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Old 20th January 2014, 19:50   #31
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

Kudos to Tata ! I guess there would be 16V + inter-cooled versions with a higher output for a bigger/premium product.

I hope they have put the X1 platform on a diet. If only they can get the petrol engined hatchbacks to weigh around the 950-1000 KG mark with stiffer suspension and a tuned EPS...
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Old 20th January 2014, 19:59   #32
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

Firstly, we don't know what size/weight of the car this engine is going into. Agreed if you shove this in a big car, it won't light any charts on fire, but put this in a little larger than a Alto size car and you have a rocket at hand.
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Old 20th January 2014, 20:28   #33
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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
complex engine + tata R&D+ Tata QC + Tata A.S.S = a disaster waiting to happen. I hope this one fares better than the ill fated dicor!
Do you all realize that the Nano which has an indigenous petrol engine has been absolutely free of engine problems?

It does look like they are on the right track as far as the quality is concerned. I too am a bit disappointed in the engine power. However it's the whole package that counts.
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Old 20th January 2014, 20:57   #34
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

I don't get this whining about the power being only 85 HP.

1> The press release introduces Revotron as a family of engines. So the 85 BHP output is probably just one state of tune, and there are probably other engines in the pipeline as well.

2> As others have pointed out, the flat torque curve and max torque starting from just 1750 RPM are outstanding for a petrol engine. In terms of perceivable performance in 90% of Indian traffic conditions and especially in the city, this is going to rock. How many people are going to rev the engine to the point where max power is utilized, and even for those who want to try that, how much opportunity are they going to get to do that on our roads?

I think TM has taken an important step forward. You have to walk before you can run. And given that they are more comfortable with Diesel engines than petrol, can't fault them for sticking to an engine block derived from one of their tried and trusted engines that they understand well, instead of going for some 'exotic' materials.
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Old 20th January 2014, 21:01   #35
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

First things first. Congratulations to Tata for coming up with a turbo-petrol engine, even if it is based on an old block. There is no doubt that Tata are capable of developing their own advanced technologies to keep pace with global manufacturers. With global emission norms thankfully getting (or about to get) tough on carcinogenic particulate-matter spewing diesel engines which got off lightly till now (thanks to the norms that primarily targeted CO2 reductions so far), petrol engines would find it easier to meet future emission norms than diesels. Tata must have seen the writing on the wall and seem to be preparing for such a scenario by developing their petrol-engine capabilities.

There is a reason why they have tuned the engine to 85PS (which sounds modest for a 1.2 turbo-petrol) especially when naturally-aspirated 1.2 petrols with variable valve timing from Hyundai, Maruti Suzuki and Honda produce 84PS, 87PS and 88PS respectively. Even Chevrolet's 1.2 NA motor without variable valve timing produces 86PS. So why is Tata's turbo-petrol producing an output that is comparable to similar size NA petrols?

It's NOT about the power, it's about the torque! In fact, it's about the torque that can be handled by their TA65 gearbox.

It's a known fact that the TA65 can safely handle only around 140Nm of torque or thereabouts. This gearbox with some tweaks will continue to do duty with this 1.2 Revotron, apart from the 1.4 CR4 and TDI engines.

Tata's 1.4 lit. CR4 (an improved DiCOR engine) is a pretty advanced unit, with 16 valves, twin cams and a variable geometry turbocharger. Yet it churns out a modest 70PS only, which is similar to the old 8v SOHC indirect injection turbo-diesel. This is because the torque had to be limited to 140Nm due to the limitations of the TA65 gearbox. Therefore, Tata concentrated on improving fuel efficiency and drivability of the engine, instead of going for maximum output.

I'm quite sure it's the same with the 1.2 Revotron. Just look at the peak torque, it's the same 140Nm, within what the gearbox can handle. Due to this, the engine's power output seems like a NA motor's one. That's the reason for Tata concentrating on fuel efficiency and drivability, as seen by the flat and wide torque curve. I think the engine can definitely produce more power and torque, but till Tata can get a gearbox that can handle it, this state of tune will have to continue.

Also, one must remember that the 1.2 Revotron uses the 1.2 lit. 475PL Xeta's engine block, which is not an optimised petrol motor, as it shares many things with the 475DL. This 8v SOHC belt-cam iron lump churns out 65PS on the Xeta. It's by no means a high tech petrol like the EcoBoost or the TSI. It doesn't even come close! 85PS is a healthy jump from 65PS nevertheless.

The more important aspect is the flat, wide torque curve. I'm sure it's going to have good drivability, just like the CR4 with a similar torque curve. Fuel efficiency is bound to be very acceptable or even good, which should be quite a feat for a Tata petrol (other than the 624cc twin on the Nano).

The big question is, "Will the early adopters turn out to be beta-testers and guinea pigs, as has been the case with newly developed Tata technologies so far?" While Tata have done well by using reputed component suppliers and utilising the services of globally renowned firms to develop and test this engine, this uncomfortable question will continue to linger on in the minds of those who know and have experienced newly developed technology from Tata. Let's see how this turns out.

Last edited by RSR : 20th January 2014 at 21:12.
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Old 20th January 2014, 21:01   #36
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

1st hurdle crossed by tata. The petrol engine which was something which TATA didnot possess.

2nd hurdle is to have a car which looks not just good but awesome. Styling needs to be brilliant and which will remain fresh for next 4-5 years to come.

