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Old 20th July 2014, 08:10   #1141
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Default re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Knowing TML and their history i for one am quite sure they have learnt a lesson big time from the ARIA and i strongly believe the ZEST will undercut the competition for the base versions and be on par if not undercut the top end.

And that is precisely why we are not seeing an AMT in top end guise as the key to ZEST will be pricing no matter how good the quality.

The AMT XMA and the top end Manual XT (please correct me if im wrong regarding versions) would be around 7.5 lacs or rather should be around that price point.
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Old 20th July 2014, 11:01   #1142
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Originally Posted by rosaf View Post
Knowing TML and their history i for one am quite sure they have learnt a lesson big time from the ARIA and i strongly believe the ZEST will undercut the competition for the base versions and be on par if not undercut the top end.

And that is precisely why we are not seeing an AMT in top end guise as the key to ZEST will be pricing no matter how good the quality.

The AMT XMA and the top end Manual XT (please correct me if im wrong regarding versions) would be around 7.5 lacs or rather should be around that price point.
Each word from your post makes sense buddy. I too have the same feelings towards this matter, the manual XT diesel, yes, depending on the numbers they are targetting, from 7.3 to 7.5, the manual XM diesel, may be ~6.65 (Dzire VDi is at 6.51 ex-showroom Delhi) and the AMT XMA diesel, at ~7.10 (adding 45k for the AMT).

Somehow, I have a feeling that Tata is really going to price the Zest aggressively, literally.
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Old 20th July 2014, 11:23   #1143
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Default re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

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Originally Posted by damager21 View Post
...One the biggest challenge Tata is facing today is the shockingly high under utilization of its production capacity. They came up with Sanand plant which has a production capacity of 2.5 lakh Nano cars a year. We all know how many Nano's are sold per year.
Definitely true, I've heard this plant is massively subsidised and that every Nano that rolls out, costs the govt exchequer 40,000Rs (sales being ~1000 units/month whereas sales projections were said to be 20,000units/month!!!).

Quote:
Before this plant, they already had a production capacity of 3 lakh units per year for all other cars - Indica, Indigo, Sumo etc. This adds up to a production capacity of a whopping 5.5 lakh cars per year.

Between April'13 to March'14 following were the sales numbers:
Domestic - 138,455
Exports - 49,892
Total - 188,347

This means that last year, the passenger car division of Tata Motors operated at capacity utilization of just 34.25%.
Not just this, in June they've slipped down to Number 6 selling <8000units! whereas Toyota at #5 sold 12,000units!

If not anything, just to absorb the fixed costs they're incurring, TATA will HAVE TO sell at a shock price!

Even earnings from repairs & servicing will be limited for the next 3 years (due to warranties).

Quote:
...Though Zest is a brilliant car, going by these numbers, I don't see Tata Motors taking the risk of charging a premium on Zest. With Zest and Bolt their first goal will be create a demand for at least 25,000 units per month. Given their dealership network, brilliant products in Zest & Bolt along with aggressive pricing, these numbers are very much achievable.

They also have some exciting launch lined up for next year in Kite & Nexon.
Exactly, this is like their 1st step. The next launches would happen ONLY if they manage to get their cash registers ringing with Zest selling. Maybe they've started with Zest because it looks much less like the Vista than the Bolt.
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Old 20th July 2014, 11:48   #1144
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Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
Guys one small query. Below are the Delhi ex-showroom prices (as on date) of the top-end diesel variants of the 3 major competitors of the Zest (taken from their respective company websites).

MARUTI SWIFT DZIRE ZDI 7,32,284/-
HYUNDAI XCENT 1.1 U2 CRDi Manual SX (O) Metallic 7,41,961/-
HONDA Amaze 1.5 VX MT (i-DTEC) Diesel : 7,49,500/-

How much premium are you willing to pay for the Zest top end diesel manual and AMT?
Agree - this is the most important question facing the TML Marketing team as well.
Ideally TML should price is squarely at Amaze / Xcent for variant-wise for making any sort of impact in the sales figures. Personally, for me, I would pay about 30K for the Diesel Manual and 50K max. There are several factors stacked against TML at the market. They have lost their market position from No. 3 to No. 6 now. None of their products are in Top 3 of each segment. Their ASS is inconsistent at best based on the reviews here (personally, I had very good ASS from Pandit in Pune). And perception in public minds..
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Old 20th July 2014, 14:29   #1145
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Default re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Test drove the Petrol Zest with the new Revotron engine. Adding my feedback to that of Naut.
Please note that this is based on a 5 min drive on a relatively smooth section of Bangalore road

