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Old 2nd November 2013, 11:25   #16
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Default Re: Why are most European cars Unreliable in India

Brand image apart the Europeans have never been known to be very reliable. Otherwise the Yankee muscle car would be just a thought. It was only the high end like the three pointer star, the propeller, which had some reputation. Jags in the US were always considered unreliable. Now the Koreans are also fixing the Europeans and Yanks.

When Japanese cars were all imports into the west, they had to up the ante in quality since any repairs were expensive (Japan had far lower labour costs till at least the late 1970's).
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Old 2nd November 2013, 11:53   #17
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Default Re: Why are most European cars Unreliable in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parm View Post
1. Poor fuel quality affects the motor and crucial parts of the engine.
2. Poor after sales service for PM of the vehicles.
3. Poor technical support in the service centers.
4. Greediness shown by the service center owners to fleece customers.
5. Poor quality of road and infrastructure.
6. Vehicle/Engine technology not compatible with Indian conditions.
7. Vehicle owner's lack of maintenance and awareness about the vehicle.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
Firstly, learned members please correct me wherever I am wrong. What I write below is my -totally untested - hypothesis.
.
I totally agree with these two points but I am still not able to figure out much about this reliability factor.My car is a Fiat Linea 2009 model it covered more than 64K in ruthless Indian roads in past 4 years .Its bullet proof not even a squeaky noice .In this 4 years of car's history the replaced parts are clutch slave cylinder and timing chain under warranty other than that no issues till date .But its not the same with my friend's Punto .He is having issues with gearbox ,steering and suspension . Why so different reliablity levels from same brand .Same scenario with my cousin's VW Vento which is touch wood and my friend VW Polo which is a mess .
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Old 2nd November 2013, 14:25   #18
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Default Re: Why are most European cars Unreliable in India

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Originally Posted by justin.das View Post
I totally agree with these two points but I am still not able to figure out much about this reliability factor.My car is a Fiat Linea 2009 model it covered more than 64K in ruthless Indian roads in past 4 years .Its bullet proof not even a squeaky noice .In this 4 years of car's history the replaced parts are clutch slave cylinder and timing chain under warranty other than that no issues till date .But its not the same with my friend's Punto .He is having issues with gearbox ,steering and suspension . Why so different reliablity levels from same brand .Same scenario with my cousin's VW Vento which is touch wood and my friend VW Polo which is a mess .
Don't forget the cars are manufactured and assembled in India by Indian workers, who go on strike at a drop of a hat and also indulge in sabotage, as showed by workers in Maruti plants.

So shoddy workmanship should also be taken into account for the lack of reliability of the vehicle.

Most of the workers in the factories are from the nearby villages whose agricultural land was acquired for the factories, and these workers get first preference when it comes to hiring of the workers.

I have worked with 12 OEM plants in north India as a supply vendor and have a good experience with the workers on the shop floor level also.

Lack of QC is also a factor in the reliability factor of the vehicle.
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Old 2nd November 2013, 15:33   #19
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EU cars are manufactured / assembled in India in the same conditions (human or environmental) as that of a Japanese or Korean. So if some adverse conditions or behaviours affect European manufactures, it should also affect the others.

It's the adaptability to the market that's important. If the Japs and Koreans can adapt to our environment and providereliable cars, what's stopping these high quality Germans not to look at their processes?

My view is the Europe manufacturers are over confident in their luxury offerings and forget the local sentiments which will impact them on longer run. Think of it, Fortuner and Santa Fe has a good share of that segment, where X1 and Q3 are not close to them.

There is no Japanese contender with a diesel motor and hence Superb, passat are there. If Camry and Accord come out with diesel, just imagine where the market would head.

For me, I will drive an EU car, if someone else pays for maintenance and offers me a relief car whenever there is a challenge with the car. But if I have to pay for maintenance then it will be the reliable Japs.
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Old 2nd November 2013, 15:58   #20
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Default Re: Why are most European cars Unreliable in India

European auto manufacturers are the first to adapt new technology, cars from VAG, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Land rover stable are far more better in terms of gadgets, transmission or the engine technology, they are also known to extract more power out of small engines.

