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Old 21st September 2007, 10:39   #1186
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Samu

I hope you've booked your test drive - will your M'lore dealer have one in stock?
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Old 21st September 2007, 11:15   #1187
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I would say that its not true, you will see an improved paintjob nowdays since they have collaborated with FIAT and has helped them learn better techniques from them.

ABS, airbags etc are provided due to goverment regulations for vehicle safety in those countries, otherwise they can't sell there.



Just like any market they have to adapt to the market forces of that particular country their consumer choices, how they like the interiors, what colours etc, like safari sells in only 4x4 there, no 4x2 since people like to buy true SUV's there.

And I am sure every commercial organization adapts its products to the market they sell in.
If we understand the basic fact that "every commercial organization adapts its products to the market they sell in", why then do we crib about Toyota and Honda providing stripped down variants of their products in India. As a commercial organization, they are here to make profit - nothing wrong with that. It is for the rules and regulations in our country to ensure that such manufacturers provide adequate active/passive safety features in their products.

If the typical Indian mentality is "what is the mileage?", then so it be. No wonder we have so many Honda Cities zipping around us on roads without airbags - something Honda can not even dream of in other markets (forget US/Europe, even in SE Asia these are mandatory!)

And if we are going gaga over SX4 (I too am extremely delighted at this VFM model and was planning to buy one till I realised issues with 3 fair sized people in the rear seat), why do we forget it was MUL who had been taking us for a jolly good ride since last quarter of a century now without providing adequate safety features in their products? (I own a Wagon-R too).

They came up with ABS and EBD on SX4 and Wagon-R only out of a sheer need to stay one up in the competition since SX4 needed a USP to match the "H" badge while Wagon-R sales were being seriously threatened by the "H" badge product in same segment.

Aww come on mates, it is high time we ended our prejudices and preferences and had a look at the bigger picture! We are being sold what-
a) we want to buy; and
b) what the government wants us to buy

Therefore, rather than getting into arguments about Honda/Toyota/MUL/GM/Ford offerings, try to appreciate what's going on behind the scenes..

Just to substantiate, if govt. can levy a heft excise duty/road taxes/VAT on automobiles, why on earth can it not pass regulations that the consumers get their money's worth? Or are they hand in glove with the automobile industry leaving the consumers shortchanged?

Also, many of us would have read in some thread on this forum about ARAI's inability to test a Honda (if I remember correctly) product's safety features because of lack of infra at their end! So much for the "State's" responsibility towards providing safe products to its citizens!

I know I have ruffled quite a few feathers, opened pandora's box of worms, and shaken hornet's nest - but trust me my fellow T-BHPians, we are being served only what the marketeers see that we deserve!

I rest my case.

Regards
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Old 21st September 2007, 11:17   #1188
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If yes, are they using the same quality? Coz I doubt that?

If they are offering the same quality as they offer here, TATA's wouldn't last a second in those competitive markets.
Hello !! They are more or less using the same quality I think. However, as other members have pointed out here, that for every different country there are different stringent laws / rules - TATA will have to abide with them - ABS, AIRBAGS, FogLamps Etc. ( UK Market )

Now coming to your last comment - quality - There is a huge difference in their driving environment and ours - Have you seen the state of roads here in India ? I am sure you have !! Our Safari's here are used by Politicians participating in rallies- going to places where there are no roads - it still survives - I think the quality of our cars are amongst the best - Now I am not talking about Power / BHP / Torque / Interiors etc. I am talking about Plain quality.

Safari is one of the best built cars out there. Another thing is the quality of our Diesel here which is a very debatable issue. That's the reason many times you see Black smoke beching out of Indicas Exhausts. Why - I have seen Fiestas / Vernas with black smoke !!!

Their Diesel is far better and refined ( I hope its the right term ).

So I do not think its completely fair to Blame Tata altogether - Yes, they do have their limitations like havng defects in their cars even now ( after 8 yrs of Indica ). Also certian issues like rattling in Safaris & issues with their Back Door Hinges etc.

But other than that its a good company giving good products at very competetive prices.

Cheers
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Old 21st September 2007, 11:31   #1189
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This is all

but with each and every word you have written, its a lack of political willpower and education/awareness amongst our politicians.

I hope someday we will see one rising above the efforts to "save their kursi" and thinking about reforms on all fronts in India.



