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Old 27th January 2014, 09:11   #166
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Default re: Maruti to offer Automated Manual ("EZdrive") in small cars*EDIT: Celerio AMT launched

Source: http://indianautosblog.com/2014/01/m...hip-car-114330

Demo car spotted. Have a Chevy Enjoy look from front.

Can someone clarify: if the car has a "D" mode, that means regular automatic version is available, right? Then how it can be priced well below the usual automatics? If there was only AMT, I can understand. But how come a car equipped with regular automatic mode and manual auto mode be cheaper?
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Last edited by romeomidhun : 27th January 2014 at 09:18.
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Old 27th January 2014, 09:12   #167
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Default re: Maruti to offer Automated Manual ("EZdrive") in small cars*EDIT: Celerio AMT launched

The Feb 6th launch of the Celerio is good news for folks looking for a small 'convenient' car to use in Indian urban conditions. I am quite sure there will be a sizable chunk of buyers lining up to try it out. I hope (and have a strong feeling) that more carmakers will now start offering AT options.
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Old 27th January 2014, 09:27   #168
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Default re: Maruti to offer Automated Manual ("EZdrive") in small cars*EDIT: Celerio AMT launched

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
Unless MSIL does some serious marketing and awareness programme about how this transmission is different, people will still regard it as a conventional automatic, thus leading to not so good sales. Not sure how much awareness it may take to make the product stand out. But definitely some people are curious to know what this is. A person from the dealership told me that they received a lot of enquiries for the product and a few bookings are already made.
I dont think customer cares about how its achieved. If you provide more mileage and better experience with reliability, it shouldn't matter.

Ofcourse they can use technology to demonstrate the difference in implementation and how its newer
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Old 27th January 2014, 10:04   #169
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Default re: Maruti to offer Automated Manual ("EZdrive") in small cars*EDIT: Celerio AMT launched

While a lot of you are hoping that the car is a big success, you are forgetting one thing. If the car is a grand success you will get zero freebies and discounts. You will also have to deal with arrogant dealers telling you to "Take it or leave it". Of course I don't want it to fail and let the resale become pathetic (after all I have booked one and some day I will have to sell it). The best situation for us is if the demand is always slightly below the production. That way people will always be able to buy it "Off the shelf" and people planning to sell can also get a decent resale.
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Old 27th January 2014, 10:39   #170
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Default re: Maruti to offer Automated Manual ("EZdrive") in small cars*EDIT: Celerio AMT launched

Question: Considering the underlying gearbox for the Manual and AMT are the same and the AMT just has the additional mechanism to control clutch engagement and gearshifts, will there be any technical limitation for Maruti to plonk this technology into their diesels and come out with a Swift/Dzire/Ertiga Diesel AMT?
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Old 27th January 2014, 10:59   #171
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Default re: Maruti to offer Automated Manual ("EZdrive") in small cars*EDIT: Celerio AMT launched

Autocar's expected prices don't make sense. There's a difference of 1 lakh between the MT and the AMT. One of the two big reasons for using an AMT instead of a traditional slush-box was to lower cost (the other reason being mileage). Maruti's publicity material said that the AMT will be 'slightly' more than the MT. A 1 lakh difference is what you normally see between a manual and a torque-converter equipped car.

Also, I found that Autocar didn't seem to have too much detail on the real-world functioning of the AMT (in D mode) in their review. How does it work in bumper to bumper traffic, hill starts, parallel parking, etc. Guess we'll have to wait for the team-bhp review for that
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Old 27th January 2014, 13:24   #172
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Default re: Maruti to offer Automated Manual ("EZdrive") in small cars*EDIT: Celerio AMT launched

Quote:
Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
Can someone clarify: if the car has a "D" mode, that means regular automatic version is available, right? Then how it can be priced well below the usual automatics? If there was only AMT, I can understand. But how come a car equipped with regular automatic mode and manual auto mode be cheaper?
It's more about the technology used by the gearbox, rather than the gear shift mechanism and pattern that is visible on the gear lever.

A "regular" or "conventional" automatic gearbox (not a dual-clutch or a CVT) generally means a torque converter. Wikipedia explains quite well (link) how this kind of gearbox works. Torque converter gearboxes (and CVTs too) have inherent torque multiplication capabilities lower down the rev range. This is the reason such automatics are able to perform very well on inclines, gradients and ghats, irrespective of the torque curves of the engines they are mated to. Torque converters also have gear ratios (thus we call them an n-speed automatic gearbox) but CVTs don't. However some CVTs do come with manually selectable "virtual" pre-fixed ratios to somewhat mimic the operation of torque converter units.

