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Old 6th January 2014, 15:40   #16
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Default re: Maruti to offer AMT (Automated Manual - "EZdrive") in its small cars

while you can shift without having to use a clutch, what will one do in stop go traffic. Use the brake like in the case of a conventional automatic to arrest the motion. This will should end up in the brakes wearing out faster. Not a criticism but just an observation
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Old 6th January 2014, 15:56   #17
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Default re: Maruti to offer AMT (Automated Manual - "EZdrive") in its small cars

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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
Isn't AMT Maruti-speak for DSG? VW's DSG, too, is an automated manual. I'm sure Ford's DCT is same, too. Somebody needs to shed more light on these things.
Not at all. Automated Manual Transmission is basically an automatic with no significant weight gains because it does not need a torque converter unit it is in charge of your clutch and can shift for you if required.

VWs DSG (Direct Shift Gearbox) is just fancy way of calling it a DCT (Dual-Clutch Transmission) it ultimately offers you a seemingly un-interrupted gear change and flow of torque. The effects of which are more drastically appreciated on diesel motors.
VWs DSG box is infamous around the globe for being an impressive technology whose reliability can be questioned. Atleast in our market, only Ford's DCT seems to have cracked the code and that doesn't even feel as good as the DSG boxes.

AMT only makes do with one clutch thus drastically reducing production costs and complexity. Think of it as a far more reliable DSG with better feel to it (owing to the single clutch), that is bought at no premium to regular automatics and is a lot less complex to repair/maintain.

Hope that clears things

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Originally Posted by rajneeesh View Post
while you can shift without having to use a clutch, what will one do in stop go traffic. Use the brake like in the case of a conventional automatic to arrest the motion. This will should end up in the brakes wearing out faster. Not a criticism but just an observation
Using the brakes to prevent the car from moving and not retard its motion, should not really wear them out mate If convenience is being questioned then one can put the box in Park mode also if you notice, a lot of auto boxes that are being offered today, they offer a hill hold feature to further make driving easy for you.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 6th January 2014 at 16:01.
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Old 6th January 2014, 15:57   #18
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Default re: Maruti to offer AMT (Automated Manual - "EZdrive") in its small cars

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Originally Posted by rohanjf View Post
Isn't Dualogic by Magnetti Marelli?
Isn't it the same technology that MSIL is contemplating?
....
It would not make sense for Fiat to launch this technology in India, because of cost. MSIL can get away with it, due to economies of scale.
I suggest Fiat does bring it. Their engine business may go bust soon (if Maruti gets their engines properly done). Fiat can NOT survive by selling cars. So they better have some thing which others can buy & use. This way they recover their investments and others get hold a technology without investing.

End of the day customers are happy too. It's a WIN in all directions.
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Old 6th January 2014, 16:01   #19
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Default re: Maruti to offer AMT (Automated Manual - "EZdrive") in its small cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajneeesh View Post
while you can shift without having to use a clutch, what will one do in stop go traffic. Use the brake like in the case of a conventional automatic to arrest the motion. This will should end up in the brakes wearing out faster. Not a criticism but just an observation
It seems that this kind of a transmission doesn't stall the engine even if you come to a complete stop in any gear. Not sure how it works but you can read about a bike called TVS Jive that had a similar system. I tried to find an online review of the same and found this-
http://www.motorbeam.com/bikes/tvs-j...-drive-review/

Do read the second para under the heading "Looks and Features". According to the review- "it’s impossible to stall the bike, 4th gear at 5kmph, the engines running and the bike is moving without any intervention just like a scooter, they call it, the ‘Auto Clutch’, as an end result, the bike can start off and stop in any gear and can never be stalled."
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Old 6th January 2014, 16:15   #20
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Default re: Maruti to offer AMT (Automated Manual - "EZdrive") in its small cars

Well as interesting as this may sound, An automated-manual transmission may not necessarily be a good idea. This was previoulsy attempted by SAAB too with their Sensonic gearbox. This will need to be really cleverly engineered for it not to be a fail as it was for SAAB.