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Originally Posted by AlokSriva View Post
If we understand the basic fact that "every commercial organization adapts its products to the market they sell in", why then do we crib about Toyota and Honda providing stripped down variants of their products in India. .......................

.............Also, many of us would have read in some thread on this forum about ARAI's inability to test a Honda (if I remember correctly) product's safety features because of lack of infra at their end! So much for the "State's" responsibility towards providing safe products to its citizens!

I know I have ruffled quite a few feathers, opened pandora's box of worms, and shaken hornet's nest - but trust me my fellow T-BHPians, we are being served only what the marketeers see that we deserve!

I rest my case.

Regards
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Old 21st September 2007, 11:40   #1190
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Just like the case of the honda city what's the point about going in for a tata safari right now,if you know for sure that an all new safari is going to come up within a span of a few months.

Suv makers are nowadays moving away from the macho suv image to more of a softroader like[eg the toyota landcruiser],so maybe the next generation safari may not be the one for people for people who love the buch looks of an suv and they could go in for this intermediate arrangement from tata.Plus it is expected that the present engine may just continue in that as well,so that should be a bonus.

We have all waited for the 2.2L safari but it still does not make sense to go in for an intermediate arrangement and if the new platform is indeed confirmed within a few months then it is really a tricky issue as to whether one should buy the soon to be launched 2.2L safari.
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Old 21st September 2007, 11:42   #1191
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Originally Posted by dadu View Post
This is all

but with each and every word you have written, its a lack of political willpower and education/awareness amongst our politicians.

I hope someday we will see one rising above the efforts to "save their kursi" and thinking about reforms on all fronts in India.
I am happy to see that we are in synch with my thoughts.

About being , yes I know I was, and still am - no one can afford to stay being on-topic the moment you bring up funda of adaptive selling in different geographies to defend a TATA product and forget that the same is being applied on us by the H and T badges - no offence
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Old 21st September 2007, 11:44   #1192
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Originally Posted by rahul_intlad View Post
Suv makers are nowadays moving away from the macho suv image to more of a softroader like[eg the toyota landcruiser]
Surely you cant be serious with that?

Last edited by Steeroid : 21st September 2007 at 11:45.
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Old 21st September 2007, 11:45   #1193
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you said it yourself , if you notice this thread started in June 2006 and safari 2.2 engine talks were reported in late 2005 too.

And this only for an engine change, imagine a new product from scratch.

So getting my point here!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rahul_intlad View Post
We have all waited for the 2.2L safari but it still does not make sense to go in for an intermediate arrangement and if the new platform is indeed confirmed within a few months then it is really a tricky issue as to whether one should buy the soon to be launched 2.2L safari.

Last edited by dadu : 21st September 2007 at 11:46.
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Old 21st September 2007, 11:52   #1194
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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Samu

I hope you've booked your test drive - will your M'lore dealer have one in stock?
I am sure they will soon, but I am not able to reach the guy, probably busy in training/meeting.
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Old 21st September 2007, 12:21   #1195
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Originally Posted by rahul_intlad View Post
Suv makers are nowadays moving away from the macho suv image to more of a softroader
I certainly hope not. While I support equality in other aspects, I'm a male chauvinist when it comes to SUVs.
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Old 21st September 2007, 13:36   #1196
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Originally Posted by vkochar View Post
Now coming to your last comment - quality - There is a huge difference in their driving environment and ours - Have you seen the state of roads here in India ? I am sure you have !! Our Safari's here are used by Politicians participating in rallies- going to places where there are no roads - it still survives - I think the quality of our cars are amongst the best - Now I am not talking about Power / BHP / Torque / Interiors etc. I am talking about Plain quality.
Safari is one of the best built cars out there.
Even a Tavera and Qualis can survive that and they do much better than safari when it comes to rattles. Offcourse the comfort is no way near safari but they can cope up with hell lots of punishment and come out without batting an eyelid.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vkochar View Post
So I do not think its completely fair to Blame Tata altogether - Yes, they do have their limitations like havng defects in their cars even now ( after 8 yrs of Indica ). Also certian issues like rattling in Safaris & issues with their Back Door Hinges etc.
But other than that its a good company giving good products at very competetive prices.
Cheers
Let us not be too greatful to TATA.. lets be objective here. The quality of plastics inside safari is downright horrible at places and there are plenty of them. It just doesnt belong in a car in today's day and age costing more than a million rupees. Even after 10 years of being in production, the door squeaks and rattles have not been taken care off and you say they are doing some sort of a favor by selling us safari.
Car for car, quality, engineering, Innova V is a hell lot better vehicle than Safari VX 4X2 costing almost the same, except for looks.
Now if Toyota frequently accused of overpricing their cars can provide that sort of quality, why cant TATA do it, when they are selling it for almost the same price.
Safari, even after 10 long years, still has light years to go to match toyota's level of fit and finish and through engineering.
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Old 21st September 2007, 13:56   #1197
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extreme_torque,

I fully agree with you.
Today, if I happen to buy Safari or any Tata car for that matter, it will be purely out of patriotic feeling for Tata.

I want to buy Safari, but for the right reasons (purely based on the merits of the vehicle) and from this perspective, there is still time...I think.
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Old 21st September 2007, 13:57   #1198
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Ok, let me give you an example to illustrate my point:

I own a Indica V2 2002 model. Within 6 months of purchasing it, the A/C knobs(plastic) on the dashboard alongwith the A/C panel plate(again plastic) started developing cracks.

I went to TASC, they changed it without hiccups. Again down the lane six months, same issue happened again.

I am not saying that the ride quality is inferior or the car breaks down on patchy roads but the build quality is still not upto the mark even after so many years of launch of this product.

AND, I'm sure this is not the kind of build quality which is exported to other countries.

Also, just want to point out, this is not measured under any standard for which kind of plastic material will be used in manufacturing this vehicle. This is not covered under any stringent law/rules of any country. But, still Indians get an inferior build quality. WHY??

How cum Hyundai's and Honda's get better build quality than Tata's. You get a verna for 8-9Lacs and and Safari EX for 9+ lacs. We are not paying any less than what others pay for H brands, then why shud we compromise on quality.

I am a die hard fan of Safari and will book my 2.2 variant 4-5 months down the lane. But is Tata doing justice to its bread and butter ?

I hope this is taken care off in the new variant.
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Old 21st September 2007, 14:13   #1199
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what one has to realise is the sheer VFM that tata vehicles give you.

while the VX is priced on par with an innova V, check teh features in both the cars.

over and above the features of the innova, the safari comes with leather seats, DVD players with screens and reverse parking camera. Plus it has a more powerful engine to boot. I mean, toyota with all their engineering might manage only 100 BHP and 200NM of torque from a new generation 2.5L crdi whereas tata, with its antiquated engine manage 115 bhp and 300 NM respectivel.

and what does tata do when it goes contemporary?

143 bhp and 330 NM of torque from a 2.2L engine!!

lets stop being slavish to phoren brands and learn to recognise VFM.

I am no tata lover and have in fact been at the recieving end of tata's unreliability on one occassion. But still, in the case of the safari, I guess one needs to give credit where it is due.

Peace!
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Old 21st September 2007, 14:17   #1200
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Originally Posted by wizardofid View Post
And you've resisted any temptation to spill this out since 19 June 2006!

And how!!! you would'nt believe it.....i was working in Pune till Jan this year and used to go to TML almost everyday...and suprisingly they give their (ahem) 'technology partners' (thats the new, politically correct term for tier 1 suppliers nowadays) quite a free hand when inside. But then again, I guess confidentiality agreements run real deep...



BTW, to answer someone else's question, the suppliers for the imported and domestic models are the same. For eg, the VNT turbo is manufactured in Pune and the CR FIE is supplied by Delphi TVS and the same goes in all vehicles produced.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by himanshugoswami View Post
I mean, toyota with all their engineering might manage only 100 BHP and 200NM of torque from a new generation 2.5L crdi whereas tata, with its antiquated engine manage 115 bhp and 300 NM respectivel.

and what does tata do when it goes contemporary?

143 bhp and 330 NM of torque from a 2.2L engine!!
That's right too..the most powerful 2.2L CRDI engine in europe today is probably the PSA DW12B, with 173 Ps and 370 N-m of torque..but that uses a twin turbo system...the Tata 2.2L is very contemporary and refined...its just that in Europe you would never have a 2.2 tonne SUV driven by the same engine...


Last edited by Zappo : 21st September 2007 at 14:39. Reason: Posts merged.
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