Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 8th November 2013, 14:44   #1
Senior - BHPian
 
safari_lover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bengaluru / Bagdal
Posts: 1,058
Thanked: 377 Times
Thumbs up On the Tata Bolt Hatchback

Mod Note: Team-BHP's Tata Bolt Review has been taken live at this link (Tata Bolt 1.2L Revotron : Official Review). Please continue the discussion over on the review thread.


Finally some good news coming in from Tata Motors. It seems that they have listened to all the rantings and feedback that has come their way about their cars, especially the Vista and Manza. Autocar India has this exclusive report about the new Tata cars scheduled to be unveiled at the AutoExpo next year.

Quote:
Tata Motors will kick off its new product offensive with ‘Project Falcon’, which will spawn a new hatchback and sub-four-metre saloon based on the company’s existing X1 platform that underpins the current Vista and Manza.

However, according to company insiders, the Falcon siblings are essentially all-new vehicles and have "no resemblance to any existing Tata product”. In fact, Tata Motors is likely to drop the Vista and Manza names altogether, to drive home the point that these models represent a fresh innings for the company that has been badly struggling with an ageing and dry product pipeline. It is unlikely, however, that Tata Motors will use ‘Falcon’, which is just the project designation, as the market name for the new cars.

‘Falcon 4’ is the project code for the hatchback, which has been styled in Tata’s European design studio. It will eventually replace the Vista when it goes on sale towards the end of 2014 and will come with both diesel and petrol engine options. The 1.3-litre Fiat Multijet diesel is carried over from the Vista, but a new 1.2-litre turbo-petrol, based on the current Xeta engine, will debut in the Falcons. This engine will be the base motor in an engine family that Tata Motors is developing, which, in the future, will include larger-capacity engines and direct fuel injection.

‘Falcon 5’ is a new sub-four-metre saloon that will replace the current Manza and will be positioned above the existing Indigo eCS when it goes on sale next year. Again, this new saloon will use the Manza’s 89bhp, Fiat-sourced 1.3 diesel, but petrol power is likely to come from a more powerful version of the new 1.2 turbo-petrol, producing in excess of 100bhp.

It’s likely that the Falcon 5 will be launched a couple of months before the hatchback (Falcon 4) and around the festive season next year. Both the Falcon cars will be unveiled at the Auto Expo next February.
source - http://www.autocarindia.com/auto-new...po-363463.aspx

Last edited by GTO : 10th December 2014 at 12:14. Reason: Adding link to Tata Bolt review
safari_lover is offline   (20) Thanks
Old 8th November 2013, 14:56   #2
Senior - BHPian
 
extreme_torque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,546
Thanked: 1,317 Times
Default re: Tata Falcon hatchback, compact saloon to debut at 2014 Auto Expo

Sounds good but I hope its not a case of over promising and under delivering. 1.2 Petrol Turbo sounds fantastic.
extreme_torque is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 8th November 2013, 19:39   #3
BHPian
 
avisidhu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Chandigarh
Posts: 618
Thanked: 456 Times
Default Re: Tata Falcon hatchback, compact saloon to debut at 2014 Auto Expo

Turbo petrol on a newly launched hatchback sounds like fantastic news, but when 'Tata' comes into the equation everything changes.

They have had a decent experience with the Diesel one by now, so if they can come up with a mature product with most gremlins sorted, it might still stand a chance. But petrol would most probably help them generate some headlines only. I for one wouldn't go near it for some years at least

Hatchback segment anyway is way too crowded with manufacturers who have improved tremendously with time. Maybe it's a lost cause already. It's good to see them trying hard though.
avisidhu is online now   (4) Thanks
Old 8th November 2013, 23:49   #4
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Bangalore/Pune
Posts: 1,191
Thanked: 1,556 Times
Default Re: Tata Falcon hatchback, compact saloon to debut at 2014 Auto Expo

Oh yes, this sounds good but it pretty much ends there. Team-BHP's render of the 2014 Vista is what you'll get in the Falcon 4. Falcon 5 is the same design with a boot strapped on. "All-new" is bollocks. Both cars built on the existing platform but with improvements all around is what we'll get.

"all-new" models, in the actual sense of the word will come in 2015.

Turbo petrol is a very interesting development. Some people say that J.Anand is involved in the 1.2 liter turbo petrol motor testing at Coimbatore. The 1.4 liter Fiat T-Jet motor isn't being considered due to excise reasons.

Cheers,

Jay
JayPrashanth is offline   (9) Thanks
Old 9th November 2013, 01:14   #5
RSR
Distinguished - BHPian
 
RSR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Chennai
Posts: 1,621
Thanked: 4,538 Times
Default Re: Tata Falcon hatchback, compact saloon to debut at 2014 Auto Expo

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPrashanth View Post
Oh yes, this sounds good but it pretty much ends there. Team-BHP's render of the 2014 Vista is what you'll get in the Falcon 4. Falcon 5 is the same design with a boot strapped on. "All-new" is bollocks. Both cars built on the existing platform but with improvements all around is what we'll get.

