Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 2nd December 2014, 22:22   #1381
Senior - BHPian
 
zenren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: CLT/TVM/HYD
Posts: 2,576
Thanked: 1,723 Times
Default Re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Quote:
Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
The production cost of a Bolt with all of Zest's features would probably be 95% of the Zest's cost, if not more. Would the Indian public be prepared to spend on Bolt 95% of what it would spend on a Zest? Reducing features in Bolt would translate into bigger price gap between the two cars which is good from a product positioning perspective. Having burnt their hands with Vista 90 petrol as well as diesel, Tata is just being realistic in targetting the aam junta rather than the performance minded.
Even at 85% cost, the typical aam aadmi will increase their budget or forfeit features and buy "badi gaadi". Point to note here is that Zest is the cheapest sedan while Bolt is a premium hatchback. Even at the current price point of Vista, there are a lot more good options in hatchback segment than in the CS segment, where everything is a compromise really and it is just a matter of which compromises you are willing to ignore. A few thousands here or there in price is not really going to make a big difference to Bolt's sales unless it has something unique to offer that the main competition cannot offer. If it is the same 75PS tune as in Swift, why should someone buy Bolt instead of the tried and tested Swift? On the other hand, if Bolt has 90PS instead of Swift's 75PS, it would at least make sense on paper as a better value proposition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chncar View Post
I think this is a bit harsh, the Bolt and Zest are stop-gaps anyway according to TML, till they come out with the completely new products. Under the circumstances, budget, and timeline, they have done a heck of a job. The main complaint about Tata was quality and they have almost done a complete 360 turn on that front, with the Bolt and Zest. There is a long way to go, but this is as good a start as one can expect.
They rolled out their first Indica in 1998 which was 16 years ago which is more than the lifetime of a car. If they are still fiddling with stop-gaps and have no proper vision, they will always be doing the same.

Quality concerns about Tata products were of 2 types-
1. fit and finish of a brand new car.
2. long term reliability.

They had already addressed these with the Vista and Manza and have probably improved in the fit and finish department with the new twins. It was the long term reliability that was still a concern for Tata vehicles, primarily based on reports and experience from older Indicas and V2s. There is nothing to say that durability has really improved in Bolt/Zest from what it used to be in Vista/Manza as we are still in initial days. Only time would tell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhard View Post
As for the "stop-gaps", virtually ALL cars in TML's line-up are now stop-gaps. Absolutely none are setting any sales charts on fire except for the moderately successful Zest. So if they are going to launch a car - Bolt - 1 year after it was unveiled in the previous Auto-Expo, thats quite a disappointing stop-gap. They should once look at what all arrived in the showrooms of other auto makers in the same duration.

So no, I don't think the "stop-gap" and "they are getting there or there about now" excuse works any more.
Totally agree. If they can't accelerate to get there, they are never going to get there since the expectation bar is also moving up day by day. Their competitors are constantly innovating and improving- not sitting idle like they did in the last decade with their lineup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chncar View Post
Practically speaking this makes almost no difference. The difference is mainly on paper and to an extent at high speeds on the highway (where the 75 PS engine is no slouch either). On 90% of Indian roads the 90 PS engine has no real advantages, and might actually have more turbo-lag, if the Punto test drives are anything to go by.
Even if doesn't make a considerable difference in real world, they should do every trick up their sleeve to get that one successful pair rolling. Zest is certainly more VFM and would cannibalize the Bolt unless they try to pitch it in as catering to a different segment - a better handling model for the sportier youth. Without the overhang of the boot, Bolt can actually handle better than Zest. That was the initial rumour and it is part of that sales pitch that we saw all those sporty looking orange dashboards according to early reports. In case they are placing a model as a sports variant, they better put it at least on par with their other offerings in terms of performance numbers - not below that.
zenren is offline  
Old 3rd December 2014, 00:52   #1382
BHPian
 
gauravdgr8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: CG/CH
Posts: 477
Thanked: 372 Times
Default Re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhard View Post
The Vista was also pretty good on quality. It isn't / wasn't as bad as people perceived it.
In fact, my version - the Drivetech4 (last before Manza face was launched) has proper premium soft touch dashboard and door trims. No other hatchback has it. Sadly, nobody even in TML showrooms / workshops know about it . It was discontinued in the next refresh (sedan class).
Beg to differ here. My sedan class refresh does have the soft touch dash and door panels, however my D90 does not. It was discontinued 6 months after launch of sedan class. Primarily after discounts kicked in.