Maruti's AMT, on the other hand, is basically a manual gearbox. This is a new gearbox, and not the one used on other k10-engined cars. According to ACI, even this basic gearbox is shared between the manual and the automatic, helping lower costs further.

So, essentially it's the clutch and gear shift mechanism that has been automated by the use of electro-hydraulics when the D mode is in use, instead of a manually controlled pedal and lever. It also offers manual control (or semi-manual/semi-automatic mode, if you prefer) in the M mode.

This manual control of the gearbox in the M mode (without any clutch pedal) was used on two bikes earlier. One was the Hero Honda Street step-through of the '90s and the other is the much more recent TVS Jive motorcycle. Both turned out to be flops, unfortunately, and were withdrawn from the market. The M mode operation is similar to the gear shift mechanism on these two bikes (in principle). You can change the gears manually, but the clutch is automated.

Of course, this AMT is also more advanced than the gearboxes of these two bikes, in that it offers a "fully automatic" D mode. In this mode, not just the clutch operation, but also the gear shifts themselves are controlled through an electro-hydraulic mechanism. As only the electro-hydraulic control mechanism is extra compared to the manual gearbox (as opposed to an entirely different gearbox - be it a torque converter, CVT or a dual clutch unit), costs are kept in control and are lower than the other three kinds of automatics.

As this is a licensed Magneti Marelli technology, I think it is an evolution of the "sele-speed" gearboxes found on some Alfa Romeos. Some believe the "sele-speed" technology also led to the development of dual-clutch automatics. In effect, I think dual-clutch gearboxes (DSGs, DCTs et al) are basically automated manual transmissions with two clutches, one for the odd-numbered gears and the other for even-numbered ones, to complete gearshifts in lightning quick times. So while dual-clutch units sound extremely sophisticated, they are basically dual-clutch automated manual transmissions.

Manual gearboxes, automated manual transmissions and dual-clutch auto gearboxes share many things in common when compared to the other two kinds of gearboxes (torque converters and CVTs).

This is at least how I understood it and I may be incorrect on some aspects. I would welcome it if someone could correct such incorrect assumptions, if any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajeevraj View Post
Question: Considering the underlying gearbox for the Manual and AMT are the same and the AMT just has the additional mechanism to control clutch engagement and gearshifts, will there be any technical limitation for Maruti to plonk this technology into their diesels and come out with a Swift/Dzire/Ertiga Diesel AMT?
Technically speaking, no. There should be no limitation for Maruti to use this technology on their diesel engines. So an AMT diesel Ritz/Swift/Dzire/Ertiga/YL1 is a definite possibility. They are testing the waters with the Celerio AMT and should it prove to be successful and reliable, I'm sure they'll use it on the diesels.

But we must remember that it takes time to execute, calibrate, test the performance and real world reliability of such an implementation. For this AMT, Maruti have mated the mechanism to a new gearbox meant for the k10 petrol engine. They will have to do the same with the diesel engines' gearboxes and it may take some time.

As Magneti Marelli are going to produce this gearbox automation mechanism in India in the near future, we can expect more cars to come equipped with AMTs. The Nano Plus might be the next one, according to the rumours floating around.

Last edited by RSR : 27th January 2014 at 13:54.
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Old 27th January 2014, 15:57   #173
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Default re: Maruti to offer Automated Manual ("EZdrive") in small cars*EDIT: Celerio AMT launched

Just read on TOI/zigwheels, that the car is offered in the usual Lxi, Vxi and Zxi trims. But the semi-automatic is available only on the Lxi and Vxi. Zxi is only available in manual transmissions. I wonder why! May be they did not want it cross the line, on the price front.
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Old 27th January 2014, 15:57   #174
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Default re: Maruti to offer Automated Manual ("EZdrive") in small cars*EDIT: Celerio AMT launched

An article in The Hindu Business Line on the Maruti AMT gearbox.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...cle5614893.ece

It's interesting to see that the clutch and gear shifting are done with hydraulic actuators and not electric motors. The main advantage with this system is that the automatic kit could be retrofitted to existing gearboxes with minimal re-engineering and at a minimal cost.

Last edited by Motard_Blr : 27th January 2014 at 15:59.
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Old 27th January 2014, 16:08   #175
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Default re: Maruti to offer Automated Manual ("EZdrive") in small cars*EDIT: Celerio AMT launched

Guy's, review is already up. Autocar has reviewed the car. Review is here :

http://www.autocarindia.com/auto-rev...ve-370596.aspx

As per them, car is excellent and Maruti already has winner in their hand. Maruti will be having standard 3 variants of it in MT and 2 in in AMT. Good to know that this can be used as a completely auto car in D mode with good FE. User can also use it in M with gears without using clutch. As per Autocar, performance is also acceptable. Eagerly waiting this car to be launched. Price is going to be around 3.9 - 4.9 L. Great going Maruti
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Old 27th January 2014, 20:39   #176
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Default re: Maruti to offer Automated Manual ("EZdrive") in small cars*EDIT: Celerio AMT launched

Quote:
Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
As per Autocar, performance is also acceptable. Eagerly waiting this car to be launched. Price is going to be around 3.9 - 4.9 L. Great going Maruti
Looks like Wagon R might lose its #4 spot after a long time. Sales numbers getting split between Wagon R and Celerio would mean that others like Bolero or Grand i10 finally would have a shot at #4 now.
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Old 27th January 2014, 20:58   #177
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Default re: Maruti to offer Automated Manual ("EZdrive") in small cars*EDIT: Celerio AMT launched

I think Maruti has worked on the K10 motor and eliminated its flat spots to a large extent. Eagerly waiting for the team bhp review on this. Celerio has all the ingredients to become a best seller from Maruti provided its priced right. Also looking forward to find out if it rides and handles better than the AStar. AStar is a grossly underestimated car. Its got one of the best chassis balance its its segment if not the best. Only grouse on the Celerio is the tall boy design. We have enough tall boys. What we want now is a short boy. AMT gearbox has the potential to make those sitting on the fence with respect to autoboxes to make their move. Expect to see more sales of the AMT's in cities.

Last edited by longhorn : 27th January 2014 at 21:00.
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Old 28th January 2014, 11:08   #178
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Default re: Maruti to offer Automated Manual ("EZdrive") in small cars*EDIT: Celerio AMT launched

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Looks like Wagon R might lose its #4 spot after a long time. Sales numbers getting split between Wagon R and Celerio would mean that others like Bolero or Grand i10 finally would have a shot at #4 now.
What you are saying is partly true. But still Wagon R has his own fan following, so you never know. But Celerio will definitely impact the sales of i10, Grand i10, Santro, Figo, Micra, Brio etc for sure. With its attractive FE figures of 23.1 KMPL, i am sure lot many people will get attracted towards it. With diesel prices increasing every month, i am sure many people can consider this over small diesel hatch. Also not to forget the AMT. Many people will surely get attracted towards this affordable AT transmission with Maruti reliability.

We might also see top 5 slots occupied by Maruti with Wagon R and Celerio fighting for number 4 spot !!
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Old 28th January 2014, 14:14   #179
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Default re: Maruti to offer Automated Manual ("EZdrive") in small cars*EDIT: Celerio AMT launched

Quote:
Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
What you are saying is partly true. But still Wagon R has his own fan following, so you never know. But Celerio will definitely impact the sales of i10, Grand i10, Santro, Figo, Micra, Brio etc for sure. With its attractive FE figures of 23.1 KMPL, i am sure lot many people will get attracted towards it. With diesel prices increasing every month, i am sure many people can consider this over small diesel hatch. Also not to forget the AMT. Many people will surely get attracted towards this affordable AT transmission with Maruti reliability.

We might also see top 5 slots occupied by Maruti with Wagon R and Celerio fighting for number 4 spot !!
India is a highly brand conscious market and a lot of customers decide the brand first and then choose the car when it comes to buying decision. Current numbers of Wagon R is so high because the potential A-Star and Estilo customers also decide to opt for Wagon R. If Celerio is successful, that fraction of Wagon R numbers would certainly come under Celerio.

There are a lot of people who buy a Hyundai because they don't want another Maruti, just for a change. These folks are not going to consider Celerio just because it is a Maruti.

My estimate is that around 70% of Celerio numbers would be from Wagon R's pie and the remaining 30% from others. If Celerio might do around 5k per month, that would bring down the Wagon R to the 7-8k range where it would be vulnerable for the #4 spot.

Last edited by zenren : 28th January 2014 at 14:16.
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Old 28th January 2014, 14:34   #180
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Default re: Maruti to offer Automated Manual ("EZdrive") in small cars*EDIT: Celerio AMT launched

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenren View Post
There are a lot of people who buy a Hyundai because they don't want another Maruti, just for a change. These folks are not going to consider Celerio just because it is a Maruti.
Maruti has a trump card here in the form of AMT. Lot many people from big cities want Automatic small cars due to heavy traffic but there are no options at all available in India. There were only options available was A-star and i10. But both has their own problems with poor FE. Now with Celerio, i guess Maruti has got good combo, it has reasonable price (Hoping so), good space, very good FE etc to attract the buyers which others don't have. So i guess Maruti will definitely get benefit here. Lots of ladies will also prefer this for sure at affordable price.

I bet Wagon R will not certainly loose 70% kind of market share to Celerio for sure in near future (1-2 years). Its a very well settled, trusted brand in India and has its own advantages.
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