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Old 10th November 2013, 14:20   #76
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Default Re: Grand i10 Diesel AT - End of a long wait?

The local Hyundai dealership at my place confirms the launch of Grand i10 Petrol and available in Asta ans Sportz version. Delivery time stated to be 1 to 1.5 months.
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Old 10th November 2013, 22:30   #77
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Default Re: Grand i10 Diesel AT - End of a long wait?

Why this excitement about a diesel variant?

Yes I understand diesel is cheaper than petrol, however a diesel car is usually costlier than the petrol car easily by a lack.

Unless ones per day mileage is high (80+ kms), it would easily take about 4 or more years for one to break even the extra cost paid for the diesel variant.

Same applies to LPG as well, whether company fitted or retro fitted, however the difference for company fitted is about 40 to 50 k and retrofitted is around 20 to 30 k. I drive 40 kms round trip each day and it took me 2 years for a retrofitted LPG on my Santro to break even.

AT will further cost more as compared to manual version perhaps another 50+ k or more, though AT is totally worth it (both my Santro & Scorpio are ATs).

What am I missing?

Last edited by ajitkumarlb : 10th November 2013 at 22:33. Reason: corrected typo
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Old 11th November 2013, 00:32   #78
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Default Re: Grand i10 Diesel AT - End of a long wait?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajitkumarlb View Post
What am I missing?
All the math sounds good, but at the end of the day - people get devastated when they get 8 - 9 kmpl from their petrol AT hatch. Psychologically - paying upfront for a diesel engine hurts far less than paying every week for petrol.
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Old 11th November 2013, 07:49   #79
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Default Re: Grand i10 Diesel AT - End of a long wait?

Watched an ACI podcast with Hormazd Sorabjee and he was absolutely sure a Grand i10 Diesel AT wouldn't happen due to the price handicap.

However, he confirmed and they showed an ACI image of a compact sedan based on Grand i10.

So, was this just a storm in the teacup by carwale?
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Old 11th November 2013, 10:16   #80
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Default Re: Grand i10 Diesel AT - End of a long wait?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajitkumarlb View Post
AT will further cost more as compared to manual version perhaps another 50+ k or more, though AT is totally worth it (both my Santro & Scorpio are ATs).

What am I missing?
Look at it from the point of a heavy user (say 15-20,000 km a year) who bought an AT because of comfort and convenience factors. Chances are he is driving a Vento (like I am), City, Verna or perhaps an i10, i20, A-star or Ritz (the common AT choices around/under 10L).

So this person is effectively paying around 8 Rs. a km (80 Rs/litre divided by approx 10 kmpl). This includes all the choices above except the Verna diesel AT (and your Scorpio, perhaps).

If the same person were driving a smallish diesel AT hatch, like the Grand i10, he would be paying around 4 Rs./km (60 Rs/lit div by 15 kmpl). That is a straight reduction in your operating expense by 50%.

Makes perfect sense.
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Old 11th November 2013, 10:55   #81
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Default Re: Grand i10 Diesel AT - End of a long wait?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajitkumarlb View Post
Why this excitement about a diesel variant?

Yes I understand diesel is cheaper than petrol, however a diesel car is usually costlier than the petrol car easily by a lack.

Unless ones per day mileage is high (80+ kms), it would easily take about 4 or more years for one to break even the extra cost paid for the diesel variant.

Same applies to LPG as well, whether company fitted or retro fitted, however the difference for company fitted is about 40 to 50 k and retrofitted is around 20 to 30 k. I drive 40 kms round trip each day and it took me 2 years for a retrofitted LPG on my Santro to break even.

AT will further cost more as compared to manual version perhaps another 50+ k or more, though AT is totally worth it (both my Santro & Scorpio are ATs).

What am I missing?
I don't know how come it took 2 years to break-even after so much of running.

Will put up my case, I drive 50KM round trip daily to my office. My current Santro gives me around 12KMPL in city with AC on. So it turns out a little less than Rs. 7/- per KM (considering Petrol is at Rs. 80/-). Thus, per day I end up with Rs. 350/- of Petrol and Rs. 7700/- per month.

If I were to drive an Diesel, with Rs. 60 per litre, and an average of 17KMPL I am looking at Rs. 3.5 per KM. Thus, my monthly cost will be around Rs. 3850/-.