Well, anything and everything that Tata does, is sure to be ridiculed and kicked in almost all auto forums. But lets accept the fact that Zest is the best of the lot (DZire/Amaze/Xcent) currently. It does not sell in numbers because its a Tata. Had it been a DZire with an AMT, we would have seen 6 months of waiting.

Wait and watch the build quality of Bolt. Swift runs hollow in front of it. But, the indian mentality is "You Swift, Me Swift"
gauravdgr8 is offline  
Old 3rd December 2014, 10:46   #1383
Senior - BHPian
 
Reinhard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,121
Thanked: 1,193 Times
Default Re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Quote:
Originally Posted by gauravdgr8 View Post
Beg to differ here. My sedan class refresh does have the soft touch dash and door panels, however my D90 does not. It was discontinued 6 months after launch of sedan class. Primarily after discounts kicked in.

Well, anything and everything that Tata does, is sure to be ridiculed and kicked in almost all auto forums. But lets accept the fact that Zest is the best of the lot (DZire/Amaze/Xcent) currently. It does not sell in numbers because its a Tata. Had it been a DZire with an AMT, we would have seen 6 months of waiting.

Wait and watch the build quality of Bolt. Swift runs hollow in front of it. But, the indian mentality is "You Swift, Me Swift"
You are actually elaborating the same point as me. This is the exact reason, I am saying they had to come out with something totally new instead of reusing the Vista - only for the hatchback. The Zest looks fresh & nice. But the Bolt looks like a Vista that went to DC, and was returned midway as the customer didn't pay!

They must come out with a product, that will simply silence the critics once and for all. I agree that all their products have always actually been that capable but it was the older looks & poor marketing that did them in.

They have to come out of the "evolution" of existing product philosophy and design something from scratch - a revolution - on the looks front.
Reinhard is offline  
Old 3rd December 2014, 11:44   #1384
BHPian
 
ant_vas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: bangalore
Posts: 167
Thanked: 174 Times
Default Re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Quote:
Tata should realize that they are almost at the bottom of the interest pile when someone wants to buy a family car. (only above maybe fiat and GM ) and their cars need some USP to pull buyers to the showrooms, and at least generate some interest.
Tata cars are more interesting as family car than fiat and GM? I disagree! especially if its a hatchback we are talking about. The main reason is the perception that Tata car's have: Taxi! Vista is definitely a well built car but a lot of vista's are taxi's now.

Zest is good looking with loads of features and when it was launched it pulled a good number of curious people to the showrooms especially the AMT version. But was tata able to convert that curiosity in to actual sales? i doubt that. In fact i believe the curiosity was high because of the key that was attached in the news paper and who doesn't want to win a free car
ant_vas is offline  
Old 3rd December 2014, 14:05   #1385
Senior - BHPian
 
recshenoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mangalore / Bangalore
Posts: 1,056
Thanked: 91 Times
Default Re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhard View Post
You are actually elaborating the same point as me. This is the exact reason, I am saying they had to come out with something totally new instead of reusing the Vista - only for the hatchback. The Zest looks fresh & nice. But the Bolt looks like a Vista that went to DC, and was returned midway as the customer didn't pay!
Exactly my thoughts when i viewed the zest images posted from media drive. It looks so much like Vista. Some modifications here and there and rest of it looks like Vista. They should have come up with totally new design than sticking to Vista like looks. having said that pricing is going to be key here to compete with B segment hatches. If it is substantially cheaper than competition, I am sure there will be takers for Zest.
recshenoy is offline  
Old 3rd December 2014, 14:21   #1386
BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: KA-09
Posts: 347
Thanked: 352 Times
Default Re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