Positives:

- The Revtron engine is smooth and the power delivery seems very straight

- There is not much of a kick once you reach higher revs but you don't need a heavy foot when starting from stop even with 4 people on board

- Light steering and easy to maneuver in city traffic. Managed to cut across lanes in heavy traffic very easily and the car responds well (lot easier when compared to my WagonR)

- Music system is loud & clear. Notes are precise and bass seems pretty good

- No engine noise in the cabin. Even when the music system is off, you have to strain to hear the engine even when it is in the 2K RPM range

- Very comfy seats and the pedals seem well spaced out (I wear size 12 footwear and did not have any issues with the pedals)

- gear shift is smooth and has short throws. Gears slot in with a small click (but shift of the Grand i10 feels a lot more refined than this)

- reverse sensor (not camera) available on the top end along with ABS and 2 front Airbags

- cavernous glovebox with ample storage space

Negatives:

- Did shift to Sport mode but did not feel a significant change in power delivery. This might be because of the lower RPMs that I was crawling through

- Biggest concern is the steering feedback. Feels like I am driving a Nano with EPS(have one in the family that I sometimes drive). Also the steering lacks weight (doesn't feel very solid while holding. My WagonR steering feels a lot heavier and solid)

- Not sure how the car will handle at high speeds given the weightless steering and low feedback

- Buttons on the steering do not inspire a lot of confidence. not sure if they will last

- Steering height is adjustable but the flip latch that is used to lock the steering in place is bad plastic and I was scared that it will break when I was locking it in place

- Seat belts are not height adjustable as seats also do not have height adjustment

- My biggest problem was visibility. I am a very well built 6 footer and hence had to slide the seat all the way back to climb into the car. The seating is pretty high and hence my eye was level with the bottom of the visor. Felt like I was driving in 640x480 mode in the Zest (while my WagonR is 1028x768)

Suspension is something that I cannot comment upon as the roads were smooth and did not really test the vehicle. The Zest in Red does not look as good as the Blue
Attached Thumbnails
On the Tata Bolt Hatchback-img_20140720_112639.jpg  

On the Tata Bolt Hatchback-img_20140720_122050.jpg  

On the Tata Bolt Hatchback-img_20140720_122101.jpg  


Last edited by procrj : 20th July 2014 at 14:34.
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Old 20th July 2014, 14:58   #1146
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Default re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

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Originally Posted by Whiplash7 View Post
Well I don't think so. In my opinion i don't think safety should be compromised in the pretext of providing more car per car.

Today the average speed in India is not the same as it was a decade ago, I feel auto manufacturers must start providing features like ABS, airbags as a standard.
So why crib about only Tata? It is not that all manufacturers are providing ABS and airbags on all their base versions. When Maruti sells tin boxes and tin cans, no one complains. Is Toyota selling the Etios and Liva base variants with ABS, Honda on the Brio and Amaze, Hyundai on their models? I don't think so.

I drive an ABS equipped car today, but I have been driving since my teens, without air bags or ABS on any of my cars till date. ABS and airbags are secondary measures of safety. The primary measure is sane driving skills.
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Old 20th July 2014, 17:12   #1147
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Post re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

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Originally Posted by discoverwild View Post
?.......ABS and airbags are secondary measures of safety. The primary measure is sane driving skills.
IMO these type of statements are what TBHP does not need. You say airbags are secondary measure of safety and sane driving skills as primary. Keeping 'my safety' in mind, how would my sane driving skills help me be safe when in a 2 lane highway, I find a Scorpio charging into my lane because its driver took a curve at high speed and didn't know to control the vehicle back into his (oncoming) lane. And I'm just cruising along in my designated lane at 60 kmph.

In this situation, how is the primary measure of safety (sane driving skills) going to help me better than secondary measure of safety (airbags)? I know this is not on-topic but the above statement by member discoverwild needs to be clarified..
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Old 20th July 2014, 18:01   #1148
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Originally Posted by mahesh_sn View Post
Don't know what is stopping them from launching petrol variants with AMT? It is somewhat contrary to what other manufacturers do when they have auto trannies reserved only for petrol variants of models which also have their diesel counterparts. (ex Dzire, Sunny, City).
I think that probably because the diesel engine's a Fiat MJD and the AMT tech provider Magneti Marelli is a subsidiary so that must have been easy integration. The petrol on a the other hand is a Tata developed engine so it's probably going to take a lot more testing and engineering effort before they can introduce it.

But then, wonder why Maruti didn't take that route too. They use the same diesel engine, they could have gone for the AMT option with the diesel for the swift/ritz. Maybe it's in the pipeline??
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Old 20th July 2014, 20:07   #1149
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Originally Posted by discoverwild View Post
So why crib about only Tata? It is not that all manufacturers are providing ABS and airbags on all their base versions. When Maruti sells tin boxes and tin cans, no one complains. Is Toyota selling the Etios and Liva base variants with ABS, Honda on the Brio and Amaze, Hyundai on their models? I don't think so.
OT: Got news for you mate, all Liva diesel versions come with ABS + EBD. Am told all petrol models come with ABS, but EBD is opt.
Also differ on your opinion about sane driving being more important than ABS. I have a personal experience where my driving, I believe was sane (below 50km/hr on a straight road with ample visibility), still the wheels locked up in a situation which demanded me to step on the brakes (carelessness on the part of two bikers). I for one would like to have the option of choosing what I want so that I get the blame if I opt for saving a few bucks over safety OR make it standard on all variants.

We are in the market for a car and Zest is in the cards. Only if Tata price the versions right with the right mix of goodies (safety + convenience)

Last edited by vinjosep : 20th July 2014 at 20:11.
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Old 20th July 2014, 20:20   #1150
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Default re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

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Originally Posted by procrj View Post

- Biggest concern is the steering feedback. Feels like I am driving a Nano with EPS(have one in the family that I sometimes drive). Also the steering lacks weight (doesn't feel very solid while holding. My WagonR steering feels a lot heavier and solid)

- Not sure how the car will handle at high speeds given the weightless steering and low feedback
This is exactly what I felt too! The steering feel wasn't great at all. Hope it weighs up well with speed!
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Old 20th July 2014, 20:32   #1151
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Default re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Superb marketing plan by Tata Motors. Since the launch of EcoSport, we have seen multiple auto manufacturers put up their upcoming car on display at Malls. Tata Motors seems to have taken this idea a step further by including Corporate / Commercial areas in the plan.

With this, not only does Tata Motors reach out to prospective car buyers looking for a family car but also professionals who may want to buy a car for daily commute to office. Also, mall tends to receive higher footfalls on weekends and in the evening on weekdays. This plan will ensure high eye balls and hence buzz for Zest throughout the display period.

Following is the display schedule for Tata Zest. What's unusual again is the plan to display Zest on 11th & 12th August at Tata Motors, Pune plant. Does this in any way suggest that the launch will be on 11th August at Tata Motors plant?
Attached Thumbnails
On the Tata Bolt Hatchback-tata-zest-mall-schedule.png  


Last edited by damager21 : 20th July 2014 at 20:43.
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Old 20th July 2014, 22:02   #1152
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Originally Posted by vinjosep View Post
Also differ on your opinion about sane driving being more important than ABS. I have a personal experience where my driving, I believe was sane (below 50km/hr on a straight road with ample visibility), still the wheels locked up in a situation which demanded me to step on the brakes (carelessness on the part of two bikers). I for one would like to have the option of choosing what I want so that I get the blame if I opt for saving a few bucks over safety OR make it standard on all variants.
Hands down, I completely agree with you. When you drive on public roads you are not the only variable on the road there are lot of other variables that could cause an unfortunate event. I strongly believe that it's high time that every manufacture offer ABS as a standard in their cars.
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Old 20th July 2014, 23:08   #1153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k_ajay View Post
IMO these type of statements are what TBHP does not need. You say airbags are secondary measure of safety and sane driving skills as primary. Keeping 'my safety' in mind, how would my sane driving skills help me be safe when in a 2 lane highway, I find a Scorpio charging into my lane because its driver took a curve at high speed and didn't know to control the vehicle back into his (oncoming) lane. And I'm just cruising along in my designated lane at 60 kmph.