For the weekends, let's be conservative and say I drive only 300KM in a month on a weekend (typically it would be more, considering I am most certain of doing at least 1 Mumbai trip in a month, if it's a diesel, currently I prefer the bus). So, for this 300KM's, for a petrol I would end up paying close to Rs. 2100/- whereas for a diesel I would pay close to Rs. 1050/-.

To add it all up, the month expenditure would be:
Petrol = 7700 + 2100 = Rs. 9800/-
Diesel = 3850 + 1050 = Rs. 4900/-

Saving's per month = Rs. 4900/-.

Assuming the OTR cost difference between Petrol and Diesel is Rs. 120,000/-.

I should break-even in 25 months, that's approximately in 2 years.

So after 2 years for every KM I drive I am saving Rs. 3.5/- flat!

Yes, there is another aspect to this too, the cost of servicing a Diesel car vis a vis a Petrol car. I do not have an idea about that, but IMO nowadays it's not that different. I may be wrong.

Let me know if the the math is incorrect or something that I might have missed.

Moreover, as Crazy Driver pointed out, psychologically too it feels good, due to less trips to the fuel station and lesser cost to fill that tank up!

Also, I would think, the KM's done in diesel would be more than what the same person would do in a petrol. Thus, reaching the break-even point much earlier. Let me explain, I would think twice before taking my Santro to Mumbai if I am driving alone simply because it just isn't good economics spending Rs. 2100/- + toll for a single person. Whereas, if it's a diesel it would be Rs. 1050/- + toll. This is as good as travelling in a Volvo!
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Old 11th November 2013, 12:30   #82
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Default Re: Grand i10 Diesel AT - End of a long wait?

Quote:
Originally Posted by teemus View Post
I don't know how come it took 2 years to break-even after so much of running.

Will put up my case, I drive 50KM round trip daily to my office. My current Santro gives me around 12KMPL in city with AC on. So it turns out a little less than Rs. 7/- per KM (considering Petrol is at Rs. 80/-). Thus, per day I end up with Rs. 350/- of Petrol and Rs. 7700/- per month.

If I were to drive an Diesel, with Rs. 60 per litre, and an average of 17KMPL I am looking at Rs. 3.5 per KM. Thus, my monthly cost will be around Rs. 3850/-.

For the weekends, let's be conservative and say I drive only 300KM in a month on a weekend (typically it would be more, considering I am most certain of doing at least 1 Mumbai trip in a month, if it's a diesel, currently I prefer the bus). So, for this 300KM's, for a petrol I would end up paying close to Rs. 2100/- whereas for a diesel I would pay close to Rs. 1050/-.

To add it all up, the month expenditure would be:
Petrol = 7700 + 2100 = Rs. 9800/-
Diesel = 3850 + 1050 = Rs. 4900/-

Saving's per month = Rs. 4900/-.

Assuming the OTR cost difference between Petrol and Diesel is Rs. 120,000/-.

I should break-even in 25 months, that's approximately in 2 years.

So after 2 years for every KM I drive I am saving Rs. 3.5/- flat!

Yes, there is another aspect to this too, the cost of servicing a Diesel car vis a vis a Petrol car. I do not have an idea about that, but IMO nowadays it's not that different. I may be wrong.

Let me know if the the math is incorrect or something that I might have missed.

Moreover, as Crazy Driver pointed out, psychologically too it feels good, due to less trips to the fuel station and lesser cost to fill that tank up!

Also, I would think, the KM's done in diesel would be more than what the same person would do in a petrol. Thus, reaching the break-even point much earlier. Let me explain, I would think twice before taking my Santro to Mumbai if I am driving alone simply because it just isn't good economics spending Rs. 2100/- + toll for a single person. Whereas, if it's a diesel it would be Rs. 1050/- + toll. This is as good as travelling in a Volvo!
Actually speaking, add to all that cost (for the diesel), the opportunity cost/interest loss on that extra premium you paid upfront (or the increased EMI interest you pay) & it will further delays the breakeven point.
Also, if the govt. subsidy reduces or disappears, the breakeven point will be not be possible unless you have a very high mileage.

