel:

1. Smaller than sedans - easier to handle in city
2. Easier to park
3. Lighter, hence better FE
4. Has a boot better than hatchbacks ( compare Brio & Amaze, Swift & Dezire )

In my personal opinion, going for a top end variant is required only if you can't do any adjustments in facility(I'm a bit old school).
I like enjoying automatic climate control, but I'm equally happy to adjust the AC myself and enjoy the savings.

If we consider a proper sedan without some options, we should compare the same with the compact sedan with a similar trim - and even then if the price difference is not significant, forget the compacts and enjoy the big car.
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