"all-new" models, in the actual sense of the word will come in 2015.
So is the Vista facelift the so-called "Falcon 4"? And the facelifted Manza CS the so-called "Falcon 5"?

Then why not just call them facelifts/refreshes, instead of giving them fancy project names?

Or are they actually speeding up the development of the new vehicles on the modified platforms, after coming to the conclusion that these facelifts are going to take them nowhere, and will not be able to stop the alarming drop in Tata passenger vehicle sales?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPrashanth View Post
Turbo petrol is a very interesting development. Some people say that J.Anand is involved in the 1.2 liter turbo petrol motor testing at Coimbatore.
I think so too. We've seen many spy photos of camouflaged Tata cars undergoing testing in Coimbatore. They must be utilising the services of a Coimbatore based specialist in a big way.

The surprising thing is the mention of the 1.2 turbo petrol being based on the Xeta 1.2 engine. The Xeta 1.2's 475 SI is an ordinary engine to begin with. It's basically derived from their 1.4 NA diesel and has its limitations. It's an old school 8-valve SOHC design, unnecessarily heavy, very noisy at higher rpms, doesn't rev freely and is not fuel efficient either.

Unless they drastically change the nature of the engine, it isn't going to endear itself to petrol car buyers. A turbo would surely boost power and torque numbers, but the drawbacks of the engine will still be there.

The 101 PS 16-valve DOHC 1.4 petrol in the Indigo XL would have been a better choice to convert into a 1.2 turbo petrol. I don't understand why the Xeta's 1.2 was chosen over this more promising donor engine for the project.

Last edited by RSR : 9th November 2013 at 01:18.
RSR is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 9th November 2013, 01:58   #6
Distinguished - BHPian
 
phamilyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 5,601
Thanked: 3,451 Times
Default Re: Tata Falcon hatchback, compact saloon to debut at 2014 Auto Expo

Its ironic - one can't judge what TML is really thinking. They have a fire on deck - the existing models are not doing too well. And the reason is not that they don't have a competent product on paper - it is because their quality and service experience is just not up to scratch!

They are trying to solve the wrong problem!

But yes, I hope they get their quality issues sorted out with the Falcon atleast.
phamilyman is offline   (4) Thanks
Old 9th November 2013, 06:17   #7
Senior - BHPian
 
wilful's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: cochin
Posts: 1,120
Thanked: 862 Times
Default Re: Tata Falcon hatchback, compact saloon to debut at 2014 Auto Expo

I think dropping the Vista & Manza names may be the right way to go. They have had a long innings and new names would mean a fresh start without the baggage of the negative perceptions.
The thing that surprises me is the sub 4 meter replacement for Manza. Does that mean they are only going to have a compact sedan?
wilful is offline  
Old 9th November 2013, 10:07   #8
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N.A
Posts: 6,834
Thanked: 1,503 Times
Default Re: Tata Falcon hatchback, compact saloon to debut at 2014 Auto Expo

Sick of hearing TML "planning" to launch any new product - it remains in the pipeline for years after any announcement and is usually stale by the time the product actually comes out of their factory.

They should stop announcing any intent, and stick to releasing products when they actually have a real saleable vehicle in hand. Not concepts announced with much fanfare in Geneva, not dummies meant to hoodwink the public at the Delhi Auto Shows, not 'disguised' test mules that seem to run around forever - just real vehicles in the showroom.

I'm surprised that they are yet to realise that the credibility of their 'new product' press releases are at an all time low - nobody takes these seriously anymore.
Steeroid is offline   (7) Thanks
Old 9th November 2013, 12:30   #9
Distinguished - BHPian
 
swiftnfurious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Chennai
Posts: 6,448
Thanked: 6,429 Times
Default Re: Tata Falcon hatchback, compact saloon to debut at 2014 Auto Expo

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPrashanth View Post
...Turbo petrol is a very interesting development. Some people say that J.Anand is involved in the 1.2 liter turbo petrol motor testing at Coimbatore...
To be very honest, what would a turbo petrol do on current chassis. They need to build something like a Swift for that FTD factor apart from such engines.

Was checking on who J.Anand is and found out as ..

Quote:
J. Anand is former racing driver from Coimbatore, India who was active during the 1980s and 90's. He currently runs a rally car team and provides automobile R&D services to various automobile manufacturers

J. Anand is the head of tuning and operations of Team MRF for Indian National Rally Championships series from Coimbatore and is also the Managing Director for Jayem Automotives Ltd., an R&D company for Tata Motors Ltd. He is also a well-known race car constructor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Anand

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSR View Post
So is the Vista facelift the so-called "Falcon 4"? And the facelifted Manza CS the so-called "Falcon 5"?