The OD preview on Bolt is very sugary! The product might be good but the lengths to which the mag has gone to convince the reader that it's an all new offering and is derived out of "Zest" is really annoying. When it is in the public domain that Bolt and Zest are based on Vista, whom are they trying to cheat!!! A big thums down
octane_100 is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 3rd December 2014, 14:24   #1387
Senior - BHPian
 
Reinhard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,121
Thanked: 1,193 Times
Default Re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Quote:
Originally Posted by octane_100 View Post
The OD preview on Bolt is very sugary! The product might be good but the lengths to which the mag has gone to convince the reader that it's an all new offering and is derived out of "Zest" is really annoying. When it is in the public domain that Bolt and Zest are based on Vista, whom are they trying to cheat!!! A big thums down
Then you should watch the interviews of TML executives / engineers on YouTube. Even their little kids at home will be laughing at the attempts to stress on "the Bolt was born after Zest". In fact they say it so many times, that even the uninformed will search on the internet and eventually find out its the Vista.
Reinhard is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 3rd December 2014, 14:33   #1388
BHPian
 
tushky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Pune/ Thermopolis
Posts: 937
Thanked: 588 Times
Default Re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

I dont understand why everyone is critisising bolt just because it is based on vista design. It resembles vista but if most of the body panels are all new and fresh in the looks. Obviously every manufacurer has its own design language and bolt is a revolution of vista. So it should carry some lines from vista. You guys need to see bolt in person. It looks stunning. Why dont you guys say anything about maruti swift when new swift almost look like a older swift. Why no words about all new polo which has older generation headlamps on indian version?
tushky is offline  
Old 3rd December 2014, 14:41   #1389
BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: KA-09
Posts: 347
Thanked: 352 Times
Default Re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Quote:
Originally Posted by tushky View Post
I dont understand why everyone is critisising bolt just because it is based on vista design. It resembles vista but if most of the body panels are all new and fresh in the looks. Obviously every manufacurer has its own design language and bolt is a revolution of vista. So it should carry some lines from vista. You guys need to see bolt in person. It looks stunning. Why dont you guys say anything about maruti swift when new swift almost look like a older swift. Why no words about all new polo which has older generation headlamps on indian version?
Sorry, I for one am not criticising the Bolt or Zest! I have seen Zest in person at the Tata-Fiat Body shop and was quite impressed. All I am and a few others are trying to point out is the falsified communication around the Bolt and Zest that they are "ALL NEW" when they are not.
octane_100 is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 3rd December 2014, 14:48   #1390
Senior - BHPian
 
ajay_satpute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,803
Thanked: 1,349 Times
Default Re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Quote:
Originally Posted by tushky View Post
I dont understand why everyone is critisising bolt just because it is based on vista design. It resembles vista but if most of the body panels are all new and fresh in the looks. Obviously every manufacurer has its own design language and bolt is a revolution of vista. So it should carry some lines from vista. You guys need to see bolt in person. It looks stunning. Why dont you guys say anything about maruti swift when new swift almost look like a older swift. Why no words about all new polo which has older generation headlamps on indian version?
You beat me to this man. I was going to say the same thing about Swift. Since the day it was launched, it has not changed much, barring a few cosmetic changes and detuning of engines to extract more FE. No one cribs on the Swift thread that Maruti is not doing anything and all. None of the hatchbacks, except the ones from Hyundai, have undergone any evolution or revolution since day one. Vista is still selling in good numbers, whatever may be the end customer. If Maruti follows "Why change if its not broken" motto. why not Tata??/

And all this cry over 75 PS and 90 PS is not very practical IMO. A very large proportion of customers buy a car for daily commute, especially a hatchback. Why would they bother about the 15 PS delta and make that a deal-breaker?

Let us wait for the actual release of the car and then comment on what is bad, and how Tata should improve and how they lack marketing skills and the usual rant.
ajay_satpute is offline   (4) Thanks
Old 3rd December 2014, 14:58   #1391
Senior - BHPian
 
Reinhard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,121
Thanked: 1,193 Times
Default Re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay_satpute View Post
Vista is still selling in good numbers, whatever may be the end customer. If Maruti follows "Why change if its not broken" motto. why not Tata??/
Given the sales figures in comparison to other auto-makers, I believe plenty is broken.

