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Old 21st September 2007, 14:30   #1201
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Originally Posted by himanshugoswami View Post
what one has to realise is the sheer VFM that tata vehicles give you.

while the VX is priced on par with an innova V, check teh features in both the cars.

over and above the features of the innova, the safari comes with leather seats, DVD players with screens and reverse parking camera. Plus it has a more powerful engine to boot.
I mean, toyota with all their engineering might manage only 100 BHP and 200NM of torque from a new generation 2.5L crdi whereas tata, with its antiquated engine manage 115 bhp and 300 NM respectivel.
Innova is a genuine 7 seater, the quality overall and engineering is unmatched and its a toyota and comes at a premium of 20k's over and above Safari VX. Is that bad deal given the peace of mind and the passive safety... not at all, DVD player and Reverse camera not withstanding.
Rather than going by absolute bhp and torque number there is a sea of difference in the way they perform on road. The safari's engine is outclassed in every conceivebale parameter by the Innova. If you still hell bent on number then please calculate power to weight ratio for both and the power and torque spread thorughtout the rev-range.

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Originally Posted by himanshugoswami View Post
lets stop being slavish to phoren brands and learn to recognise VFM.

I am no tata lover and have in fact been at the recieving end of tata's unreliability on one occassion. But still, in the case of the safari, I guess one needs to give credit where it is due.

Peace!
I will be the last person to praise phoren brands just because they are phoren, but give credit where it is due and vice versa. If pointing genuine problems with a product is praising a phoren brand, let be it. The bottomline is TATA has to improve quality and engineering if it wants to be a phoren player. I love safari and would prefer in anyday over Innova and others but that doesnt mean it has no room for improvement, it has to improve, given the competition and also otherwise.
I will buy Safari for the car its projected to be not for DVD player's and reverse parking camera's. Ponder on this: If am not happy with the vehicle, will DVD's and Reverse cam make any difference but they certainly will when I am happy with the car.

Last edited by extreme_torque : 21st September 2007 at 14:39.
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Old 21st September 2007, 14:47   #1202
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Although but talking about plastics, you'll be surprised after you go through this post and view the attachments of what TATA is capable of and is already producing, supplying to GM, Ford, FIAT and many others across the world.














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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Let us not be too greatful to TATA.. lets be objective here. The quality of plastics inside safari is downright horrible at places and there are plenty of them. It just doesnt belong in a car in today's day and age costing more than a million rupees. Even after 10 years of being in production, the door squeaks and rattles have not been taken care off and you say they are doing some sort of a favor by selling us safari.
Car for car, quality, engineering, Innova V is a hell lot better vehicle than Safari VX 4X2 costing almost the same, except for looks.
Now if Toyota frequently accused of overpricing their cars can provide that sort of quality, why cant TATA do it, when they are selling it for almost the same price.
Safari, even after 10 long years, still has light years to go to match toyota's level of fit and finish and through engineering.

Last edited by Samurai : 21st September 2007 at 16:29.
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Old 21st September 2007, 14:50   #1203
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Coming on this are you aware if the 2.2l CRDI fuel assembly and ECU is supplied by DELPHI or BOSCH ???

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Originally Posted by porsche_fan View Post
BTW, to answer someone else's question, the suppliers for the imported and domestic models are the same. For eg, the VNT turbo is manufactured in Pune and the CR FIE is supplied by Delphi TVS and the same goes in all vehicles produced.......
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Old 21st September 2007, 14:54   #1204
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Innova is a genuine 7 seater, the quality overall and engineering is unmatched and its a toyota and comes at a premium of 20k's over and above Safari VX. Is that bad deal given the peace of mind and the passive safety... not at all, DVD player and Reverse camera not withstanding.
Your points on quality, fit and finish are valid and have been acknowledged and agreed before - but fair comparison for the Safari would be the Fortuner and not the Innova. Why arent Toyota bringing it in? Because they cannot match the price of a CRV, forget the Safari.

Compare apples with apples. For the money you pay you get a pretty good piece of machinery with really bad plastics and stuff - but for people who buy the vehicle the comfort, space and ride quality make up for it. And its not just about the looks.

Neither vehicle can replace the other in their respective markets, so why bother comparing?

Last edited by Steeroid : 21st September 2007 at 14:56.
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Old 21st September 2007, 15:42   #1205
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Originally Posted by dadu View Post
Although but talking about plastics, you'll be surprised after you go through this post and view the attachments of what TATA is capable of and is already producing, supplying to GM, Ford, FIAT and many others across the world.
I wonder why all these years they havent been able to improve plastics on their own vehicles or may be they are not bothered. The are the biggest sources of rattle in a TATA car apart from ill fitted fixtures and fittings, an example being the indica rear parcel shelf.

Last edited by Samurai : 21st September 2007 at 16:30.
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Old 21st September 2007, 15:42   #1206
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Every product company matures with age. It is true with all the companies including Toyota and Honda. TATA started the passenger cars only few years back compared to "T" and "H".

With in 10 years period what they have achieved is commendable. Yes agreed there is a lot of scope for improvement. What matters is whether they are improving or not. Compare the Indica 2000 model with Indica 2006 model, we see the difference. I have two indicas of 2001 and 2005 models. There is so much improvement in these cars. Their service quality is improved. Every time after get my vehicle serviced, I receive a call (tata motors) to check about the service quality. This is an improvement which was not there last year.

I have driven Hyundai car in 1992 (which was sold under Mitsubishi's brand) the quality was bad compared to Toyota. Look at Hyundai now!!! They are almost comparable to Toyota.

If engine quality is a problem we will not be seeing so many TATA vehicles on road.
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Old 21st September 2007, 15:54   #1207
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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Your points on quality, fit and finish are valid and have been acknowledged and agreed before - but fair comparison for the Safari would be the Fortuner and not the Innova. Why arent Toyota bringing it in? Because they cannot match the price of a CRV, forget the Safari.

Compare apples with apples. For the money you pay you get a pretty good piece of machinery with really bad plastics and stuff - but for people who buy the vehicle the comfort, space and ride quality make up for it. And its not just about the looks.

Neither vehicle can replace the other in their respective markets, so why bother comparing?
Fully agree with Steeroid. If Toyota brings in Fortuner, it will be nothing less that 17 lacs. If Tata is given 45 lacs plus, they can produce something better than Prado.
In short, we get carried away by foreign things. Foreign shoes, foreign ( what not )...... and do not appreciate Indian stuff. Toyota is selling Innova at the price of Fortuner.... Has anybody seen the paint quality and body work on Innova ?
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Old 21st September 2007, 15:57   #1208
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
an example being the indica rear parcel shelf.
I guess the current model of Indica, Marina Dicor and Indigo has very good quality plastic. It is comparable to any other brand in the market.

I do like the beige Interior of Marina. So I guess it is improving. and we will see a drastic change in the plastic parts in the new model
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Old 21st September 2007, 15:58   #1209
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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Your points on quality, fit and finish are valid and have been acknowledged and agreed before - but fair comparison for the Safari would be the Fortuner and not the Innova. Why arent Toyota bringing it in? Because they cannot match the price of a CRV, forget the Safari.

Compare apples with apples. For the money you pay you get a pretty good piece of machinery with really bad plastics and stuff - but for people who buy the vehicle the comfort, space and ride quality make up for it. And its not just about the looks.

Neither vehicle can replace the other in their respective markets, so why bother comparing?
Steer I was compairing the price and the resulting quality and engineering.
The prices in Thailand for Fortuner and Innova
Fortuner starts at: 1029000
Innova starts at: 1039000
Hardly any difference which is logical because mechanicals underneath dont change much but the "body on top" does.
If manufactured in India like the Innova, I am sure toyota can sell the fortuner for a little premium over Innova, with the same quality and the 3.0 litre engine but alas they wont, a Toyota SUV with a 3.0 litre Diesel engine will in anycase sell like hot cakes even priced at 15 lakhs or more.
If toyota can provide the level of quality at that price, I am sure TATA can too and they must if they want establish themselves as a global player. I am not even asking for toyota esque plastic quality but reasonable will do.
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Old 21st September 2007, 16:06   #1210
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Originally Posted by simply_sunny001 View Post
This thread is hot hot hot since last 3-4 weeks

cant stop myself from following it though i have already a dicor

and never ever seen such excitement for a vehicle aka the one & only loved Safari
Hey does anyone know when it will be relased in Delhi. I am eagerly waiting to buy the same
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Old 21st September 2007, 16:35   #1211
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Forgot to mention a couple of points yesterday :

1.) The mileage of new DICOR 2.2 is 1kmpl higher than 3L. Infact this is the first time when TATA will be giving a gurantee of at least 10.5 in city and 13 on Highway

2.) TATAs invested over 300 crores into development and production facilities of this new engine

Last edited by rajismine : 21st September 2007 at 16:50.
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Old 21st September 2007, 16:40   #1212
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Coming on this are you aware if the 2.2l CRDI fuel assembly and ECU is supplied by DELPHI or BOSCH ???
DELPHI it is for the 2.2 engine...
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Old 21st September 2007, 16:42   #1213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Your points on quality, fit and finish are valid and have been acknowledged and agreed before - but fair comparison for the Safari would be the Fortuner and not the Innova. Why arent Toyota bringing it in? Because they cannot match the price of a CRV, forget the Safari.

Compare apples with apples. For the money you pay you get a pretty good piece of machinery with really bad plastics and stuff - but for people who buy the vehicle the comfort, space and ride quality make up for it. And its not just about the looks.

Neither vehicle can replace the other in their respective markets, so why bother comparing?
Steeroid, I agree with you completely, Fortuner is a vehicle that they planned to introduce about 2 years back and haven't even got close to getting its picture here [may be India would tax that too] Anyway on the lines of what you said, what you get is a home grown SUV for its price SAFARI2.2 is a great buy, for the the part of the plastics and stuff I guess that can be changed with a little, I know of so many people changing the interiors of an Innova or a CRV to suit their tastes!
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Old 21st September 2007, 16:54   #1214
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Originally Posted by porsche_fan View Post
And how!!! you would'nt believe it.....i was working in Pune till Jan this year and used to go to TML almost everyday...and suprisingly they give their (ahem) 'technology partners' (thats the new, politically correct term for tier 1 suppliers nowadays) quite a free hand when inside. But then again, I guess confidentiality agreements run real deep...



BTW, to answer someone else's question, the suppliers for the imported and domestic models are the same. For eg, the VNT turbo is manufactured in Pune and the CR FIE is supplied by Delphi TVS and the same goes in all vehicles produced.......



That's right too..the most powerful 2.2L CRDI engine in europe today is probably the PSA DW12B, with 173 Ps and 370 N-m of torque..but that uses a twin turbo system...the Tata 2.2L is very contemporary and refined...its just that in Europe you would never have a 2.2 tonne SUV driven by the same engine...

All music to my ears, okay would you happen to know what all problems have they shot down in the new 2.2 L that were a pain in 3L ? Did you happen to have a look at the Production Managers checklist[antonym] of the things that need to rectify with the 2.2L? and which have been rectified?
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Old 21st September 2007, 17:15   #1215
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Originally Posted by rajismine View Post
Here it is:

1.) 2.2 L with 140 BHP coming at 4000 rpm
2.) Turbocharger with VGT
3.) LX does not have 2.2 Limited only to EX and VX
4.) Beige interiors in EX with Dark Beige dashboard and light beige roof
5.) VX will come with wooden trim
6.) EX 30,000 more than 3 L with appx. 9.6 to 9.7 Lac on road in Hyderabad
7.) New grill with minor changes similar to upcoming 3L sumo
8.) 3L with be better with no rattles now with new fixes in the door
9.) 3L top speed 143kmph and 2.2L with 160kmph electronically limited
10.) Spare wheel remains the same
11.) roof top A/C remains the same
12.) Altogether newly developed engine not taken from any previous version or engine
13.) 3L has push rod engine but 2.2 has 16V DOHC
14.) Fog amps the same, bumper slightly changed to match front grill
15.) New generation engine and International class with no vibration. WORLD: TATAs are coming

All points confirmed here with my source in Kolkata. plus a few additional ones, some of which really suprise me

1. Ground clearence increases to 205 mm [!!!].
2. Redesigned spare wheel enclosure and cover.
3. Jump seats made wider and more comfortable.
4. Two terrific new body colours.
5. Middle seat getting more cubicles.
6. LX remains untouched and will be discontinued once the New Sumo gets launched with 3 L engine - most probably around or after Diwali.
7. Totally new customer service - buyers get log in and username for online complaint system [???] where by complaints are handled within 24 hours.
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