3rd hurdle is to make a car light weight but sturdy at the same time. Add to it a suspension which is comfortable but doesnot feel like a boat. The handling of the car has to be spot on.

4th hurdle is to have a first time right car with zero niggles from Day1 and even if there are some minor set it right at the speed of light before anyone can start spoiling TATA's name. A reliable car helps a lot for the manufacturer to make a brand stronger and have higher sales in long term.

5th hurdle is proper market segmentation and brand and image building. This is a major concern for TATA to achieve in a short time. Tata marketting has to think out of the box and come up with really innovative ideas to build the brand and the car image.
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Old 20th January 2014, 21:25   #37
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
Do you all realize that the Nano which has an indigenous petrol engine has been absolutely free of engine problems?

It does look like they are on the right track as far as the quality is concerned. I too am a bit disappointed in the engine power. However it's the whole package that counts.
Yes I do. It also helps that it was not particularly complex, and essentially half of an engine that had gone through a decade or so of testing at the hands of their customers. Hey, don't let my lack of enthusiasm curb you. Even I want more people to buy that engine and pave the way for the late majority/laggards like me
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Old 20th January 2014, 22:04   #38
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_purohit20 View Post
1st hurdle crossed by tata. The petrol engine which was something which TATA didnot possess.

2nd hurdle is to have a car which looks not just good but awesome. Styling needs to be brilliant and which will remain fresh for next 4-5 years to come.

3rd hurdle is to make a car light weight but sturdy at the same time. Add to it a suspension which is comfortable but doesnot feel like a boat. The handling of the car has to be spot on.

4th hurdle is to have a first time right car with zero niggles from Day1 and even if there are some minor set it right at the speed of light before anyone can start spoiling TATA's name. A reliable car helps a lot for the manufacturer to make a brand stronger and have higher sales in long term.

5th hurdle is proper market segmentation and brand and image building. This is a major concern for TATA to achieve in a short time. Tata marketting has to think out of the box and come up with really innovative ideas to build the brand and the car image.
I think you hit the nail on the head. The service centers will automatically be better if they have lesser cars to attend to. I am sure that Tata service centers attend to a lot more cars (as a % of total sales) than say a Maruti/Hyundai/Honda service center.
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Old 20th January 2014, 22:14   #39
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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I think you hit the nail on the head. The service centers will automatically be better if they have lesser cars to attend to. I am sure that Tata service centers attend to a lot more cars (as a % of total sales) than say a Maruti/Hyundai/Honda service center.
I have not mentioned about their service centres, because till date I never had a bad experience with any of them. I was more than satisfied.For the record I own a Vista TDI for last 4 years and touchwood have not had any major problems.
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Old 20th January 2014, 22:14   #40
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

I definitely do hope this is related in some way to the Hotfire engines in development at Jaguar....Tata definitely needs to find some synergies!

When Ford can have the same ecoboost engine in everything from the Focus to the Ecosport, Fusion etc and also supply it to a entry level premium car like the Evoque, surely Tata can do it as well...and in house?!
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Old 20th January 2014, 22:16   #41
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

The 85 bhp may be some tune for a small hatchback. The Renault dci manages 110 bhp in the Fluence but the Micra has to do with 63 horses. But turbolag is better contolled in the Micra which makes it a great city car. Tata being an Indian Company should focus more on low end power delivery and not high BHP figures.
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Old 20th January 2014, 22:16   #42
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

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Originally Posted by amit_purohit20 View Post
I have not mentioned about their service centres, because till date I never had a bad experience with any of them. I was more than satisfied.For the record I own a Vista TDI for last 4 years and touchwood have not had any major problems.
Agreed. I was just alluding to the other big issue with Tata that practically everyone refers to -service center quality. My point is - if the product quality is good in the first place, service center will have lesser problems to deal with.
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Old 20th January 2014, 22:51   #43
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_purohit20 View Post
I have not mentioned about their service centres, because till date I never had a bad experience with any of them. I was more than satisfied.For the record I own a Vista TDI for last 4 years and touchwood have not had any major problems.

Touch wood, same with me. 4 years with Vista TDI and very happy with it. Also, No major issues with service centers too.
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Old 20th January 2014, 23:41   #44
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If the above discussion on the gearbox not supporting the higher torque is true, we are looking at the possibility of Tata first launching the engine and then after a year or two launch a better gearbox. Herein lies a problem. Why can't both be launched together?

Jusr a speculation, mind.
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Old 20th January 2014, 23:42   #45
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Default re: Tata Motors introduces 1.2L turbo-petrol Revotron engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
complex engine + tata R&D+ Tata QC + Tata A.S.S = a disaster waiting to happen. I hope this one fares better than the ill fated dicor!
Very well said, this is a perfect recipe for disaster. Tata motors is too late in coming out with an engine. This engine should have made its entry in the Indian market at least a few years back. Now, they do not have a car to fit this engine. If they put this in the existing lot, it will die a premature death.

Tata's are desperate in everything they are doing to retain the losing car market. Continue experiments after experiments but don't look at the market requirements. The very simple thing that they need to understand is that it is high time now to change the ageing cars with fresher looks and exciting features.

Any further delay of recent launches will put them in tight spot, it is high time that they realise that when they will come up with something interesting the competition would have moved ahead and they will still be left behind.
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