It only makes sense to go for a diesel if you have a substantially high mileage to warrant it.
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Old 11th November 2013, 12:48   #83
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Default Re: Grand i10 Diesel AT - End of a long wait?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anks_at View Post
It only makes sense to go for a diesel if you have a substantially high mileage to warrant it.
I respectfully dispute that its not just about 'substantially high' mileage. Living in Bombay where during peak hours both in the morning & evenings, i get 6kmpl with 100% a/c in heavy traffic in my i10 Petrol AT. Diesel engines being far more fuel efficient, i assume i will get no less than 9kmpl in the worst conditions. So even if i do just 1000kms/month within the city not counting outstation trips, i still think it will be worth it in my opinion.

1000 kms at 6 kmpl (Petrol) = 166.67L x Rs. 78/Litre = Rs. 13,000/month

1000 kms at 6.5 kmpl (Petrol) = Rs. 12,000/month

1000 kms at 7 kmpl (Petrol) = Rs. 11,142/month

but...

1000 kms at 9 kmpl (Diesel) = 111.11L x Rs. 62/Litre = Rs. 6,888/month

1000 kms at 9.5 kmpl (Diesel) = Rs. 6,526/month

1000 kms at 10 kmpl (Diesel) = Rs. 6,200/month

Do the math sir.

P.S.
And i haven't even started on the convenience of an AT. My left knee thanks me everyday.

Last edited by anilkalvani : 11th November 2013 at 13:01. Reason: P.S.
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Old 11th November 2013, 13:00   #84
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Default Re: Grand i10 Diesel AT - End of a long wait?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anilkalvani View Post
I respectfully dispute that its not just about mileage. Living in Bombay where during peak hours both in the morning & evenings, i get 6kmpl with 100% a/c in heavy traffic in my i10 Petrol AT. Diesel engines being far more fuel efficient, i assume i will get no less than 9kmpl in the worst conditions. So even if i do just 1000kms/month within the city not counting outstation trips, i still think it will be worth it in my opinion.

1000 kms at 6 kmpl (Petrol) = 166.67L x Rs. 78/Litre = Rs. 13,000/month

1000 kms at 6.5 kmpl (Petrol) = Rs. 12,000/month

1000 kms at 7 kmpl (Petrol) = Rs. 11,142/month

but...

1000 kms at 9 kmpl (Diesel) = 111.11L x Rs. 62/Litre = Rs. 6,888/month

1000 kms at 9.5 kmpl (Diesel) = Rs. 6,526/month

1000 kms at 10 kmpl (Diesel) = Rs. 6,200/month

Do the math sir.
In your example, it is STILL the mileage (no of kms you would use the car for). Where did I disagree with the maths anyways?

I repeat, factoring in all the costs that the typical person forgets to factor in (higher interest that you pay in higher emi or if you did a downpayment then the interest loss on that extra downpayment + the extra downpayment principal + service costs + possibility of disappearance or atleast reduction in govt subsidy on diesel post elections), it DELAYS the breakeven point. My point is only that it DELAYS the breakeven point more than what people think it to be.
So if you consider it to be at 2 years using a 1000km/month calculation (dont go on my numbers, just there to explain the point), it might actually be at 3 years at 1000km/month or 2 years at 1500km/month
That is all I am saying. Many people get misguided to the "savings" of a diesel incorrectly which may not be true for THEM.
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Old 11th November 2013, 13:48   #85
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Default Re: Grand i10 Diesel AT - End of a long wait?

Lets compare petrol vs diesel i10 AT. The biggest advantage with a diesel AT hatch would be:

1.) Good resale value, imagine one has to sell the AT hatch after 5 years, there would be more buyers lined up to buy a diesel AT & its would resale value would be at least 25% more when compared to the petrol counterparts.

2.) Decent mileage (at least 9kmpl) in the worst driving condition. Assuming that the petrol i10 would give only 6kmpl, that is a lot of savings.


Of course there is substantial difference(1-1.5 lakhs) in OTR prices, but with the current fuel rates the recovery will be much quicker say 2 years.

Even if the fuel subsidies were to give way, buying a diesel AT would be a lot more profitable in the long run owing to the kmpl difference .
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Old 11th November 2013, 15:55   #86
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Default Re: Grand i10 Diesel AT - End of a long wait?

Whether people need a sub-1 million rupee diesel AT or not is entirely up to them to decide, based on their usage and financial considerations.