Japanese,Korean and American manufacturers are comparatively late to adapt new technology in their cars, they have less equipment, Old school CVT Transmission mated to large engines with less bhp/cc, for example Toyota Fortuner, innova, Camry, Honda Accord.

Hence there is more to go wrong/fail in European cars.
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Old 2nd November 2013, 16:58   #21
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In my opinion, it all boils down to the following:
- technology - European cars typically bring in more technology, and it is these bits that are first to fail: Look at the 7-speed DSG gearbox. Over time it has been made more reliable no doubt, and it is far superior to most gearboxes on competitors.
A simple way around this is getting a base trim of the german you so desire - i.e. with all the essential features (like the Vento HL M/T, Laura Ambition M/T, etc.)
- Poor servicing and maintenance: Lets be honest, the bulk of Indian consumers don't look after the cars as well, and in general are a penny pinching lot. We as enthusiasts might understand why we way Rs. 5,000 for synthetic engine oil (compared to Rs. 1000 for mineral engine oil), but others may not. We may care about that small noise coming from the bonnet, but others not so much.
Add to this the fact that so many European cars are abused (built tough - can take a beating too - build quality), and very poor service technicians (VWAG primarily), it could be a reason to worry.
- Poor understanding of the car: How many non-enthusiasts run-in the engine? How many wait till their engine is warmed up before redlining it? How many switch off the engine without idling it after a high speed run? How many keep the DSG in neutral at long traffic lights?
Manufacturers need to educate consumers - my sales person did not tell me anything about keeping the DSG in neutral, run-in, etc.
- Environment - A lot more hot, humid, and dustier - worse roads as well.
Indian and Asian cars in general are built to take into account these factors. But Europeans, sadly do not take these factors into account - works in our benefit to a certain extent in the sense we get fancy features, but they need to educate their support staff and consumers as well. Some more pre-launch testing wouldn't hurt either.
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Old 2nd November 2013, 20:44   #22
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Default Re: Why are most European cars Unreliable in India

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Originally Posted by harishpr View Post
Good thread eq24. I'm in same dilemma since my heart is set out to buy Skoda yeti, but mind isn't sold yet.

For me, the car should simply do its job. As a owner, I will take care of the vehicle well, but not at the cost of my weekend.. I prefer to spend the same amount of time a suzuki or hyundai takes on a European car, but nothing more. If the car care takes more time than my kids or wife, it's a problem :-)

I'm not sure whether to plonk the money on yeti, or go for Japanese models. I'm in market looking for compact suv with great quality interiors, engine and power;and I hardly have a choice.


I'm still pondering whether to take the expensive-risk, or settle for elantra/Corolla???
Good point Harish and similar conundrum to mine. Don't go for the current Yeti and yes before Shankar condemns me to the Gallows for saying it, I simply say wait for the new one to come out, which is any day now.

I too concur, I do not want to be worried about reliability and Yes I love the fancy toys but if that means that I will stay my week ends getting my car fixed, then that is a trade off I do not want.

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European auto manufacturers are the first to adapt new technology, cars from VAG, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Land rover stable are far more better in terms of gadgets, transmission or the engine technology, they are also known to extract more power out of small engines.

Japanese,Korean and American manufacturers are comparatively late to adapt new technology in their cars, they have less equipment, Old school CVT Transmission mated to large engines with less bhp/cc, for example Toyota Fortuner, innova, Camry, Honda Accord.

Hence there is more to go wrong/fail in European cars.
Good point Barron, but see the thing is in a country like ours it is a night mare being stranded, it is still bearable if it is in the city but imagine in the country side being stuck. That brings the reliability to a whole new level.

What I really wonder, given the same conditions of workers and factories and to some extent the Dealer network as well, how come the Europeans fare so badly. Do they not realise that in the long run this reliability is going to come and bite them in the behind. The worst thing about this whole Reliability is how the Resale values bleed. You can almost buy a second hand Diesel Vento at the same price as a petrol City. In the Corolla and Laura/Jetta level the difference is even worse. I recently found out that a friend let go of his 2.5 year old DSG Superb for 12 lakh. That is more than 50% down the toilet.

As some one rightly pointed out what happens when in a few years our markets really mature and people realise that a European car for all its niceties is a nightmare to own and the Jap/Korean competition is so much better.
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Old 3rd November 2013, 23:07   #23
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Innova is one of tbe few indian cars which has a turbo and not the intercooler.

May be this is also one of the reason why it performs better at cooler tempratures.
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Old 3rd November 2013, 23:45   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderhermit View Post
Innova is one of tbe few indian cars which has a turbo and not the intercooler.

May be this is also one of the reason why it performs better at cooler tempratures.
IIRC, 2011 onwards Innova has been coming with the intercooler as well, sans a bump in power.

Its a low stress engine by toyota and enjoys a long though noisy life.

My 2009 Innova has done 1.15lac kms & besides the regular servicing, brake pads & tyres, I havent changed a thing.

So, yes its reliable .

My 2010 Fortuner has done just 65k kms and is requiring a second clutch change, however the Innova is still doing great on the original clutch only.

I have had my share of troubles with Euro cars like Astra, Palio 1.2, skoda octavia 1.9 tdi.

By the time I had used my very immaculately maintained Octavia for 80,000kms/5ys, i swore off euro cars owing to poor quality issues and obnoxious pricing of products and services.

For Indian conditions, Japs rule! Period.

And I am a Jap fan boy.

Last edited by car_crazy1400 : 3rd November 2013 at 23:50.
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Old 3rd November 2013, 23:46   #25
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Default Re: Why are most European cars Unreliable in India

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Originally Posted by wanderhermit View Post
Innova is one of tbe few indian cars which has a turbo and not the intercooler.

May be this is also one of the reason why it performs better at cooler tempratures.
Innova's sold in metropolitan cities comes with an intercooler. Where as in other cities its not.
You can identify the intercooler model by the green ' bharath IV' sticker and intercooler metal badge near the front fender.
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Old 4th November 2013, 01:20   #26
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Default Re: Why are most European cars Unreliable in India

The non-intercooled engine in Figo (developed by Citroen) is also reliable & trouble free. Mine has done 70K & still going strong.
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Old 4th November 2013, 01:34   #27
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Default Re: Why are most European cars Unreliable in India

In the context of this thread something very interesting came up in the Autocar show this weekend. They were testing cars for their annual speed run event at a Chennai race track with Narain Karthikeyan and the Mercedes E63 AMG went into safe mode after one round of the track because of the Chennai heat! Talk about being unable to handle Indian conditions.

The Audio R8 and Porsche Carrera 4S were fine though.
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Old 4th November 2013, 09:15   #28
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Default Re: Why are most European cars Unreliable in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderhermit View Post
Innova is one of tbe few indian cars which has a turbo and not the intercooler.
In order to meet BS-IV requirements Toyota decided to up the power with an Intercooler, rather than modfiy or change the engine.
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Old 4th November 2013, 11:44   #29
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Default Re: Why are most European cars Unreliable in India

Nice thread.

I am looking for a replacement for either by City (to be replaced with a SUV) or my WagonR (for another small car). Only modern SUV in my budget range would be the XUV W4 (when launched). I am not sure if Yeti is in the same range but even if it is, it's a no-brainer. A big NO. I can tolerate a boring vehicle but not an unreliable one.

Similarly, If i replace my WagonR, it would be most likely with a Maruti or a Honda product. I am really tempted by the Polo GTI but am scared of VW and their DSG box.

Seems like Europeans don't value reliability as much as technology. Maybe it's more to do with the use and throw culture of the West.
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Old 4th November 2013, 17:24   #30
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Default Re: Why are most European cars Unreliable in India

Just came across this in another thread :
http://blog.sukh.us/2013/10/planning...-in-india.html

This just underscores the point that you buy a German car if and only if, you can afford to write off the car, and move on at any point of time.
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