Same idea, you get the joys of the manual stick shift without the hastles of a clutch which sounds great at first, but parallel parking maneuvers will be an absolute disaster because in such situations you tend to gently lift off the clutch and gently feed in the power to sort of creep backwards and forwards. If there is an automated clutch it will simply engage, and when the cog is selected, disengage that very moment and wont move at all until the accelerator pedal is depressed thus erasing a possibility of creeping very slowly.

The workings of this disasterous gearbox were very well demonstrated by James May in the Top Gear DVD - The Worst Car in the history of the World. Can't find a youtube video on the same, but do check it out if you can.

Regards,
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Old 6th January 2014, 16:22   #21
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Default re: Maruti to offer AMT (Automated Manual - "EZdrive") in its small cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Automated Manual Transmission is basically an automatic with no significant weight gains because it does not need a torque converter unit it is in charge of your clutch and can shift for you if required.
I think you are mixing the AMT with DCT/DSG which is a completely different animal. Your subsequent discussion about DSG 'boxes makes me believe that.

I'm no expert but an AMT is anything but an automatic transmission. In fact it works exactly the same as a manual except that the (single) clutch is not depressed by the driver as a pedal but rather it "uses electronic sensors, pneumatics, processors and actuators to execute gear shifts on the command of the driver or by a computer. This removes the need for a clutch pedal which the driver otherwise needs to depress before making a gear change, since the clutch itself is actuated by electronic equipment which can synchronise the timing and torque required to make quick, smooth gear shifts." (Source: Wiki)
Quote:
AMT only makes do with one clutch thus drastically reducing production costs and complexity. Think of it as a far more reliable DSG with better feel to it (owing to the single clutch), that is bought at no premium to regular automatics and is a lot less complex to repair/maintain.
Hang on- this is far too simplistic an explanation. Also it is incorrect. DSG actually needs to use two physical clutches (one for 2,4,6 the other for 1,3,5, (7), R) and these are operated simultaneously (one engages as the other disengages) making the shifts lightning-quick as opposed to a torque convertor-driven AT.
Someone better versed at the mechanicals can do a better job explaining the nitty-gritty but AMT is certainly not a DSG box with one clutch taken out!

Last edited by noopster : 6th January 2014 at 16:23. Reason: Removed stray quoted text
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Old 6th January 2014, 16:34   #22
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Default re: Maruti to offer AMT (Automated Manual - "EZdrive") in its small cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by n:CorE View Post
Well as interesting as this may sound, An automated-manual transmission may not necessarily be a good idea. This was previoulsy attempted by SAAB too with their Sensonic gearbox. This will need to be really cleverly engineered for it not to be a fail as it was for SAAB.

Same idea, you get the joys of the manual stick shift without the hastles of a clutch which sounds great at first, but parallel parking maneuvers will be an absolute disaster because in such situations you tend to gently lift off the clutch and gently feed in the power to sort of creep backwards and forwards. If there is an automated clutch it will simply engage, and when the cog is selected, disengage that very moment and wont move at all until the accelerator pedal is depressed thus erasing a possibility of creeping very slowly.

The workings of this disasterous gearbox were very well demonstrated by James May in the Top Gear DVD - The Worst Car in the history of the World. Can't find a youtube video on the same, but do check it out if you can.

Regards,
Akash
There will always be a case of poor execution. AFAIK, AMT technology is used by:
Peugeot- 107
Citroen (Sensodrive)- C2,C3, Pluriel and C4
Renault (Quickshift)- Modus, Clio
Smart (Softip)- ForTwo
Fiat (Dualogic)- Punto
Lancia (DFN)- Ypsilon, Musa
Alfa Romeo (Selespeed)- 147, 159, Brera, Spider
Ferrari (F1 Transmission)- F430, 599GTB, 612 Scaglietti
Maserati (Duoselect)- Quattroporte
Opel/Vauxhaull (Easytronic)- Corsa, Meriva, Tigra, Astra, Zafira
Ford (Electronic Shift Transmission)- Fiesta, Fusion
BMW (Sequential Manual Gearbox)- M5, M6
Toyota (Multi Mode)- Auris, Verso, Yaris, Aygo
Honda (i-Shift)- Civic
Mitsubishi (Allshift)- Colt
Suzuki (AMT)- Swift
Lamborghini- Aventador

As you can see, the transmission has become quite popular and is used multiple cars. Technology will only be used if the manufacturer sees its benefits. It will remain only if it succeeds. So yes, some of the implementations have failed but that does not mean the technology is flawed.
The premier rio is quite the stupid car, BUT cars will still remain a good thing though
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Old 6th January 2014, 16:36   #23
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Default re: Maruti to offer AMT (Automated Manual - "EZdrive") in its small cars

Here's something I found on the Magneti Marelli website for the AM transmission.