However, it is a sure sign of a maturing automobile market that a diesel AT is going to be available in this price range. In mature markets, one does not have to shell out big $$$ to buy what they need and want, be it in terms of engines, transmissions, safety features, convenience features etc. In a developed market, one can buy an entry level car or one segment above entry level with a full suite of features and options if one wants. Be it 6+ airbags, ESP, traction control, whatever to heated & ventilated seats, wing mirrors, panoramic sunroofs (suited to their climate, of course) to a full fledged navigation system, voice controls etc. One can even buy fun-to-drive cars with an excess of power and torque (hot hatches), a variety of gearboxes (including automatics) and a whole load of other options in the basic segments. A buyer in a mature market will scoff at the idea of paying big bucks to get useful features, and rightfully so!

Technology is meant for everyone, and not just those who can shell out big $$$, though they may be the first to experience it. This is something Apple Inc. fails to understand, for instance, and hence always ends up with a small niche marketshare.

Only in immature, developing markets can manufacturers get away without providing the necessary features and options in the entry level segments. Because of the gross economic inequalities in such markets (which exists due to the feudal mindset of people and/or the feudal nature of the society), technology is laughably equated with price. It is indeed ridiculous that one has to spend more than a million rupees to buy a diesel AT in India.

Hyundai is set to change all this, thank God! They have always been the pioneers in introducing what the immature Indian market felt as "luxury" or "premium" features in affordable cars, especially hatchbacks.

Consider these pioneering efforts which were done on products costing <= Rs. 1 million:

Affordable CRDi engine - Accent
Diesel pocket rocket - Getz
C segment sedan with diesel AT - Verna (previous gen.)
Hatch with a 4-speed AT - Santro
Automatic hatch with ABS & 2 airbags - i10
Sunroof in a hatchback - i10
Six airbags in a sub-1.5 million rupee car - i20
LED daytime running lamps in a sub-1 million rupee car - i20
Climate control in a hatch - i20
Integrated reverse camera in a hatch - i20
Bluetooth music system with steering mounted controls in a hatch - i20
Integrated AVN system in a hatch - i20
Six-speed manual gearbox in a sub 1-million rupee car - i20
Automatic headlamps & wipers in a hatch - i20
Driver airbag in entry level hatches (<= 800 cc) - Eon
Rear A/C vents in a hatch - Grand i10
Inbuilt music memory in a hatch - Grand i10

I'm sure the list is longer and I missed some. Among the reasons Hyundai is in the position it is in the Indian market today is launching their latest international products meant for the developed markets at the same time (or even before) in India.

Another is the obvious fact that they are the leaders when it comes to introducing what the Indian market believes to be "luxury" or "premium" features and options in affordable cars. No other manufacturer even comes close to HMIL in this aspect. Hyundais generally have standard features that are lacking in cars a segment (or even two) above. They make buyers feel that they have got much more than what they paid for, when compared to the competition.

With such a hard-earned reputation, it is only natural that it's Hyundai who are going to be the first to offer the much needed sub-1 million rupee diesel AT. They are definitely doing their part in speeding up the maturation process of the Indian market and they deserve a pat on the back for that.

After the bouquets for Hyundai from me, it's time for brickbats. I'm very annoyed that they haven't launched the Asta(O) trim level on the Grand i10 petrol AT. This is a huge surprise, considering their pioneering record in providing safety features on hatchbacks. I hope they correct this anomaly immediately, and also launch the Grand i10 diesel auto in Asta(O) trim level right from the word go.
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Old 11th November 2013, 18:59   #87
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Default Re: Grand i10 Diesel AT - End of a long wait?

Nice one RSR.
I would like to add this to the list too.

"Elantra was the first car in its segment to have Anti-lock Braking System (ABS) with Traction Control System (TCS) for excellent stability. Apart from that, it was the first C+ segment car in India that offered airbags for the driver as well as front passenger."
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Old 11th November 2013, 19:07   #88
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Default Re: Grand i10 Diesel AT - End of a long wait?

RSR agree with your points...



I am looking from an individual buyer perspective, if I have to decide between a diesel AT vs a petrol AT of the same car:

If we consider only the running cost, diesel will be cheaper to run from day one!

However when the question of break even matters considering the premium we pay for the diesel version, it will matter at least to those who will sit with an excel sheet churning numbers.

I did the math with my usage per day which is 40 km round trip compared with a 80 km & 120 km round trip, I have not taken in to account the weekend runs, outstation runs or the opportunity cost and the extra EMI/interest or the increase in price over the years rather months as the difference continues to narrow down.