Then why not just call them facelifts/refreshes, instead of giving them fancy project names? ...
That's what they are good at! Hope Karl Slym will make some serious changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Sick of hearing TML "planning" to launch any new product - it remains in the pipeline for years after any announcement and is usually stale by the time the product actually comes out of their factory...
I read atleast 6 months back from a product manager or so from TATA that the product offensive will start in the next 1.5 years. If these are the "products" they plan to launch, then sure it is offensive; for the customers!
swiftnfurious is offline   (4) Thanks
Old 10th November 2013, 19:16   #10
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dombivli
Posts: 2,626
Thanked: 1,191 Times
Default Re: Tata Falcon hatchback, compact saloon to debut at 2014 Auto Expo

The Vista and Manza definitely broke away from the Indica/Indigo designs. I remember when I first looked at the Vista at close range, I was expecting an Indica facelift, but was pleasantly surprised to see the Vista didn't look much like the Indica. It was probably the partnership with Fiat but the design certainly was a pleasant surprise.

Then the Nano. It is another innovation by Tata, designed from scratch and actually serving its purpose quite well.

What Tata have to get right is offer the right product mix right at the time of launch. Specially with the Nano I have noticed they aren't fully equipped when it comes to offering the fully loaded version. Even with the Nano they missed out on essentials such as an integrated music system or a cigarette lighter attachment. It took them two years to get the basic features and ergonomics sorted out. I hope the products this time are more complete at the launch time itself.
honeybee is offline  
Old 10th November 2013, 21:12   #11
BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: india
Posts: 108
Thanked: 132 Times
Default Re: Tata Falcon hatchback, compact saloon to debut at 2014 Auto Expo

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPrashanth View Post
Oh yes, this sounds good but it pretty much ends there. Team-BHP's render of the 2014 Vista is what you'll get in the Falcon 4. Falcon 5 is the same design with a boot strapped on. "All-new" is bollocks. Both cars built on the existing platform but with improvements all around is what we'll get.
Probably. But certain renders floating around Warwick didn't resemble anything like the vista family. More like the VW theme.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPrashanth View Post
"all-new" models, in the actual sense of the word will come in 2015.
Yes. In actual and true sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPrashanth View Post
Turbo petrol is a very interesting development. Some people say that J.Anand is involved in the 1.2 liter turbo petrol motor testing at Coimbatore. The 1.4 liter Fiat T-Jet motor isn't being considered due to excise reasons.
There is a deep ongoing exchange with Jaguar on petrol engines. A lot of work is also happening on electronics, etc. The results of these joint efforts could be unveiled prior to the “all-new” range.
drive_factor is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 10th November 2013, 22:17   #12
BHPian
 
LongDrive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 66
Thanked: 12 Times
Post Re: Tata Falcon hatchback, compact saloon to debut at 2014 Auto Expo

It seems Falcon caught testing in Video and pictures.

It is shown by Carwala.com, http://www.carwale.com/news/11485-ta...auto-expo.html
LongDrive is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 11th November 2013, 05:54   #13
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dombivli
Posts: 2,626
Thanked: 1,191 Times
Default

It does say the petrol engine is 'similar' to the Xeta, and not derived from it. So it would be a fresh design IMO.
honeybee is offline  
Old 11th November 2013, 07:38   #14
Senior - BHPian
 
VeluM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,297
Thanked: 664 Times
Default Re: Tata Falcon hatchback, compact saloon to debut at 2014 Auto Expo

From the profile of the car in the video, it is definitely a facelift of the current Vista. The photographs at Carwale seem to show a smaller gap between the wheel and wheel wells. Could indicate larger wheels, or wishful thinking.

A turbo-petrol will be brilliant just from the in-city driveability and FE perspective, and if the engine is derived from the Xeta engine, it won't hurt that it should be cheaper than something from a vendor.
VeluM is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 11th November 2013, 08:42   #15
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bhubaneswar
Posts: 1,762
Thanked: 532 Times
Default Re: Tata Falcon hatchback, compact saloon to debut at 2014 Auto Expo

A turbo petrol competing against the likes of the Amaze and the Dzire should be interesting, especially as the new govt post 2014 general election is likely to severely reduce diesel subsidy and cap the diesel-petrol price difference at around 5rs.

And with all the talk of engineering synergies between JLR and Tata Motors passenger cars, I hope this new family of petrol engines for Tata Motors has something in common with the new small 1.6/2L petrol engines being developed for small Jags and LRs.

Just to remind people, JLR developed a screaming 500hp 10,000rpm 1.6L twin-turbo engine for their CX75.
julupani is offline   (2) Thanks
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tata Bolt 1.2L Revotron : Official Review Aditya Official New Car Reviews 533 10th November 2017 16:12
Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming shimoo The Indian Car Scene 77 16th March 2015 21:03
Tata Bolt vs other B2-segment Hatchbacks a4anurag Hatchbacks 13 13th March 2015 22:55


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 23:29.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks