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Old 30th July 2014, 12:27   #1276
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Default re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Guys, I've removed a few posts asking when the Team-BHP Review is coming, as they clutter the discussion in this thread.

We've been working hard on making our Tata Zest review as detailed and informative as possible. Just like every other Team-BHP Review.

We were keen to gather even more information after driving the Zest in Goa. As a result, we recently spent some more time with the Zest in city traffic, in order to decisively answer all your questions on the engine, suspension, driving modes and everything else.

You can expect the review some time in the next handful of days.

cya
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Last edited by Rehaan : 30th July 2014 at 12:30.
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Old 30th July 2014, 13:21   #1277
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I was reading a few posts on the Honda Mobilio thread where the discussion is about how and why Honda is setting itself up for a marketing disaster by positioning itself against the Toyota Innova rather than the Suzuki Ertiga. Some strong points made against this positioning adopted by Mobilio vis a vis Innova is Mobilio’s perceived & actual inferiority in the areas of space, build and the quality of parts even as the Mobilio is priced at a premium when compared to the Ertiga which is what apparently informed buyers will compare the Mobilio against. Apparently Honda did this earlier with the Jazz by asking a premium price vis a vis the Hyundai i20.

Thinking about the Tata Zest, I turned this thinking around in my head and was wondering that if Honda can bravely try to do this with a clearly inferior product like the Mobilio (lots of people have reported their Mobilio cancellations owing to unfavorable comparision against the Ertiga itself, let alone the Innova), then why can’t Tata try to position the Zest against the “full sedans”? Based on all the media reviews thus far (except Team BHP’s that will be the most definitive one for sure) they seem to have a very good product with a decent build, handling, interiors, space etc. From my very limited understanding of the automotive space, the specs (power, torque etc) of the Zest seem to match with the likes of a Toyoto Etios that positions itself as “The Real Sedan” with the exception of perhaps only the engine size and boot space (& obviously the overall length) even as cabin space in the back would make the Zest an ideal candidate for a chauffeur driven car.

Am I being naïve or too stupid? Not sure if this is the appropriate place to post such ruminations but thought I will try to get an understanding of what really separates a compact sedan from a full sedan. Apart from overall length, are engine size & boot size that useful for positioning a car as a compact sedan or a full sedan? Wouldn’t the Zest hold its own against the likes of an Etios and perhaps SX4?
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Old 30th July 2014, 14:35   #1278
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Originally Posted by IMeMyself View Post
then why can’t Tata try to position the Zest against the “full sedans”?
You are correct. The Zest can very well hold a candle to the likes of Etios , Amaze etc and come out on top.

An insider, closely connected with the marketing & sales of Zest, chirps that this time around, the mantra of Tata Motors is to let the product do the talking. Or putting it simply "under-promise and over-deliver" to the customer.

TML has apparently deliberately adopted this strategy. Objective is to draw in as many customers, including first timer's, as possible, let them sample and use the product and speak about it.

In India, although automotive publications and various other media play a considerable influencing role in a car purchase decision, almost 65% of all new car sales is still on referrals or word of mouth.
Once people start speaking good about the product and how the product satisfies their "sedan" cravings, TML will have a ready, potential customer base which will consider more of their products for purchase compared to competition.
By that time, hopefully, the other new products from TML will also hit the market to further reinforce the "quality" perception of these new vehicles.

And they are serious.
With more and more JLR engineering inputs flowing in, the synergy between TMETC, (Tata Motors European Technical Centre) and Pune ERC (Engg Research Centre) will only deepen in the coming years.

One thing is fairly certain: the image of TML producing "el-cheapo" vehicles will definitely change.
All new vehicles coming out will have far higher levels of quality, perceived & engineering, than TML products of yore.
Yes, TML products may not be the cheapest anymore, but the company has realised that being cheap only in today's cut-throat automotive world will not ensure sales.

You have to strike the right balance between competitive pricing, reliability, performance & quality and that is their objective.
Ironically, as you have rightly pointed out, some of the other global OEM's, seems to going the other way, cheapening their already "premium" brands with products which do not particularly shine in any specific department.
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Old 30th July 2014, 15:13   #1279
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Default re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

I think the Tatas have to keep it simple.
They have to look at Dzire , Amaze and Xcent and try to garner decent sales number for themselves as compared to these cars.
They desperately need a product who can give consistent monthly numbers.
Even at dzire price point Tata have to battle the following:
1)Typical Indian mentality favoring Maruti.
(i am not using the word "herd" , I consider we Indians as very smart spenders and conservative when it comes to spending on cars- a depreciating asset)
2)Tata's perceived brand value.
3)Reputation of not so good resale value (off late)
4)Bad word of mouth from many(also and mostly from the people who never really owned a TATA/a new generation TATA car)

The Aam junta will test drive , appreciate the features / built/looks etc but when it comes to putting their money they will do it on the Maruti/ Hyundai

So even at Dzire price point i don't foresee any threat to Dzire.
(leave aside the talks of pricing on par with SX4s)
I feel that after the initial hoopla if the Zest settles to 6000-7000 units per month on sales charts it should be more than enough.
(even these numbers are too optimistic IMO and that too possible only at dzire or lower than dzire price point)
I would definitely like to see Amaze being threatened by the ZEST though.
I have driven and sat in an Amaze and whenever i see the TV ad of boosting the space(accelarator tak paaun nahi pahauch raha hai kya), i feel that HONDA is trying to fool the junta by advertising the so called space whereas the fact is that even though there is ample leg room the back seat is too upright and no under thigh support(i am 5.10 and yes i am used to the MANZA back seat recline and under thigh support and i am not talking about just the visible leg room, i am talking about the actual comfort levels).
I wanted to get out of that Amaze back seat within minutes of the drive and had to insist on the driver's seat.(apart from lesser lag nothing worth a mention
The zest definitely is much better in many aspects.I Would definitely want the HONDA to make note of the Indian effort. But for that to happen the junta has to like the and put there money on the ZEST.

However what TATA can really do (and it is in there hands)is give consistent niggle free experience to all Zest/bolt owners and thereby slowly
improving there brand value and image in typical Indian car buyer's mind
(generally... very ill informed on automobile engineering - ( non bhpians)).
This in mid term and long run can support in consistent jacking up of prices.
Easier said than done though.

Disclaimer: above are my personal observation on the Amaze and no offence to Amaze owners, i know, i know, you guys have a complete peace of mind car and other set of advantages which i may have missed.)
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Old 30th July 2014, 18:11   #1280
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Default re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Just saw the zest on display at my work place and am mighty impressed with what i saw. The interiors looks awesome and very 'un' TATA like. The boot space looks huge, 390 liters is what the executive quoted. The seats, though were pretty soft, so not many would like it & the rear seat doesn't have a center arm rest, but spacious for 3 adults to sit comfortably.
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Old 30th July 2014, 20:24   #1281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post

You can expect the review some time in the next handful of days.

cya
R
Eagerly awaited by the entire CLAN if i can ourselves a CLAN! This only means to me that the zest has impressed our reviewers since they went back for more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by arjab View Post
You are correct. The Zest can very well hold a candle to the likes of Etios , Amaze etc and come out on top.

An insider, closely connected with the marketing & sales of Zest, chirps that this time around, the mantra of Tata Motors is to let the product do the talking. Or putting it simply "under-promise and over-deliver" to the customer.

TML has apparently deliberately adopted this strategy. Objective is to draw in as many customers, including first timer's, as possible, let them sample and use the product and speak about it.

And they are serious. With more and more JLR engineering inputs flowing in, the synergy between TMETC, (Tata Motors European Technical Centre) and Pune ERC (Engg Research Centre) will only deepen in the coming years.

One thing is fairly certain: the image of TML producing "el-cheapo" vehicles will definitely change. All new vehicles coming out will have far higher levels of quality, perceived & engineering, than TML products of yore.
I would believe any person who does a test drive of the Zest will buy it. NO way will he buy a Dzire or Amaze or for that matter a Xcent.. THE VFM will simply ensure that no justification will come forward to look at another vehicle. Features to Price will ensure Zest is a Winner all the way!

The TML guy who was with me during the Test Drive indicated that TML is going to keep Dell as the Benchmark for service and support! If this is true then every guy who already owns Tata vehcile will be laughing and the others will line up pretty quick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madhu33 View Post

The Aam junta will test drive , appreciate the features / built/looks etc but when it comes to putting their money they will do it on the Maruti/ Hyundai

I wanted to get out of that Amaze back seat within minutes of the drive and had to insist on the driver's seat.

However what TATA can really do (and it is in there hands)is give consistent niggle free experience to all Zest/bolt owners and thereby slowly
improving there brand value and image in typical Indian car buyer's mind

Disclaimer: above are my personal observation on the Amaze and no offence to Amaze owners, i know, i know, you guys have a complete peace of mind car and other set of advantages which i may have missed.)
I can second that. One drive in the Amaze I knew I was not buying it. It gave me only that inch of a space more than my Indica V2 and i saw no really comfort or benefit over my Indica at that point of time. Hell bells my Indica then was a lot quieter inside than the Amaze!

I believe that Tata has already started the process of providing niggle free cars and I have had absolutely repeat Absolutely NO PROBLEMS with my Manza. Now running at 26K kms

I also believe that once a guy who wants to buy a compact Sedan drives the Zest and has a look at features on offer will be hard pressed not to buy the Zest! I personally believe the Zest will be the winner for TML!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dass View Post
Just saw the zest on display at my work place and am mighty impressed with what i saw. The interiors looks awesome and very 'un' TATA like. The boot space looks huge, 390 liters is what the executive quoted. The seats, though were pretty soft, so not many would like it & the rear seat doesn't have a center arm rest, but spacious for 3 adults to sit comfortably.
Space has always been the hallmark of TATA Cars in its relevant catgeory and the quality of the interiors is a huge plus. The seats are soft and comfortable and also this will benefit long drives. Another point i would like to add even tall guys will not have a problem with space. under thigh support for tall guys is more than adequate!

Cheers!
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Old 31st July 2014, 08:39   #1282
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Default re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Not sure if the pricing is pure speculation from 'The Hindu', but the today's article on Tata Zest has some prices mentioned..see the attached pic.
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Old 31st July 2014, 09:24   #1283
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Originally Posted by mazda4life View Post
Not sure if the pricing is pure speculation from 'The Hindu', but the today's article on Tata Zest has some prices mentioned..see the attached pic.
Price sounds about right... I was told unofficially that the Revotron Top end Zest would be about 7 lakhs OTR in Mumbai. Definitely a more attractive proposition than Zest Diesel pricing.

Since Revotron is Tata's own engine & Diesel is Fiat's, looks like Tata is going to price the petrol Zest very aggressively comparatively.
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Old 31st July 2014, 10:44   #1284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mazda4life View Post
Not sure if the pricing is pure speculation from 'The Hindu', but the today's article on Tata Zest has some prices mentioned..
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsurya View Post
Price sounds about right... I was told unofficially that the Revotron Top end Zest would be about 7 lakhs OTR in Mumbai. Definitely a more attractive proposition than Zest Diesel pricing.

Since Revotron is Tata's own engine & Diesel is Fiat's, looks like Tata is going to price the petrol Zest very aggressively comparatively.
Not to forget there is some RnD involved in the new Revotron's birth. The gearbox also seems to be much better, so good amount of work invested there too. Its a turbocharged engine, it can not be as cheap as a Xeta for sure. Linea 1.4 Fire used to be a lot cheaper than its Multijet counterpart but as TJet was launched, it was just some 50-60k cheaper than the diesel.

Yes, Tata is going to price the Zest aggressively and the petrol can start at as low as 4.6 but diesel base variant can not be more than 1 lakh dearer than this, even as Fiat charges for it. Also, the rumors that base Zest will have the FGT 75 hp multijet support my theory even more. If these rumors hold true, I am expecting the base diesel to be priced at 5.5 L. The mid variant, 1 lakh more, at 6.5 L, so just undercutting Dzire's VDi. Mind that Tata's mid variant will have a much better HK music system, an ABS and better interiors, on top of a better, 90ps engine, making it a must buy against Dzire VDi.
For the AMT mid variant Zest, around 7L and for the manual top variant, 7.4L.
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Old 31st July 2014, 17:36   #1285
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Default re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

The official Tata Motors ZEST site lists the ground clearance for the Diesel AMT model at 10 mm lower than the Petrol (165 vs 175).

Boot volume confirmed at - 390 litres (Air volume)
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Old 1st August 2014, 07:17   #1286
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Originally Posted by Fx14 View Post
The official Tata Motors ZEST site lists the ground clearance for the Diesel AMT model at 10 mm lower than the Petrol (165 vs 175).

Boot volume confirmed at - 390 litres (Air volume)
The diesel engine being heavier than the petrol motor may compromise handling a little bit if a high center of gravity is maintained. This is why diesel variants are somewhat lowered by marginally reducing the ground clearance.
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Old 1st August 2014, 08:06   #1287
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Default re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fx14 View Post
The official Tata Motors ZEST site lists the ground clearance for the Diesel AMT model at 10 mm lower than the Petrol (165 vs 175).

Boot volume confirmed at - 390 litres (Air volume)
Quote:
Originally Posted by aditya79india View Post
The diesel engine being heavier than the petrol motor may compromise handling a little bit if a high center of gravity is maintained. This is why diesel variants are somewhat lowered by marginally reducing the ground clearance.
Curious in such cases, is there any way to increase the ground clearance, atleast temporarily, when doing outstation trips (say remote hilly areas etc)?
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Old 1st August 2014, 09:26   #1288
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Default re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Unlike Indica eV2 and Indigo CS, the petrol and diesel engines on the Zest are completely unrelated. It is quite possible that the diesel engine is dimensionally taller and/or has a bigger oil sump. This might be lowering the diesel version's GC.

Even on Fiat Punto, the diesel version has lower GC.
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Old 1st August 2014, 09:54   #1289
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Curious in such cases, is there any way to increase the ground clearance
Yes there is. Take your car to your local mechanic and ask him to get rubber rings installed in the suspension setup. You should get GC increase equivalent to height of a rubber ring. They install 4 of them. These rings have a life span, say 20k KMs, after which you should again get new rubber rings installed. This process should cost around Rs.1000.
I read aomewhere on tbhp itself that there are metal rings available now a days, you could enquire about them, as they won't wear and last much more.
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Old 1st August 2014, 09:56   #1290
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Default re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fx14 View Post
The official Tata Motors ZEST site lists the ground clearance for the Diesel AMT model at 10 mm lower than the Petrol (165 vs 175).

Boot volume confirmed at - 390 litres (Air volume)
Can you post a link to the source also please? I would have preferred the same GC (175) for all variants. 165 is a bit too less I feel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aditya79india View Post
The diesel engine being heavier than the petrol motor may compromise handling a little bit if a high center of gravity is maintained. This is why diesel variants are somewhat lowered by marginally reducing the ground clearance.
All diesel vehicles usually have a stiffer suspension upfront to handle the extra weight of the engine which also makes up for better handling. Not sure your theory holds well; but Punto's petrol variant has a higher clearance than it's diesel variant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsashishsharma View Post
Yes there is. Take your car to your local mechanic and ask him to get rubber rings installed in the suspension setup. You should get GC increase equivalent to height of a rubber ring. They install 4 of them. These rings have a life span, say 20k KMs, after which you should again get new rubber rings installed...
Never thought of this option. If this is used ONLY for outstation trips, then one set should be enough for the life of the car.

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 1st August 2014 at 09:59. Reason: Adding the last quote.
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