Name:  diesel at.png
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I am glad most agree on one thing, i.e. AT convenience , I have had folks argue about it in the past...

Yes, we will eventually profit on the running cost, in the long run depending on our usage.

So, everyone just say buy a diesel car when you say you planning to buy a car, is there more to diesel variant apart from the daily running cost advantage?
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Old 11th November 2013, 19:09   #89
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Default Re: Grand i10 Diesel AT - End of a long wait?

RSR agree with your points...



I am looking from an individual buyer perspective, if I have to decide between a diesel AT vs a petrol AT of the same car:

If we consider only the running cost, diesel will be cheaper to run from day one!

However when the question of break even matters considering the premium we pay for the diesel version, it will matter at least to those who will sit with an excel sheet churning numbers.

I did the math with my usage per day which is 40 km round trip compared with a 80 km & 120 km round trip, I have not taken in to account the weekend runs, outstation runs or the opportunity cost and the extra EMI/interest or the increase in price over the years rather months as the difference continues to narrow down.

Attachment 1164255


I am glad most agree on one thing, i.e. AT convenience , I have had folks argue about it in the past...

Yes, we will eventually profit on the running cost, in the long run depending on our usage.

So, everyone just say buy a diesel car when you say you planning to buy a car, is there more to diesel variant apart from the daily running cost advantage?
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Old 11th November 2013, 20:31   #90
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Default Re: Grand i10 Diesel AT - End of a long wait?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajitkumarlb View Post
Yes, we will eventually profit on the running cost, in the long run depending on our usage.

So, everyone just say buy a diesel car when you say you planning to buy a car, is there more to diesel variant apart from the daily running cost advantage?
Your monetary calculations based on fuel price are spot on. However, you have taken the average fuel efficiency of diesel and petrol to be the same. Diesel engines are inherently more fuel efficient than equivalent petrols. The difference is quite pronounced in the city, more so in the near-gridlocked traffic conditions that have become quite common. If this is also accounted for, the break even period becomes even less.

Yes, there is much more to buying a diesel car instead of a petrol one than the daily running costs and break even period.

One, the difference in price. The difference may not be that much when EMI payments for the two are calculated. In fact, if one is buying a car on EMI, it makes even more sense to go for the diesel, as the immediate monthly fuel savings may account for more than the EMI difference!

Conversely, petrols make a case for themselves when one is paying upfront for the car. One doesn't have to stretch one's budget to get the desired trim level. Even if one can buy a diesel within one's budget, if the running is low enough, a petrol makes sense as one can invest the hefty difference and earn good interest/returns.

Two, the amount of upfront life-time road tax and insurance premiums (which are calculated on the ex-showroom price) will naturally be more every year for diesel engined cars over their equivalent petrol counterparts.

Three, maintenance costs are bound to be more for diesels, though the gap has narrowed a lot in recent years. Still, if certain components of common-rail diesels (such as turbos and injectors) go kaput, the bills can turn out to be high. Even a battery for a common-rail diesel costs more than that for an equivalent Mpfi petrol due to the higher Ah rating. As small capacity turbocharged direct injection petrols become more common, this difference in maintenance costs may cease to exist.

Four, the resale value of petrols (especially automatics) has plummeted in recent years, while diesels maintain their value well. Exceptions may be there in both cases, but this is the norm in the used car market today. If I'm buying a pre-owned car, it is a no-brainer for me. Almost immaculate, pre-worshipped petrol cars with low usage are available for the price of well used, battered old diesels from a segment (or two segments) below. Unless one is planning to keep a new car for a very long time, the resale value favours diesels.

Five, there may be personal considerations for different individuals (apart from the psychological effect, which is common). For instance, if one's salary includes a fixed monthly component as fuel/transport allowance, it makes more sense for that person to buy a diesel irrespective of his/her usage. This is just one case, there are many more.

In the end, I believe each individual car buyer is the best person to calculate whether he/she needs to buy a diesel over a petrol. From the outside, a person's choice may make no sense for someone else. If put in that person's shoes, one would likely understand why the seemingly strange choice was made.

As they say, to each his own! But it's great that the options are increasing for each and every buyer, irrespective of budget. The more the options, the merrier the consumer is, and the more mature the market becomes!

Last edited by RSR : 11th November 2013 at 20:42.
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