In this situation, how is the primary measure of safety (sane driving skills) going to help me better than secondary measure of safety (airbags)? I know this is not on-topic but the above statement by member discoverwild needs to be clarified..
Dear Ajay,
Are you voluntarily going to end up in an accident just because your car has airbags, or are you going to use your skills to avoid one? My statement pertains to another BHPian's (Whiplash7) comments (post #1110) and need not be read in isolation. The lament about Tata coming up with a base variant without ABS and airbags. I found nothing wrong in what Tata was doing.

People talk about ABS and airbags for safety. How many Indians actually wear seatbelts? I stand by my view and it in no way is irresponsible. The first measure of safety is your driving skill. Airbags are not a license for speeding or getting into an accident. They are life-savers but do not stop you from having an accident in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinjosep View Post
OT: Got news for you mate, all Liva diesel versions come with ABS + EBD. Am told all petrol models come with ABS, but EBD is opt.
Also differ on your opinion about sane driving being more important than ABS. I have a personal experience where my driving, I believe was sane (below 50km/hr on a straight road with ample visibility), still the wheels locked up in a situation which demanded me to step on the brakes (carelessness on the part of two bikers). I for one would like to have the option of choosing what I want so that I get the blame if I opt for saving a few bucks over safety OR make it standard on all variants.

We are in the market for a car and Zest is in the cards. Only if Tata price the versions right with the right mix of goodies (safety + convenience)
Vinjosep, I have news for you too. ABS + EBD on the Liva are not available in the base J model (Petrol), optional on the mid-variants and standard only on the top end. Airbags are not available in the base version and are optional for the mid and top variants. Here's the link for you - http://www.toyotabharat.com/cars/new.../spec_org.aspx

In simple terms,
Base variant - ABS + Airbags - Not available
Base variant - with ABS - At additional cost (which means it is a variant in itself)

The discussion was about the base variant not having ABS. It was never about whether we would be better off with ABS and airbags. We have the mid and top variants for those.
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Old 20th July 2014, 23:48   #1154
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hi friends,
have booked a Honda Amaze iDTEC VXMT, delivery scheduled for mid August. Now, looking at Zest reviews on auto shows, am thinking if I should cancel my booking.

Will the entire booking amount be forfeited ? How does it work usually ?

Or should I continue with my Honda booking? Apologies if this is not the right place for the question.
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Old 20th July 2014, 23:51   #1155
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Post re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Quote:
Originally Posted by discoverwild View Post
Dear Ajay,
Are you voluntarily going to end up in an accident just because your car has airbags, or are you going to use your skills to avoid one? My statement pertains to another BHPian's (Whiplash7) comments (post #1110) and need not be read in isolation. The lament about Tata coming up with a base variant without ABS and airbags. I found nothing wrong in what Tata was doing.

People talk about ABS and airbags for safety. How many Indians actually wear seatbelts? I stand by my view and it in no way is irresponsible. The first measure of safety is your driving skill. Airbags are not a license for speeding or getting into an accident. They are life-savers but do not stop you from having an accident in the first place.
My query wasn't about accidents happening wilfully because abs and airbags exist. You've only skirted my query and responded with one of your own. Are your sane driving skills primarily going to avoid accidents others are going to be responsible for causing and end up potentially saving your life??

I'll still await a proper response to my query. Thanks u til then. And my query has nothing to do wit any Tata lament, which I'm sure you noticed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by damager21 View Post
Following is the display schedule for Tata Zest. What's unusual again is the plan to display Zest on 11th & 12th August at Tata Motors, Pune plant. Does this in any way suggest that the launch will be on 11th August at Tata Motors plant?
Tata need to do a little harder to rid their already prevalent negative image. They still need to put more focus and attention into their work.

26th & 27th July are not Wednesday and Thursday, as mentioned in their schedule [other days & dates are probably wrong too, I just checked for 26 & 27 July] (and no, I'm not nitpicking)..

Last edited by k_ajay : 20th July 2014 at 23:59. Reason: Adding a comment to Damager21's post.
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