I haven't seen more than 3 Vista TECHs on the road in Pune since launch. Infact - hardly any of my friends know that the Vista now has a Manza dashboard. They simply cancel it out saying "arey woh center wala speedometer bakwas hai!" Only the yellow plates are doing business. If any end customer will do - then isn't this the same philosophy with which TML has worked all these decades? We don't care if a lot of Swifts are selling. We know that a new MNC is setting up office in Pune & we surely will get an order for few hundred Indicas & Vistas to ferry the employees.

I agree that it is the mistake of customers to label a car as a taxi and assume that a taxi is BAD. But then that is how the Indian market is. TML has to find a way out of it right? Or no?

Quote:
And all this cry over 75 PS and 90 PS is not very practical IMO. A very large proportion of customers buy a car for daily commute, especially a hatchback. Why would they bother about the 15 PS delta and make that a deal-breaker?

Let us wait for the actual release of the car and then comment on what is bad, and how Tata should improve and how they lack marketing skills and the usual rant.
Agreed. The 75PS is not too powerful to drive the Vista. Probably the same for the Bolt too. But then, the 90PS MJD doesn't really work wonders. Its the turbo lag which bogs the Vista down & that really remains more or less with the 90PS too. So not a big deal really. The 75PS MJD should do well on the Bolt with a good gearbox.

Last edited by Reinhard : 3rd December 2014 at 15:02.
Reinhard is offline  
Old 3rd December 2014, 15:20   #1392
BHPian
 
gomzi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 783
Thanked: 125 Times
Default Re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

I've been watching the thread unfold and it really beats me how this debate came up.
I agree with ajay_sapute that let the car be launched and then talk. A lot of times, things look different in person than in a picture. I saw a zest yesterday coming from the opposite direction in a small lane. I had hardly looked at the pics, but seeing it in person on-road, I just went wow!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay_satpute View Post
You beat me to this man. I was going to say the same thing about Swift. Since the day it was launched, it has not changed much, barring a few cosmetic changes and detuning of engines to extract more FE. No one cribs on the Swift thread that Maruti is not doing anything and all. None of the hatchbacks, except the ones from Hyundai, have undergone any evolution or revolution since day one. Vista is still selling in good numbers, whatever may be the end customer. If Maruti follows "Why change if its not broken" motto. why not Tata??/
"Why change if its not broken" motto applies mainly to situations/products that are doing very well e.g. the Swift. I'm not sure the Vista sold in consistently high quantities to fall in that category.

Tata has made good cars in the recent past, but sales have suffered due to the brands perception and quality of follow-up service.
gomzi is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 4th December 2014, 09:10   #1393
Senior - BHPian
 
Latheesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bangalore/Kannur
Posts: 2,982
Thanked: 2,663 Times
Default Re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Few more boltdrive pictures. source twitter
Attached Images
     
Latheesh is online now   (5) Thanks
Old 4th December 2014, 11:02   #1394
BHPian
 
turbospooler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Pune
Posts: 185
Thanked: 255 Times
Default Re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Most news sources are saying there is no word out on the Bolt AMT.
I am sure that this is due to the fact that Tata is still trying to meet demands of the Zest AMT which is why they are not committing anything to the media now.
But I think it is a big blunder on their part as the people who will show initial interest only if a novelty is given by Bolt in the hatchback space aka The AMT.
Let us see if Tatas can stay clear of this blunder and create waves.
turbospooler is offline  
Old 4th December 2014, 17:02   #1395
BHPian
 
nkghai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Amchi Mumbai
Posts: 389
Thanked: 655 Times
Default Re: On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Just checked out the gear ratios of the new bolt
1.2 T Petrol, ratio for 4th Gear is .88, 5th Gear is .714
So does that mean even 4th Gear is overdrive in the Bolt petrol model.
Someone can elucidate
nkghai is offline   (1) Thanks
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tata Bolt 1.2L Revotron : Official Review Aditya Official New Car Reviews 533 10th November 2017 16:12
Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming shimoo The Indian Car Scene 77 16th March 2015 21:03
Tata Bolt vs other B2-segment Hatchbacks a4anurag Hatchbacks 13 13th March 2015 22:55


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 04:28.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks