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Old 29th November 2013, 12:07   #16
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti plans to make an Innova rival by 2017

This is completely uncharted territory for Maruti. They have made cars that have proven to be mechanically reliable, but those are for the typcial small car buyer with low running and usage, for e.g a Maruti owner might have his car for 10 years and be happy with the reliability but typically they would have run just about 1 lakh during that period.

Whereas the Innova's main USP is its reliability (like the Qualis before) to run for 3-4 lakh km trouble free, and often within 2-3 years to boot. I don't know if the market will really trust Maruti vehicles for this.

Though the Innova is overpriced, the pricing is high for a private buyer. For a fleet/taxi buyer, it is just another business tool and the money spent upfront is recouped through reliability and life-cycle savings.

The other concern with Maruti is build quality. Even though recent models have improved in build quality, they still start rattling by the time they touch 20k. Maruti will have to make a huge step up in quality of materials and workmanship to come close to Toyota.
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Old 29th November 2013, 12:55   #17
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti plans to make an Innova rival by 2017

It would be interesting to see this space. Hopefully MSIL make their homework well before they release a product into the market. I think a few key things that they would need to look for would be sufficient space inside the car (headroom,elbowroom, legroom) make the interiors smart and timeless and increase the GC.

My DDIS has done 137K and still going strong. The car still manages to put a smile on my face with its spirited performance on the highway and is going strong without even a clutch replacement.

Probably the Taxi Segment is complaining because of the frequent service intervals and I would say its expensive when compared to Etios.
PS: Currently own both Etios & Swift
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Old 29th November 2013, 13:28   #18
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti plans to make an Innova rival by 2017

Well, assuming that the rumour does turn out to be true, we can expect Maruti to do their homework extremely well in order to take on a an opponent as formidable as the Innova - we all know that the Xylo tried and failed.

However, I would have thought that by 2017, Maruti would have launched a newer version of the Ertiga (which would have completed 5 years since it's launch in 2012) addressing the drawbacks of the current car - viz. lack of luggage space at the rear with all three seats up; and a bit more shoulder room would also be welcome. In order to make these changes, the platform needs to be both lengthened as well as widened. Maruti has already lengthened the current gen Swift platform on which the Ertriga is based. Now widening is a different matter altogether. So I would assume that the Ertiga II would be based on the next gen Swift which is expected to be both longer and wider than the current gen - thus making the Ertiga II a larger car. A 1.6 MJD or it's equivalent can do duty in the engine bay. A cost effective as well as a logical solution instead of developing a new platform for a stand alone large car, that is unless they are planning a family of cars and M/SUVs on the larger platform.
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Old 29th November 2013, 13:35   #19
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti plans to make an Innova rival by 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
None of the Maruti offerings (which could target taxi segment) are generous in space / comfort criteria. If I have a choice between Logan / Etios / Dzire to be ferried in, I would decline Dzire in the first place.

The advantage of Maruti here is that they do NOT have a taxi badge while the rest suffers from that -ve reputation.
Well, I have have never understood this taxi badge thingy! Innova is a car that sells by the truckloads - almost equally to the taxi segment and the personal segment. Why has taxi image not been a deterrent to Innova or even its grandfather() - The Qualis.

The only products that seem to suffer from this taxi image stigma are the ones that are dated and way beyond their time - Dzire tour/Sumo/Logan etc.
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Old 29th November 2013, 13:37   #20
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti plans to make an Innova rival by 2017

Please help me understand this better.
  • How do they know what market trends in '17?
  • Innova would have completed good 14 years by '17, how can this Maruti car be called Rival when Innova has lead the segment for over a decade made good profit in its product life cycle?
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Old 29th November 2013, 13:46   #21
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti plans to make an Innova rival by 2017

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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
I would NOT think so. If the car is going to be a monocoque, then a 1.6L MJD will do the job just fine. The advantage with Maruti in this case will be FE and lower cost of engine. And a people mover need NOT worry about the "sports" quotient, rather the space and NVH levels inside the cabin. Ofcourse, Innova might still have an edge on hilly areas, but how many fleets drive constantly out in such terrains?
A lot of innovas are used by various tour & travel operators around hilly areas, and considering the fact in India that a major chunk of the tourism happens around hilly areas itself shows why the Ertigas and Mobilios will never be able to compete with Innova. With an 1.6L MJD, Maruti is making an Ertiga competitor and not an Innova competitor. You can also see how the Nissan Evalia with a 1.5L engine is not preferred by the travel industry.

There is no replacement for displacement, and if the displacement comes by turbocharging a smaller engine at higher pressure then it comes at the cost of engine life and maintenance costs. The only competitor for the Innova in the travel and tourism sector is the Chevy Tavera, but then again it is let down by maintenance costs and engines not aging well.

If a manufacturer has to capture the imagination of the fleet operator, then they just cannot compromise on engines. A larger engines also strains less to put out a 100 bhp and thus lasts longer and can carry load well due to higher torque. A 1.6 can never even aspire to carry 7 people with AC up a hill or even overtake slower moving traffic in plains. A Xylo which is quite a powerful vehicle slows down considerably on the highways when it is fully loaded with AC. And it has a 2.2 Ltr engine.
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Old 29th November 2013, 15:45   #22
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti plans to make an Innova rival by 2017

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...With an 1.6L MJD, Maruti is making an Ertiga competitor and not an Innova competitor. You can also see how the Nissan Evalia with a 1.5L engine is not preferred by the travel industry...
If the new car can carry 8 people comfortably, then 1.6L alone can't rule out the car as a rival to Innova. Ertiga as I had posted in the thread, can NOT be comfortable for taking 7/8 people for a trip. And this was probably a reason for cab operators NOT to go for Ertiga.

Again a monocoque will give a better healthy power / torque to weight ratio for the RX against the Innova even if sports a 100 bhp.

How are we reaching a conclusion for Evalia's failure to be the engine size / power? Nissan doesn't have a wide reach for its A$$, it's NOT as cheap to maintain as a Toyota either. Add to it, the unconventional ingress & egress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
...There is no replacement for displacement, and if the displacement comes by turbocharging a smaller engine at higher pressure then it comes at the cost of engine life and maintenance costs. ..
Agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
...If a manufacturer has to capture the imagination of the fleet operator, then they just cannot compromise on engines. A larger engines also strains less to put out a 100 bhp and thus lasts longer and can carry load well due to higher torque...
Imagine, if the RX to cost atleast 2-3 lakhs lesser than the Innova and atleast 50% better FE. This itself will cover a lot of costs for the operator. Even if the engine lasts 1.5L kms, I guess they will have enough returns and can invest into new cars.

Quote:
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...A 1.6 can never even aspire to carry 7 people with AC up a hill or even overtake slower moving traffic in plains. A Xylo which is quite a powerful vehicle slows down considerably on the highways when it is fully loaded with AC. And it has a 2.2 Ltr engine.
Not sure; if the car is in the turbo band, it would never be a slow couch. And as I said, for a people mover, "sportiness" should NEVER be a criteria.

Well, I don't know about Xylo, but it's NOT very convincing for me to read what you have wrote. To be honest, I never read anything like that. I accept I have never driven one either.

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 29th November 2013 at 15:47.
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Old 29th November 2013, 19:26   #23
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti plans to make an Innova rival by 2017

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There is no replacement for displacement, and if the displacement comes by turbocharging a smaller engine at higher pressure then it comes at the cost of engine life and maintenance costs.

Just nitpicking here . Displacement does not change by adding a Turbocharger. Or in other words, Turbocharged or not, the displacement of a small (or big ) engine does not change. Displacement remains the same, just Power changes.

That said, I think it is amusing that Maruti is planning to launch in 2017 a rival for a vehicle that would be effectively close to 15 years old by then. Their Innova beater should have been here much before. They are the biggest car manufacturer in India if they cant take the battle to the opposition then who can?

The truth, I fear is that, despite being their bread and butter market (well almost) India does not figure very high in their priorities. Oh yeah, by the way come 2017, they should think of replacing the age old 1.3 MJD in the Ertiga by 1.6 or something similar and not use it (1.6) on their supposed 'Innova beater'.
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Old 29th November 2013, 22:38   #24
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2017? Innova may be gone by then. Innova is already a stone age car. Too long in the tooth. Seriuosly who buys an Innova, a 2006 vintage, in 2013-14? I mean other than taxi guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dry Ice View Post
Well, I have have never understood this taxi badge thingy! Innova is a car that sells by the truckloads - almost equally to the taxi segment and the personal segment. Why has taxi image not been a deterrent to Innova or even its grandfather() - The Qualis.

The only products that seem to suffer from this taxi image stigma are the ones that are dated and way beyond their time - Dzire tour/Sumo/Logan etc.
Well it is in our family. We call Innova an airport taxi and no one in our family likes this car. We will never buy this car.

Last edited by GTO : 2nd December 2013 at 15:00. Reason: Please do NOT make derogatory personal comments against Innova owners
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Old 29th November 2013, 23:52   #25
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti plans to make an Innova rival by 2017

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Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post

1.3 in the minimal state of tune (75 bhp) makes 190 Nm torque and in 90 bhp mode makes 200 Nm torque. But as you said, I would expect atleast a 2L engine in the proper people mover.
oops..sorry..how cud I forget that? You are right.The multijet makes a minimum of 190 Nm torque in all its avatars. May be the torque figures of Ertiga or SX4 Petrol versions were playing in my mind while typing the post.. just kidding.. The point that I was trying to emphasize was that Maruti will never boldly venture into the MUV segment with a generous 2 or 2.5 litre Diesel engine in the near future. Because that simply is a big leap ahead for them from the 1.3 mark where they are standing now. I think they will play a more safer game like 1.6 or 1.8 max. But still, I wish that they prove my speculations wrong and bring in a proper 2.5 litre MUV, thereby giving some real competition to the highly overpriced Innova.
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Old 30th November 2013, 09:30   #26
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti plans to make an Innova rival by 2017

Suzuki is a relatively stronger player in Asian markets as compared to Western and so called developed/emerged markets.

Indonesia, Thailand are markets where RX can be a good seller, and this might be a good long term strategy from Suzuki.

The major issue is not the brand image or taxi image, but the product itself. Innova could do really well thanks to a motor which has good low end grunt and the mechanical+robust underpinnings which are reliable/long lasting.

Can Suzuki achieve this ? Innova is a good cruiser till 90 kmph, rides well and has a motor which can climb hills with even a bit of overloading. The advantages of BOF construction are pretty obvious in long lasting nature exhibited.

Suzuki cannot resort to monocoque for such long lasting ( with horrible abuse ) vehicle. However, what Suzuki can achieve is where Innova failed. A good large MPV for Family clearly avoiding a cab/taxi image. Ertiga is more than reasonably successful IMO in this regard as compared to even Dzire/Etios/Logan. Suzuki has to target the audience as a private owner and this is what Suzuki needs to enhance its brand value.

Innova is based on IMV platform which also underpins the Hilux/Fortuner, which again cannot be achieved with ease ( for Suzuki ). However, the Innova rival could use a clue from Toyota and have a crossover, probably a larger Grand Vitara using the same platform as RX. Again, private owners will have to be targeted with RX.

Simply put :
Innova is BOF which is very robust, carries a horrible taxi image and has a noisy engine which somehow manages excellent bottom end torque. Suzuki has to have a modern motor with much better NVH, robust underpinnings and target private owner audience to get some success.

Simply having an Innova rival will not help as demonstrated by ICML Rhino, Tavera, Aria, Xylo.

I expected Mobilio to be on Jazz platform and not Brio. It simply does not fall in competition to Innova.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 30th November 2013 at 09:39.
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Old 30th November 2013, 10:06   #27
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti plans to make an Innova rival by 2017

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Well, I don't know about Xylo, but it's NOT very convincing for me to read what you have wrote. To be honest, I never read anything like that. I accept I have never driven one either.
not intention to nitpick .. but just stating my experience that i can regularly overtake a 'slow-moving' fully-loaded (7-passenger w/AC) Xylo or Tavera in an 1.3 Ltr Esteem/Zen/Versa G-Series petrol engine. But it isn't possible to do the same so easily to an Innova. An Innova too slows down at full load but still has torque left to punch a few gaps in traffic. This is from my experience of moving around in highways in North East & Kerala.

Just imagine a Toyota Sienna or a Nissan Quest on a 1.6Ltr engine. I mean, what's the point .. Innova will still be the market leader. For public perception to change, the true 'Innova competitor' has to be more powerful than Innova with a 2.5Ltr or 3 Ltr engine. Priced lower than Innova and more reliable and cheaper to maintain. Then it has a good chance of capturing public imagination. Suzuki has all the attributes, it can be cheaper to maintain and more reliable than Innova, and the only issue is their puny engines. Innova will then be in the dust.

Fully agree with you that Ertiga's failure was that it wasn't a proper 7 seater, there was a compromise in space with 7 seats. And one of the reason why there was a compromise on space was because the entire thing had to be tightly built because it was powered by a 1.3Ltr engine and you couldn't have an Innova-Aria sized vehicle running on a 1.3Ltr so they had to create an illusion of space but reality was that there was a cutting of corners. Pun intended.
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Old 30th November 2013, 17:57   #28
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti plans to make an Innova rival by 2017

Funny! We, that is seven of us, 5 adults and 2 kids (not very small by the way - classes 9 & 7, 5'8 & 5'5 respectively) just completed a 2,300 km round trip from Kolkata to Bhutan during the Puja Holidays in a diesel Ertiga. The roof rack was loaded with luggage as we had to carry a lot of warm clothes because Bhutan is cold at this time of the year. Moreover, we also had the heater on most of the time in Bhutan AND the AC compressor was on as well in order to de-humidify the air to prevent the windscreen from misting up. Never, during the entire trip did I feel a lack of power. By the way, have you noticed how the Innova cabbies switch off their AC's as soon as they encounter hilly stretches? Now, about longevity, it's too early to say.
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