Automated Manual Transmission (AMT, also called Freechoice) from Magneti Marelli is a electro-hydraulic mechanism for automating manual transmission which derives from Formula 1. It combines comfort of use with a reduction in consumption, and can be applied to any transmission, with production costs that are consequently lower compared to traditional automatic transmissions.



AMT is based on an electronic control unit and a hydraulic system that supervise the use of the clutch and the gear shifting, allowing the driver to change gear without using the clutch, either sequentially or fully automatically.

The device from Magneti Marelli operates on the manual transmission of a car in the same way as the driver would: it opens and closes the clutch, engages and disengages the gears and, when necessary, it also controls the choice of transmission (automatic or sequential mode for changing gear). These three control movements are ensured by three specific hydraulic actuators, controlled by hydraulic electro-valves.

All the components in the hydraulic unit are gathered together in a single kit. It is delivered to the car manufacturer sealed and ready to be installed in the gearbox. Once assembled in the gearbox, the hydraulic kit mechanically interfaces with the gear drive shaft.

The heart and intelligence of the gear control system is the TCU (Transmission Control Unit). Taking into account the driver’s requirements and the operating conditions of the vehicle, it manages the gear changes by controlling the clutch, the gears and the engine.

Thanks to the electronic optimization of the gear change and the coupling with the engine control means the AMT is able to ensure less consumption than a car with manual transmission: lower consumption also means lower emissions, especially of CO2. In some of the best applications of the AMT on mass-production automobiles, a 5% reduction in fuel consumption was recorded compared to the automatic transmission version of the same automobiles, as well as a reduction in emissions equal to 5 g/km of CO2.

The latest generation of AMT is known as “mechatronic”, as for the first time, it combines the electronic control part and the hydraulic actuation part of the transmission in a single kit. This allows considerable improvements to performance, both in terms of speed and comfort when changing gear. This is the latest step in the evolution of a product which was first introduced to the car market with the Ferrari 355 F1 in July 1997. The product is still undergoing “sharp” growth in performance.

Last edited by vinair : 6th January 2014 at 16:39.
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Old 6th January 2014, 16:48   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinair View Post
The heart and intelligence of the gear control system is the TCU (Transmission Control Unit). Taking into account the driver’s requirements and the operating conditions of the vehicle, it manages the gear changes by controlling the clutch, the gears and the engine.
Is that another Mechatronics in making?

Instead of Mechanical electronic Control, it's electronics and hydraulics.
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Old 6th January 2014, 16:51   #25
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Default re: Maruti to offer AMT (Automated Manual - "EZdrive") in its small cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
There will always be a case of poor execution. AFAIK, AMT technology is used by:
Peugeot- 107
Citroen (Sensodrive)- C2,C3, Pluriel and C4
Renault (Quickshift)- Modus, Clio
Smart (Softip)- ForTwo
Fiat (Dualogic)- Punto
Lancia (DFN)- Ypsilon, Musa
Alfa Romeo (Selespeed)- 147, 159, Brera, Spider
Ferrari (F1 Transmission)- F430, 599GTB, 612 Scaglietti
Maserati (Duoselect)- Quattroporte
Opel/Vauxhaull (Easytronic)- Corsa, Meriva, Tigra, Astra, Zafira
Ford (Electronic Shift Transmission)- Fiesta, Fusion
BMW (Sequential Manual Gearbox)- M5, M6
Toyota (Multi Mode)- Auris, Verso, Yaris, Aygo
Honda (i-Shift)- Civic
Mitsubishi (Allshift)- Colt
Suzuki (AMT)- Swift
Lamborghini- Aventador

As you can see, the transmission has become quite popular and is used multiple cars. Technology will only be used if the manufacturer sees its benefits. It will remain only if it succeeds. So yes, some of the implementations have failed but that does not mean the technology is flawed.
The premier rio is quite the stupid car, BUT cars will still remain a good thing though
I am aware of the more expensive applications of the AMT and their success is mainly because of proper execution as you mentioned. I am in no way saying the technology is flawed as such. But Maruti trying to pull off a similar feat ensuring the success of such a transmission in the sort of mainstream cars seems to be a huge challange.

The Magneti Marelli development shows promise, lets see when and how this works out.

Regards,
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Old 6th January 2014, 17:08   #26
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Default re: Maruti to offer AMT (Automated Manual - "EZdrive") in its small cars

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Originally Posted by Astleviz View Post
It seems that this kind of a transmission doesn't stall the engine even if you come to a complete stop in any gear. Not sure how it works but you can read about a bike called TVS Jive that had a similar system.
My friend had a similar bike around 14 years ago (I don't remember which brand). I had a 'test drive' on his bike once. If you put first gear (without the clutch), the bike doesn't move. The bike starts moving only when you give the throttle (like a kinetic honda). When you want to shift to Second, just release the throttle, change the gear, and give the throttle again. I noticed that the bike can be stopped in 4th gear without engine stalling. The gear could also be changed directly from 4th to Nuetral. My friend claimed a mileage of 55 km/liter, at a time when similar bikes (with clutch) used to give 50 km/liter.

Last edited by jinojohnt : 6th January 2014 at 17:12.
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Old 6th January 2014, 17:55   #27
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Default re: Maruti to offer AMT (Automated Manual - "EZdrive") in its small cars

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Originally Posted by jinojohnt View Post
My friend had a similar bike around 14 years ago (I don't remember which brand). I had a 'test drive' on his bike once. If you put first gear (without the clutch), the bike doesn't move. The bike starts moving only when you give the throttle (like a kinetic honda). When you want to shift to Second, just release the throttle, change the gear, and give the throttle again. I noticed that the bike can be stopped in 4th gear without engine stalling. The gear could also be changed directly from 4th to Nuetral. My friend claimed a mileage of 55 km/liter, at a time when similar bikes (with clutch) used to give 50 km/liter.
Most probably, it was a Honda Street as the TVS Jive had not been launched 14 years ago. But then I could be wrong. Was it a proper motorcycle or a scooty like thing that resembled a Bajaj M80? If it was the latter, it was a Honda Street, else a TVS Jive. Both had a clutch lever less mechanism with rotary gears.
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Old 6th January 2014, 18:16   #28
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Default re: Maruti to offer AMT (Automated Manual - "EZdrive") in its small cars

This has been around for a while, and is not really a popular option as a regular MT or AT. Not sure if it helps in reducing manufacturing costs, but the feedback I got from a friend is that it actually makes the driving less enjoyable (she used to drive a Alfa 159 with selespeed). Alfa Romeo has moved to DCT (apart from regular MT) in their latest models like the Mito and Giulietta, but I guess Citroen is still sticking to the EGS in some of their new models.
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Old 6th January 2014, 18:43   #29
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Default re: Maruti to offer AMT (Automated Manual - "EZdrive") in its small cars

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
AFAIK, AMT technology is used by:
...
Suzuki (AMT)- Swift
...
Is it already used in European Swift? Or is it the recently introduced JDM Swift with regenerative braking technology and other stuff?
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Old 6th January 2014, 19:33   #30
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Default re: Maruti to offer Automated Manual ("EZdrive") in small cars*EDIT: Celerio AMT launched

AMT's are the simplest of automatic transmissions and are also the slowest shifting.

I have driven 2 cars with AMT and both were extremely unpleasurable to drive. One was an Alfa Romeo Selespeed (by MM) and the other, a Smart For2. Shift speed was slower than what a half decent driver can manage.

The best system I've seen so far is the E46 M3 SMG (ridden not driven)

My prediction is that the technology will not take off in India unless the latest generation system has gotten better. Pricing is still an unknown at this point but the upside is that FE is not compromised like a traditional planetary gear automatic

The boxes seen on the Street/Jive motorcycles are in no way similar

Last edited by Mpower : 28th January 2014 at 03:02.
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